Tar Sands from the air

Do you drive a car too CC?
Maybe he does. I do. (A very small one...) And therefore nature is not threatened by our greedy longing for energy; and global warming due to CO2 is not happening. Or what?
Want to know what a lot of us are upset about up here, take a look. It's like something out of Tolkien's Mordor.
Obscene profit to rule them all. Obscene profit to find them. Obscene profit to bring them all, And in the Darkness... bind them, In the Land of Poorly Regulated Capitalism, Where the shadows lie. :thumb.up: (Smiley missing...)
Please do explain.
You need me to explain what the automobile has meant for geophysical realities? Aside from other ecological realities....? I was asking if you drive a car because if you do you are contributing to the geophysical "realities". Plus other myriad ecological realities. That's just the car facet of the equation. Still don't understand how any of that justifies repeatedly lying to others and one-self about the causes behind this climate change, global warming, weather disruption thingie… Your question is a cheap rhetorical trick to take eyes off the real issue and to help folks justify their continued willfully ignoring it. I am a living member of this society - I have led a material life where I must consume and produce way more garbage than is justified - guilty. Yet, I have led a fairly minimalist life style - am very happily living in a 600 sq foot cabin with my gal. If the County Fair had contest for cleaning your vehicle (mine happens to be a pick-up since I haul around tools and materials) or dishes with the least amount of water I'd be a contender. I do think about my "foot print" and of course could do better if I became an ascetic, but would that really give me any higher moral standing to discuss these issues? In any event, if your question is whether I am aware of my own impacts upon this planet, YES I believe I am aware of that, which is why I've tried so hard to help bring a little change about… but with every year I appreciate better and better what a fool's errand that conceit was. You know VYAZMA, I do enjoy modern marvels and I know that in many ways we are living at the best moment for human enjoyment and fulfillment - But, we're behaving like drunken slobs about it and are destroying the foundation of the very things all of us lucky "haves" love so much and are so proud of.

All we needed was to be a little less greedy
and realize perhaps an atomic engineer might have had better advice for a nation… world, moving into the future of too many people on too small a planet. >:-(
BUT NOOOoooo, America decided it would be better for an Actor, master of make believe to lull us all into thinking endlessly growing consumption was a requirement. Republican/Libertarian Ayn Randian idiots one and all….

sorry, OK, I gotta go anyways, jobza a waiting and this has made me late.

Want to know what a lot of us are upset about up here, take a look. It's like something out of Tolkien's Mordor.
Obscene profit to rule them all. Obscene profit to find them. Obscene profit to bring them all, And in the Darkness... bind them, In the Land of Poorly Regulated Capitalism, Where the shadows lie. :thumb.up: (Smiley missing...) :) Visualize the Koch brothers, in a darkened room, huddled over an electronic screen, depicting graphs of ever-increasing wealth. Each staring, eyes glazed over, each trapped in a personal state of greed and power lust. A bit of drool slithers from their dry and cracking lips, as a croaking sound escapes, barely discernible ... "My Presciousssssss!..."
Still don't understand how any of that justifies repeatedly lying to others and one-self about the causes behind this climate change, global warming, weather disruption thingie…
You don't see how that justifies lying and/or ignorance of the situation? You must not know alot about what lying is and why it's done. There are a few different reasons to deceive. You're lying to yourself and you don't even know it. You consume and drive cars etc... And you're worried about people lying or ignoring Climate Change? Or Pollution?
Your question is a cheap rhetorical trick to take eyes off the real issue and to help folks justify their continued willfully ignoring it.
Yeah, yeah. I'm always using cheap, rhetorical tricks that are rude. The truth always hurts. You're causing Global Warming too CC!! Are you that naive to think that because you contribute just a little bit to Climate Change that that makes it ok?
In any event, if your question is whether I am aware of my own impacts upon this planet, YES I believe I am aware of that, which is why I've tried so hard to help bring a little change about… but with every year I appreciate better and better what a fool's errand that conceit was.
I figured that out when I was 9 years old. The Human race is addicted to oil. The Human Race will use up every last drop and piece of fossil fuel, every last drop. You're like a Crackhead in a Crackhouse who is screaming at everyone because they are burning holes in the carpet and breaking windows of the house, and spraying graffiti on the walls etc... You're screaming for everyone to realize how much they damage the house, but you're in control because you only use a little crack each day. You're habit is under control!

Don’t forget that some of us contribute to CO2 emissions by exhaling. (I admit that I am addicted to exhaling, but I have reason to believe that everyone else is as well.) I guess I should not be so critical of the Koch bros., since I am part of the problem.

Don't forget that some of us contribute to CO2 emissions by exhaling. (I admit that I am addicted to exhaling, but I have reason to believe that everyone else is as well.) I guess I should not be so critical of the Koch bros., since I am part of the problem.
Go ahead and criticize the Kochs. I hope you criticize the millions and millions of people(most likely yourself too.) who use their products. From what I can see it is paper products, fossil fuel products, carpets and plastics, fertilizer and others. So, yeah if you don't use any of that stuff, feel free to criticize.
Don't forget that some of us contribute to CO2 emissions by exhaling. (I admit that I am addicted to exhaling, but I have reason to believe that everyone else is as well.) I guess I should not be so critical of the Koch bros., since I am part of the problem.
Go ahead and criticize the Kochs. I hope you criticize the millions and millions of people(most likely yourself too.) who use their products. From what I can see it is paper products, fossil fuel products, carpets and plastics, fertilizer and others. So, yeah if you don't use any of that stuff, feel free to criticize. Oh, but I do... use gasoline on occasion and probably average several sheets of paper towels a day. I am a hypocritical bastard, to that extent, whenever I bemoan AGW. How about this? Whenever I suggest that the Koch bros are enormously gigantic pieces of crap, let it be tacitly understood that I am a tiny piece of crap, also. I can live with that.
Still don't understand how any of that justifies repeatedly lying to others and one-self about the causes behind this climate change, global warming, weather disruption thingie…
You don't see how that justifies lying and/or ignorance of the situation? You must not know alot about what lying is and why it's done. There are a few different reasons to deceive. You're lying to yourself and you don't even know it. You consume and drive cars etc... And you're worried about people lying or ignoring Climate Change? Or Pollution?
Your question is a cheap rhetorical trick to take eyes off the real issue and to help folks justify their continued willfully ignoring it.
Yeah, yeah. I'm always using cheap, rhetorical tricks that are rude. The truth always hurts. You're causing Global Warming too CC!! Are you that naive to think that because you contribute just a little bit to Climate Change that that makes it ok?
In any event, if your question is whether I am aware of my own impacts upon this planet, YES I believe I am aware of that, which is why I've tried so hard to help bring a little change about… but with every year I appreciate better and better what a fool's errand that conceit was.
I figured that out when I was 9 years old. The Human race is addicted to oil. The Human Race will use up every last drop and piece of fossil fuel, every last drop. You're like a Crackhead in a Crackhouse who is screaming at everyone because they are burning holes in the carpet and breaking windows of the house, and spraying graffiti on the walls etc... You're screaming for everyone to realize how much they damage the house, but you're in control because you only use a little crack each day. You're habit is under control! Does that sort of hysterical outburst make you feel better about yourself? I'm screaming at people who think it is OK to lie about what scientific studies and observations actually say. It really is that simple! You apparently think it is OK to lie about scientific findings and other information - if it's for a good cause, like helping all of us not think about the beautiful mansion we're trashing to hell - just shut up and have another hit, I'll feel so much better, ey V?

You know V, thinking about your analogy it occurs to me that perhaps there is a lesson in there somewhere.
Cause, yea, I could see myself being the freakster running around “screaming at everyone because they are burning holes in the carpet and breaking windows of the house, and spraying graffiti on the walls etc…”
“Dude’s we can have good times but we gotta stop destroying the place! What part don’t you get? If we destroy the place the party is over stupid !”
That’s because beyond really loving that place (read Earth), I appreciate that We The People are totally dependent on a healthy biosphere and relatively predictable and survivable weather systems. I also know that what we are doing will, with the accumulation of time and compounding incidents, create an ever increasingly hostile weather environment.
I may be futile V, but I am not a liar! Even though I drive my pick-up truck… or even, if I’m lucky enough, to take an occasional jet flight {At least I still turn into that enraptured 12 year old, nose pressed to the window during the entire flight absorbing all I can - Have even had some interesting meteorological lessons to deepen my appreciation. Particularly flying out of Florida October 29 as the West coast was dominated by Hurricane Sandy and that stalled south dipping Jet Stream Low Pressure center anomaly over the Eastern states
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/10/30/did-climate-change-cause-hurricane-sandy/ }
Back to the greater Earth, it’s been a wonderful cornucopia of resources and hope for humans to do with as we wanted… {and could puzzle out.}
This human adventure has been an incredible journey of learning how to master various processes and resources our planet possessed,
and people reaping the rewards of that mastery - but we always refused to look at the other side of the ledger sheet. accounts are coming due.
It’s been a fantastic and wonderful journey.
But we remained thoughtless, careless, hubristic, then get all pissed and defensive when someone demands that we treat our planet as a real living entity, or it will hurt us!
And the R/L responds with whatever offensive tactics it takes to avoid the real issues, while yet more irreplaceable time is squandered.
Leave us alone on our road to suicide, is the plea.
But, whatever it’s worth V, I concede - the “who gives a damned, let the party continue” side has won, now we are down to just watching as momentum has it’s way with us, as these brave new years unfold.

Does that sort of hysterical outburst make you feel better about yourself?
What gave you the sense it was hysterical or an outburst?
You apparently think it is OK to lie about scientific findings and other information - if it's for a good cause, like helping all of us not think about the beautiful mansion we're trashing to hell - just shut up and have another hit, I'll feel so much better, ey V?
What? Why do you think I believe it's ok to lie? Seriously, what line of reasoning or logic did you use to come up with that?
You know V, thinking about your analogy it occurs to me that perhaps there is a lesson in there somewhere. Cause, yea, I could see myself being the freakster running around "screaming at everyone because they are burning holes in the carpet and breaking windows of the house, and spraying graffiti on the walls etc…" "Dude's we can have good times but we gotta stop destroying the place! What part don't you get? If we destroy the place the party is over stupid !"
That's only half the analogy CC. The other half is the addiction part. The insidious part is the dependence on oil and coal.(for starters) We have built up a society(economic system)that is dependent on fossil fuels. It will fall without these things. Just like an addict. There is no cold turkey off of oil and coal. It has to be a slow, gradual cessation of these energy products. Wind, Solar, hydro etc(that's the replacement drugs), they aren't even close to replacing fossil fuels. You can't expect the people to stop partying when the supply of drugs(fossil fuels) is extremely easy to get and relatively cheap. But you continue to sit there and yell at people for not seeing the writing on the wall. And you are a user too!!!

Start your own denial thread VYAZMA, this is for a legitimate discussion of the ongoing ecological disaster that is the tar sands projects.

VYAZMA, I get your point that we’re all hypocrites. And in a sense, you’re right.
But the sad truth is that we, the average folks, really don’t have a lot of choice in the matter. The only way for someone living in an advanced nation to wash their hands of the sin of environmental destruction would be to live in a little cabin, off the grid, in the woods like the Unabomber. That might make us feel better in some ways, but it would accomplish nothing.
Us average folks are quite frankly trapped in a system of environmental destruction. Few of us could hold a job if we didn’t drive. If we chose to live in a tent with no power, most of us would be social outcasts. Few communities or cities officially allow people to live in tents within city limits, so we’d be separated from the rest of society. What good would that do?
As well, many of us struggling with low incomes practically have to shop at places like WalMart to make ends meet. We may be hypocrites, but we’re also victims, trapped in a system and society that practically forces us to live a lifestyle that is destructive to the environment.
But saying that we’re no different from the Koch brothers and the Big Oil corporations who buy off politicians and block any effort at positive change on a societal level is ridiculous and unfair–and irrational. If we’re hypocritical drug addicts passing judgement on our dealers, then their the big time dealers and distributors who got us hooked at birth before we had any chance or ability to say no.
The bottom line is, if we want to change things, we must focus our righteous anger on the corrupt politicians who stand in the way of doing so, and the amoral corporations who control them. Nitpicking the lifestyle of the little guy is misguided and unproductive. It’s also a common tactic of conservative pundits.
And, it’s a textbook fallacy of argument–commonly known as the “Tu Quoque Fallacy” (a type of ad hominem argument which translates directly as “you too”), or more simply as the “Appeal To Hypocrisy Fallacy”.
So let’s move on to more productive forms of discussion and debate…

The amount of money spent in the US alone to prevent the kind of systematic approach needed to deal with the issue, is staggering. The Koch brothers alone have spent over $60 million funding Global Warming denial, companies like ExxonMobil and others have also contributed massive amounts of resources to distorting the facts in protection of profits. How you can you blame individuals who in many cases have been scammed into believing there isn’t any such thing as Global Warming.
Fossil fuel companies also spend large amounts in directly lobbying federal politicians to make sure that meaningful legislation isn’t passed.
This is just one sick example.
http://www.thenation.com/article/dick-gephardts-spectacular-sellout

While Gephardt spent most of his twenty-eight years in national Democratic politics quietly promoting and voting with establishment interests, he is best known for his friendship with labor and advocacy for universal healthcare during two presidential runs. In 2003 he harshly condemned corporate crime, which he said "ruined people's lives for selfishness and greed," and launched his candidacy claiming, "Every proposal I'm making, every idea I'm advancing has a single, central purpose: to revive a failing economy and give working Americans the help and security they need." So why, six years later, was he on Capitol Hill representing one of the biggest players in the largest economic crisis since the Great Depression? And further, why was he recently working for Visa to kill credit card reform, helping Peabody Energy stymie climate change legislation and consulting for UnitedHealth Group alongside Tom Daschle to block meaningful healthcare reform?
That year alone over $100 million was spent on lobbying by the fossil fuel sector to prevent any real action, who can reasonably be expected to counter that. A few people as engaged as CC stopping using any form of fossil fuel power won't make a bit of difference when the majority of people have been convinced to some degree that the science on Global Warming is unsound and when many politicians and powerful lobbyists like Dick Gephardt are working hand in glove with industry in what is the biggest fraud in history. I think it's more than a little sadistic to rub someone's face in how ineffectual they are in the face of such odds. I also think it's noble as heck that some people take all this flak in stride and carry on in what is probably one of the most important and moral causes in our species history.
What? Why do you think I believe it's ok to lie?
Actually, with all due respect, regarding your AGW attitude, yes you do seem to accept that it's ok to lie and misrepresent scientific findings and facts.
What? Why do you think I believe it's ok to lie?
Actually, with all due respect, regarding your AGW attitude, yes you do seem to accept that it's ok to lie and misrepresent scientific findings and facts. What's my AGW "attitude" CC?
Start your own denial thread VYAZMA, this is for a legitimate discussion of the ongoing ecological disaster that is the tar sands projects.
If you drive a car, among other things, than you're partially responsible for the ecological disaster. That disaster is there to ensure that you will be able to fill your gas tank up at any cost.
So let's move on to more productive forms of discussion and debate...
You give a soliloquy, and then it's time to move on to more productive forms of discussion? We're trapped. More of the "victim" thing from you again Bugrib. You are not trapped. Unless you call your own denial the trap. Give up your car. Give up 95% of the products you buy. Or we can all listen to each other rant and rave about pollution while we create it ourselves. That's real productive discussion. How many of you have ever been in an oilfield? A trainyard? The trucking industry? Coal Plants? Do you know how much fossil fuels are being burnt up each day? And it's all to get you I-Pads, and clothes, and car parts, and food, and every single last thing you have in your possession. When you go out to your car and drive somewhere, you are turning the drill pipe in the ground. You're injecting the fracking fluids in the shale. It's that simple. So you can all look around at everything in your house, and the car in your driveway, and the electricity at the touch of a switch... It all comes from fossil fuels. All of it.(and yes, even if your electricity comes from hydro, wind, solar or nukes, it wouldn't be possible without fossil fuels.) Your blood may as well be crude oil.