On the question of ultimate reality: Specifically for Xain

General Discussion
101

I know this has nothing to do with what Xain is going through, and it’s a totally a off-topic non-sequitur, but imma cut & paste excerpts from one of the articles I’d referenced earlier:

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Many of us grapple with existential questions about the meaning of life, the universe, existence, and so on, at one point in our lives. …

Steve, a 26 year-old computer programmer: “I can’t stop thinking about why we’re all here and whether there’s any purpose to life. I keep going over it in my mind all day long. I have continual thoughts of how one day I’ll be dead and no one will remember me. It will be as if I never existed. Then I ask myself, what is the use of doing anything if we’re all going to die anyway?”

Existential OCD involves intrusive, repetitive thinking about questions which cannot possibly be answered, and which may be philosophical or frightening in nature, or both. The questions usually revolve around the meaning, purpose, or reality of life, or the existence of the universe or even one’s own existence.

These same questions might come up in a university philosophy or physics class. However, most people can leave such classes or read about these topics and move on to other thoughts afterwards. Similar to other forms of OCD, individuals with Existential OCD can’t just drop these questions.

Existential obsessions are often difficult to recognize, as they might seem like the questions many of us wonder about sometimes and then move on from with a shrug of the shoulders. Existential obsessions might also be confused with the kind of thoughts people experience when they are depressed, continually going over negative thoughts about how meaningless life may seem. But, Existential OCD is far more complicated than that.

Individuals with existential obsessions typically spend hours going over and over these questions and ideas, and may become extremely anxious and depressed. When they do seek help, they may be seen as suffering from worries or existential fears, or be misdiagnosed as suffering from Generalized Anxiety Disorder. However, when a person battles ongoing intrusive, repetitive, persistent, anxiety-producing, doubtful thoughts of this nature, it is most likely Existential OCD.

Kristin, a 34 year-old homemaker: “I can’t get the idea out of my head that everything I see isn’t real. How do I know I’m not really in a coma, or else dreaming, and that my whole life is imaginary? I start to wonder if my husband and children are real and it frightens me terribly.”

Even if you do not have Existential OCD, you may have had existential obsessions at one point in time, spending hours analyzing why you are having your particular thoughts and questioning exactly what these thoughts may mean. This is just another type of compulsion that accompanies obsessive thoughts, and never leads to any true answers.

When you have OCD, your obsessive doubts cannot be argued with, reasoned out, analyzed, or questioned — this is especially the case with Existential OCD. There are never any lasting answers to obsessive questions. Whatever answers you may come up with can last a few minutes, but then quickly slip away in the face of newer doubts. The doubts may vary a bit, but are mostly variations on a theme.

You may wear yourself out trying to find answers, or trying to get the thoughts out of your head, but these are the worst ways to deal with OCD. As mentioned previously, there are no answers to existential or any other obsessive questions.

Marty, a 19 year-old college student: “Every day I spend hours looking at myself in the mirror and I wonder – Is this really me? How do I know? What makes me, me, and how do I know I am who I think I am? How do I know the things I feel are my own real feelings, or that my thoughts are my own real thoughts? I also keep thinking about how vast the universe is and how we’re all just tiny specks that are meaningless. I keep thinking that because we are so insignificant, nothing we do matters, so why not give up on everything?”

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102

@lausten

At least you are stuck on Buddhism, you could have made much worse choices for something to be obsessed with.
While, as Viktor Frankl explained, suffering is relative, I also thought the above. In my case, I feared that being wrong would result in my suffering eternal conscious torment in a literal lake of fire after death, or the awareness that my loved ones were suffering this fate. This led to particular decisions I made about marriage and my income, and pretty much literally did destroy my life.
103

I had that thought also. In fact, I thought it was a quote from me. But I guess that Lausten somehow navigated my mental landscape and copied that thought (or maybe vice a versa, maybe I…).

104

BTW, Tee, I am glad you came back from that life destruction.

105

Usually I think going agnostic would be like coming from something like Christianity or Islam, not really BUddhism. But then I don’t really hear much about the people who tried it and it didn’t work, and I find Buddhism rather confused with it’s teachings. They say that it goes beyond logic and the conceptual mind and that words are just the finger pointing at the moon. But I think deep down they are mistaken about their experience and revelation. But they sound confident and they are transformed by it so it’s hard for me to ignore them. I wish I could, because I can honestly say my life would have been better not knowing any of this or reading it.

106

Thanks, @TimB

The worst part about it is that it affected all my major decisions for years. It’s hard to not imagine how different my life would have been, had treatment been available to me earlier in my life. Also, OCD tends to be a shape-shifter, and now I have a whole 'nother type. But the religious rumination vanished 5 years ago now, and never came back. I’m grateful. I suspect a whole lot of depression, anxiety disorder and suicidality out there is poorly-understood, undiagnosed forms of OCD. I think I would have rather had ANYTHING else.

107

I wish I could let the rumination go but much of what it says sticks with me and when I share it others aren’t impacted by it.

 

Like me when they say the self is a process but not an entity and that focusing on your wishes and preferences won’t make you happy. So after that all I can think about is my likes and wishes being an enemy of me, how can I live like that?

108

Excellent article with an excellent author. There are several good points in there, but I’m going to respond to the stuff about obsession, near the end.

When he talks about our obsession with maintaining the self and then about his experiences of a greater self, he slips into claiming the one thing, the greater self, being better than the self defined by our bodies. However, he gives no evidence to why that not-self is greater. He’s talking about a peak experience. He gets it through meditation, but I’ve experienced it in neighborhood clean ups and football games. He says not experiencing this is denying reality, reality defined by Buddhism, again no evidence for what reality is or why these unusual peak experiences are real and sitting on my porch drinking coffee is not real.

In my opinion, it’s all real. He focuses on the Darwinian need to see ourselves as separate so we will want to pass on our genes. Our desires for food and sex are in line with that. He’s right that if we constantly let go of our sense of self and chanted together and felt at one with the universe, we would be less interested in raising children and building bridges. What he never seems to get is that is exactly why we don’t live that way.

109

@snowcity Curious. What would the “truth” of Buddhism mean, for you?

Do you believe there’s only one objective truth in the universe that applies to everyone, Buddhist or not?

Or is that "truth important to understand only from within the Buddhist paradigm?

 

110

“…So after that all I can think about is my likes and wishes being an enemy of me, how can I live like that?”

If your sexual desires are your enemy you could have angry sex with them. Then you could have make up sex with them. Your enemy (sexual desires) would have won but you could have had fun in the meantime and hopefully wind up making peace.

111

It’s more like the one truth that applies to all and everything, which is what Buddhism seems to argue. That the world is perfect is another.

112

You didn’t answer the question.

Is “the one truth that applies to all and everything” the “only one objective truth in the universe that applies to everyone, Buddhist or not”?

113

That I don’t know. I know they say it is so and expound on it and how science is proving it (though I’m not entirely sure), but I don’t know if it is the one truth but they make it feel like it is so.

114
I don’t know if it is the one truth but they make it feel like it is so.
Everyone I know feels this way. Not Buddhism for everyone, but about whatever truth they prefer to focus on. Doubt is part of belief. And if you take a strictly scientific view of the world, then you know that you can't prove existence at all. Some people never think about it and function just fine. Others consider it for a bit, then realize they have to accept the limitations of knowledge and get on with life. To me, that's what Buddhism tells us. If says you are suffering because you are worried that you should be doing something to make your life better, but actually, that best life is available to you at every moment.
115

But I value certainty which usually poses a problem. I don’t function well with doubt and ambiguity.