Socialism v Communism

Anyway hooroo!

https://youtu.be/2yP1vX_MYRc

I’ll tell you right now, with what little I’ve watch and looking at their channel, the video has an agenda and is propaganda. It is YouTube and not a reliable source to learn about a topic such as Social. Now, I need to go to work again to today, but have the next two days off, but if there is even one violation of the rules or if you try me again, I will shut this thread down. I also suggest using more reliable sources if you really want a serious conversation about Socialism and Communism (two different forms of government). Wickedpedia and YouTube are not reliable sources.

Here are some resources to get started on better quality sources concerning Socialism which is NOT Communism and is far better than Capitalism:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/socialism/

Two people I admire and are admitted Democratic Socialist are Bernie Sanders and AOC, but still even there are many U.S. citizens who confuse Socialism and Communism so it’s not surprise that there are some on this forum who do the same. There are some programs in the U.S., as well as other countries, that are Socialistic, such as Medicare/Medicaid in the U.S. and socialized medicine in other countries such as Canada, the UK, the Netherlands, and the Norwegian countries to name a few.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/243362/meaning-socialism-americans-today.aspx

Here’s on that is borderline, but still has some reliable info at least on the Repug party and how they attempt to weaponize Democratic Socialism, making it something it is not:

https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/republicans-have-history-weaponizing-socialism-do-they-understand-what-it-n1244465

Now here in a couple U.S. websites concerning the topic:

The Democratic Socialists of America (should say U.S., but OK, whatever. That’s another topic) and Bernie Sanders, AOC and some others are part of:

https://www.dsausa.org/

verses which I can’t name anyone in the U.S. government is part of:

https://www.cpusa.org/ (which is more extreme, but there are differences that make them not one and the same)

Now the Repug party insists on Racism, inequality (supporting only the rich and greedy corporations), and promoting this agenda because the two group line their pockets. Again, the Republic is not a democracy and borders on Communism where the government owns everything, instead of Socialism where the citizens own everything (to simplify) and even Nazism. I’ll take Democratic Socialism over that crap any day.

I forgot four more links on the topic so really quickly and then I’m off for the day and will discuss this more later:

http://www.americansocialists.org/

and

https://www.socialistpartyusa.net/

and

http://thelaborparty.org/

and

https://www.americanpartyoflabor.com/

Not quite done and then we can discuss for the next two days that I’m off

http://www.slp.org/facts.htm

http://www.americansocialists.org/index.html

https://thelaborparty.us/

Of course I do have more, because I have done my research on this.

@mriana. I have done my research on this.
Which is what it comes down to in the end. Doing one's research, following up on tips and getting the details from first sources and authoritative sources.

Is Social Security socialism? If so, why not? As in what’s so bad about it.

 

A sober socialistic system sure sounds better than the trumpian thugocracy being pushed upon Americans by foreign and domestic brainwashers, with nothing but their own personal interests in mind, people who possess no conception of, or interest in, a healthy democratic society.

:Again, the Republic is not a democracy and borders on Communism where the government owns everything, instead of Socialism where the citizens own everything (to simplify) and even Nazism. I’ll take Democratic Socialism over that crap any day."

Why do you say this and where did you get this from?

Exactly @citizenchallengev3 and yes, Social Security is a socialistic/social program, as well as the fire department, police, food stamps, etc. Any program for the people that is paid with taxes is a socialistic program. It’s not bad at all.

@johncitizen No one said a Republic was a democracy. The U.S. is said to be a Republic. That’s not a democracy because our government has been in the hands of the rich and powerful most owning large corporations. That’s what a Republic is and the Repugs are paid to do the bidding of the rich.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/republic-government

Right now the Repugs are trying to make it so only certain people can vote. In the past only white with property (WASPs) could vote and the Repugs want that sort of a Republic with no democracy to speak of.

Why do you say communism is where govt owns everything?

https://thismatter.com/economics/economic-systems.htm. offers some definitions:

 

Communism, also known as a command system, is an economic system where the government owns most of the factors of production and decides the allocation of resources and what products and services will be provided. ...

 

Although Marx and Engels believed that property should belong to society, they did not really give much thought to how economic decisions would be made. Communist countries, particularly Russia and China, decided on a centrally planned economy (aka command economy). The centrally planned economy had the following major attributes:

The government owns all means of production, which is managed by employees of the state.
These employees operate under party-appointed economic planners, who set output targets and prices and frequently interfered with the operations to satisfy personal or party desires.
And because communist economies are not efficient and because of the Communist Party’s desire to retain power, most economic resources were devoted to industrialization and to the military, depriving consumers of food and other necessary products, causing intense competition for these limited necessities, where many people had to wait in long lines for common consumer goods, such as toilet paper.

But from ground level thing look differently. There was a nifty joke going around Budapest in the 70s:

What's the difference the communistic system and the capitalistic system?

The capitalistic economy is founded on exploiting one’s fellow humans, in the communistic system, it’s exactly the other way around.


There was another one:

“Budapest Liberty Statue”

Do you know why she's holding that leaf up so high?

It’s made of gold, and Russians have over run the city, so she’s keep it out of their greedy grasp.

@citizenchallengev3 you forgot to quote this from your link above along with what you quoted about Communism, which would have answered johncitizen1’s question very well:

The definition of socialism varies widely, and many people use it synonymously for communism, but it is often distinguished as an economic system between communism and capitalism. Socialism is the social and economic doctrine that espouses public over private ownership and control of property and natural resources. Socialists argue that since everyone contributes to society in the form of work, therefore everyone should benefit from it.

Notice it says “the public owns” unlike Communism where the government owns. It also says Socialism “espouses public over private ownership”. Communism the government owns everything and Socialism the people own everything. There is no private ownership. Native Americans ran things a lot like this before the white man came along. The idea of owning land was foreign to them, because you cannot pick land up and take it with you. I don’t even understand the idea of “owning land” either, for the very same reason and I wasn’t even raised on tribal lands nor was I raised in Native American culture. Maybe one could pick up the dirt, but that’s not the land. We live on the land, but we can’t actually own it.

Again, as the link shows, Socialism and Communism are two different forms of governing and not the same thing.

1 Like

Public ownership means citizens vote for officials who will operate the “means of production” for the benefit of their constituents. There is nothing inherently superior about that compared to private ownership as elected officials can be corrupt, incompetent, out of touch, etc, and the public can be stupid, lazy and irresponsible. Just a quick look at the world proves that public ownership only works in small, intelligent, homogenous societies. Even in those countries the success is moderate.

Also, socialism and communism are not government types.

@thatoneguy It is true that humans are just plain stupid, lazy, and irresponsible, but you haven’t said why you think Socialism is bad. Countries who run things via a Republic or by Capitalism don’t have tremendous success and are also prone to corruption and the U.S. is proof to the corruption and running things into the ground. The U.S. was never great and the way things were going with the dotard, who was a wannabe dictator, it was never going to be great, but having things lean more towards Democratic Socialism, as Bernie Sanders et al suggests, it might be better than it has been. It would be a lot better than the dotard’s dictatorship or Reagan’s “Trickle Down Theory” (which it didn’t) or the Shrub’s insanity. Our economy improved under Democrat presidents and got worse under Repug presidents. Most Democrat’s ideas are socialistic or at least lean in that direction.

The USA is the most the powerful, influential nation in modern history and is a republic with a capitalist economy. It has only recently begun to decline.

As for why I think socialism is bad – I don’t think it’s necessarily bad. I just know socialism will never work in a country like America because we are too big and too diverse.

As for why I think socialism is bad — I don’t think it’s necessarily bad. I just know socialism will never work in a country like America because we are too big and too diverse.
Perhaps you may not realize that the most successful federal programs are socialistic in principle. The reason is that Social Programs are not-for-profit programs . Pooling resources to benefit all works if you remove the profit motive from the equation.

Social Security would still be solvent if it had not been completely exhausted from borrowing it’s funds to be replaced only by IOU’s . Remember Al Gore’s promise that as president he would put social security reserves in a “lock box” and make them untouchable except for the purpose they were intended. He didn’t become president and the Capitalist system kept robbing SS.

In Europe and Canada socialized single payer Healthcare has resulted in medical coverage for all persons at much lower medical costs at the same time than the for-profit medical system in the US. Pooling resources and competitive bidding for National contracts creates lower prices and better uniform services.

The problem with capitalistic systems is that they are always designed to make a profit, and at the same time removing a portion of the economic system into private holdings doing nothing but earning interest and further depleting the market of economic stimulus. Note that “unearned income” is taxed at a lower rate than “earned income”. If you can make more more money by putting it in the bank than producing goods what would you do?

I saw an interview once of a large farmer who had received a hefty tax refund under an economic stimulus plan. When asked what he was going to do with this windfall and how many additional workers he was going to employ with that money, he replied honestly ; “I’m putting it in the bank, I have all the help I need and I’m not gonna pay extra hands to stand around doing nothing. At least in the bank it’ll earn interest.”

He was making a profit for not doing anything except putting the money into savings. In the mean time that money was removed out of the market.

Can you blame him?

What is the result of unregulated Capitalism ? Feast you eyes on this;

The money needed to pay for the pandemic is actually close at hand, hidden away in offshore financial centers (OFCs), more commonly known as tax havens. OFCs are estimated to hold up to $36 trillion in cash, gold, and securities, not including tangible assets such as real estate, art, and jewels.Jul 16, 2020
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/07/16/tax-havens-apple-costs-pandemic/#

Compare this to ;

Now at over $28 trillion, the national debt poses a risk to every American’s future. Understand why the debt is so high, why it matters, and what we can do about it.
https://www.pgpf.org/national-debt-clock?

Interest paid on the national debt:

Last year, the U.S. spent $430 billion on interest payments alone. This means that every year, tax payers are spending $3,500 just on interest payments. This is money that isn’t going to pay for roads, bridges, education, medical research or defense.
https://informationstation.org/kitchen_table_econ/the-u-s-is-now-18-trillion-in-debt/?

This is not a result of regulated socialism. It is a result of unregulated Capitalism!

Mriana

Thats a bourgeoisie right wing spin on what communism is. You will never find such a definition on a communist, marxist , socialist or anarchist site.

@thatoneguy

The USA is the most the powerful, influential nation in modern history and is a republic with a capitalist economy. It has only recently begun to decline.

Very much on the decline. I’d say it’s been on the decline since the 80s, but the dotard greatly sped up that process. However, I wouldn’t say it’s the most powerful nation. China owns us economy wise, despite the U.S. being a Capitalistic ran Republic. As a Republic, it’s the rich, with greedy corporations, who have the power and run the government and that’s basically what a Republic is- a government ran by a small group of people, in this case the rich, who would love to make us all slaves.

I just know socialism will never work in a country like America because we are too big and too diverse.

I think it would, but there would be some who would not like it.

@write4u

Perhaps you may not realize that the most successful federal programs are socialistic in principle. The reason is that Social Programs are not-for-profit programs . Pooling resources to benefit all works if you remove the profit motive from the equation.

Exactly and you named one- social security and that’s one reason why those on this forum seem to object to the idea because they believe Socialism is Communism (it’s not) I tell them then don’t get Social Security or they’d be a hypocrite.

He was making a profit for not doing anything except putting the money into savings. In the mean time that money was removed out of the market.

Can you blame him?

What is the result of unregulated Capitalism ?

Greed. Pure greed. That and a form of legalized slavery, especially since greedy corporations don’t want to pay anyone a living wage. That and greedy corporations basically run the government because they pay Repugs (especially) to run the country as they tell them to run it and they also get rich off this set up, due to their greed. Capitalism feeds off greed and if one isn’t greedy like Capitalists want, then those people are not aren’t worth their time.

This is not a result of regulated socialism. It is a result of unregulated Capitalism!

Exactly! Have you noticed the national debt goes down when a Dem is in office and up when a Repug is in office? It’s because most Repugs are paid off by large greedy corporations to do their bidding and allow them to not only enslave people but also allow them to run amok and raise the debt. It’s all about greed.