On the question of ultimate reality: Specifically for Xain

General Discussion
41

@3point14rat

 

 

It’s something that’s there whether you want it to be or not, and, oddly, you don’t always not want it to be there.
Yes!!
it’s such a big thing that not worrying about it seems wrong in some way.
Yes. You are AFRAID to NOT worry about it.
serial rapist in another country...So you willingly obsess over her safety.
 

Almost.

The thing that would make this OCD (rather than anxiety or delusion) would be the rumination loop over needing to know a certain detail that would relieve your anxiety, but you can’t know it.

So imagine the real rapist had a fixation on redhead girls, and your daughter is a redhead. Someone with OCD might spend hours a day researching rapists in America to find out which ones like red hair, and needing to plat every one of them on a map.

But not all news reports contain all details. So it would be impossible to know each and every redhead-killer.

So you study and study on Google, police reports, microfiche, etc. And listen to every crime podcast about redhead-killers…once you know each one of them, you can keep your daughter safe. (But you can’t.) See?

 

42

@3point14rat
@lausten
@snowcity
@timb

A really important & interesting thing about Scrupulocity, Existential OCD & related types

The OCD exists separately from an individual’s beliefs and opinions.

This makes it distinct from, say, religious fanaticism or brainwashing.

You realize the level of your rumination is irrational, and possibly, you don’t believe it at all.

A significant minority (over 1/3) of people with Religious Scrupulocity aren’t religious, and weren’t even raised in religious homes…like atheists fixated on the idea that they sold their soul to Satan.

Others are religious, but are obsessed about something from another religion…like Catholics fixated on the idea that they need to know the number of Hindu gods.

They get the “detail” from the culture around them, but they weren’t “indoctrinated” as kids. The idea just pops into their head one day and gets stuck there.

This REALLY suggests to me that it IS a disease, a physical brain thing. There is some research into viruses and parasites, and symptoms sonetimes begin after strep throat. Not saying you “catch” the IDEA, but that a “bug” creates a “stickiness” in your brain and the next thought gets trapped there.

Another really common one is an obsession about same-sex attraction in people who don’t personally view homosexuality as wrong. It isn’t being gay that would bother them, it’s being unable to ever stop wondering if they are gay.

In OCD groups I have seen people say, “My family is tolerant and I have gay friends. It would be no problem if I was gay. So if I could just BE gay, so I could stop worrying about it, that would be great. But I can’t.”

Often with these forms of OCD, it isn’t just the worry… it’s the worry ABOUT the worry.

I suffered this for decades before I read this and went, Oh my God…it’s a thing!! It’s a thing that people HAVE!!

You can see why so many suffer in silence, never even telling their shrink. I suspect it is MUCH more common than we know, and likely fuels a lot of other MH issues including suicide.

I want everyone to know!!!

43

I think the problem with perfection is how you define it because perfect is a matter of perspective, or in the case of Buddhism everything is perfect (to paraphrase).

 

 

But what makes it all worse is that even though I have compulsion to read this stuff or endlessly think about it to the point that I NEED to know the result is that when I cave I am given a new bit of information that is hard to disprove because it sounds and is likely right. Like not being attracted to people but just abstract qualities or how we don’t miss people just the times we had or the traits exhibited. Because the more I ponder the less I gather information about the opposite side and the more I end up proving BUddhism right. Then I’m left in a mire of trying to cling to my old false beliefs just because I was happier that way rather then the new true ones.

44

@snowcity

Yes, I understand the way you feel about Buddhism.

But how do you feel about my thoughts on why you keep thinking about it?

This is personal, and you don’t have to answer here if you don’t want to. Up to you.

I have no idea of your sex, age, or what country you live in. But I am wondering … When I talk about OCD (Obessive-Compulsive Disorder), is that something you have ever heard of?

Have you have ever been diagnosed with classic OCD, or had symptoms of it even if you were never diagnosed? Some examples of it may be:

  • Repeated hand washing, locking and relocking doors or touching things in a certain order
  • Extreme or exaggerated fears of contamination, family members being hurt or harmed or doing harm themselves
  • Use of magical thinking, such as, “If I touch everything in the room, Mom won’t be killed in a car accident”
  • Repeatedly seeking assurances about the future
  • Intolerance for certain words or sounds
  • Repeatedly confessing “bad thoughts” such as thoughts that are mean (thinking a family friend is ugly), thoughts that are sexual (imagining a classmate naked) or violent (thinking about killing someone)
 

Because sometimes, people have various forms of OCD at different points in their lives. Not always but sometimes.

Do those symptoms remind you of a parent, sibling or other family member? OCD also may be partly genetic.

Or, have you dealt with anxiety, depression or substance abuse?

Again, Xain: You can answer these questions in your head, if you want.

But at this point, I am not really interested in hearing more about why you believe Buddhism seems right.

I understand that is your obsession. I don’t need to know more about it.

I know that I can’t “diagnose” someone online, and I am not a doctor. But … you have Existential OCD. Period.*

You might be stuck in this Buddhism thought loop for 20 years. Or you could wake up tomorrow, with an obsession about something else. That is how OCD works.

But I think it is very important for you to seek medical care. Okay? I’ve done my job here ?

 

*Damn, I could have charged you $2,000 for this

 

 

 

45
But I think it is very important for you to seek medical care. Okay? I’ve done my job here ?
You haven't because no one has answered my questions about the truth of their statements.

Yes part of it all is that there always seems to be some kind of new disaster that I obsess about once one is gone, well more like buried. But it’s more like questions that impact how I see the world or change my interactions.

But what makes it all worse is that even though I have compulsion to read this stuff or endlessly think about it to the point that I NEED to know the result is that when I cave I am given a new bit of information that is hard to disprove because it sounds and is likely right. Like not being attracted to people but just abstract qualities or how we don’t miss people just the times we had or the traits exhibited. Because the more I ponder the less I gather information about the opposite side and the more I end up proving BUddhism right. Then I’m left in a mire of trying to cling to my old false beliefs just because I was happier that way rather then the new true ones.
The problem that I reference in this paragraph has huge implications for my interactions and experience with intimate relationships in that the nature of them might not be what everyone has told me to be true, which is something you fail to grasp in your haste for a diagnosis. It's more like the compulsion drives me to know what they think, but the real problem is the truth of the claims after that. If you don't have an answer for their claims then you aren't helping and it was the same with professionals, they had no answers for the claims of Buddhism and could only apologize.
46
You haven’t because no one has answered my questions about the truth of their statements.
Careful Xian.

Lots of people have spent lots of time trying to help you, especially Tee, who’s done a mountain of work on your behalf in the last few weeks. She spent hours of her personal time researching and spelling out in great detail what is at the root of your problem. And she did it in spite of your attitude and not knowing you at all.

My desire to help you ended long ago when you bashed everything I said without giving any of it a second of thought. This is my warning for you to finally think about the feelings of others for once, before everyone quits on you too.

I understand you have a problem, but even you know there are limits to how badly you can treat people before you destroy any connection or relationship with them.

47

Hey, has anybody here ever seen the film “Leaving Las Vegas?”

Nicholas Cage plays an alcoholic who, faced with a turning point in his life, chooses to double down, drive to Las Vegas, and literally drink himself to death. Even though people offer help, even though he has options, his decision is set in stone.

It’s one of the most depressing films I have ever seen. I remember how helpless it felt to sit in the audience and watch a man, surrounded by people who want to help him, self-destruct by choice.

Ironically, the author of the book the film is based on committed suicide as soon as he sold the rights.

Wow … that film is from 1995!! I have not thought of it in years. But somehow, it came into my mind just now. I wonder why?

 

48
Lots of people have spent lots of time trying to help you, especially Tee, who’s done a mountain of work on your behalf in the last few weeks. She spent hours of her personal time researching and spelling out in great detail what is at the root of your problem. And she did it in spite of your attitude and not knowing you at all.

My desire to help you ended long ago when you bashed everything I said without giving any of it a second of thought. This is my warning for you to finally think about the feelings of others for once, before everyone quits on you too.


Tee hasn’t helped because they aren’t getting the root of the problem which is the claims of the statements after I cave to the urge to look things up. That is the problem because I can’t forget what I have read or the implications it has on my life.

You quit because you had no real arguments against anything I said besides just calling them nonsense (which spoiler alert is not an argument).

She isn’t getting at the root not even close and trying to site that movie trailer as though it’s even relevant to this problem just shows how far off the mark they are.

49

@snowcity

(I know I should really just walk away at this point, but… I actually find this pretty intriguing.

Xain, re. the movie clip… I was making a joke, mostly for @3point14rat. I’m sorry.

You have written:

》...the real problem is the truth of the claims after that. If you don’t have an answer for their claims then you aren’t helping and it was the same with professionals, they had no answers for the claims of Buddhism and could only apologize.</p><p>Tee hasn’t helped because they aren’t getting the root of the problem ...《</p>
I owe you an apology, Xain.

When I started this thread just for you, I thought your problem was your endless ruminating about the truths of Buddhism. I thought the problem you wanted to solve was what was going on in your mind.

 

But I misunderstood. Your problem has nothing to do with you, or your mind, at all.

Your problem is“out there.” Your problem is much more important than anyone else’s, because it’s “that” and not “you.”

You will settle for nothing less than knowing the ultimate, objective truth about Buddhism.

And you are angry at me, at the other people on this forum, and at the professionals you’ve seen, because we have not solved that problem for you.

We have all failed miserably at knowing these truths and verifying them for you.

But … Xain… why did you come HERE to find that truth? Or to professionals (I assume mental health)?

Why would you think any of us could solve that problem for you? (If you needed your car repaired, would you take it to a bakery? And then say, “YOU JUST DONT GET IT!”

(Though I did meet the Dalai Lama for about two seconds 20 years ago! He is a sweet little man and blessed my stepson.)

Xain, have you visited a Buddhist temple near you and talked to anyone there? Or attended a Buddhist retreat? Have you had coffee with any professors of Buddhist philosophy?

Unless you live in an extremely remote area, you should be able to do stuff like this.

When I wanted to know the truth about Christianity, I did exactly that, for several years. I traveled around and met with pastors, ministers and priests. I went on retreats and I fasted.

When you really want to know the truth about something, you go to people who have some expertise in the subject

So, Xain, you COULD do all of that.

But I suspect that if you did, you would find out what I did: None of the “experts” will agree with each other on the truth, AND be able to convince you.

Because literally no one in history has been able to verify the absolute truth about this, and I’m not sure why you or I would be so special, we would be the first.

If I had a million dollars, I’d bet that if you went to the Dalai Lama himself with this question, HE would not be able to solve it for you.

You would be mad at me AND the Dalai Lama. … And you would STILL have a problem to solve.

❂

I happened across these yesterday and hesitated to post them, but … what the hell.

Apparently, Buddhism isn’t benign. It fucks a lot of people up:

》The usual response that I've gotten to these concerns is, "You're sacrificing truth and wisdom for the sake of feeling good. That's just what you criticise Christianity for, isn't it?" This would be a pretty damn good argument if I were convinced that the conclusions of Buddhist belief were as ironclad as their usually serene-unto-finality presentation makes them seem. The Dark Side of Buddhism《
And
》We need to realize that the tools of coping, defensiveness, and dysfunction can be useful but also do us a disservice. This is no easy task and the realization may bring a great deal of discomfort.

The Cost-Benefit of Self-Realization《


Good luck, Xain. I can’t take any more time. I’m sorry I couldn’t help you.

50

Also, @3point14rat, your kind words are much appreciated.

51

The links you posted don’t get at the problem and the thing is that I do write BUddhist teachers and the like but they don’t reply back to me ever. Not to mention the Dark Side one misrepresents Buddhism to make it’s point.

I don’t ask Buddhist people about this because they would just say that it is right, you don’t ask Buddhists about the truth of their claims just like you don’t ask Christians about theirs, you get an outside perspective. I ask others because asking Buddhists will just lead them to repeat what they were thought or practiced, it wouldn’t be a critical view.

Like I said, my problem is with the claims they make, which is part of the compulsion. There is a compulsion and OCD but it’s not the problem,it’s what happens after that. If you want to help then answer the claims they make.

52

So basically, @snowcity, you’ll be dealing with this problem the whole rest of your life. You will never find resolution.

Buddhists who don’t respond to your inquiries about this apparently don’t find the problem as urgent as you do.

But that’s fine, since you’ve already decided you’d reject any responses from Buddhists.

So you go to outsiders. But the topic is too complex for anyone with no knowledge of Buddhism to even guess at an answer. Which is why you aren’t getting any.

And since we are ignorant of this topic, you’d reject any responses from outsiders, too.

Looks like a no-win situation to me. A quagmire. You will wind up resenting everyone and everything in the whole world.

Sounds like a pretty “alone” place to be.

“Terminal uniqueness.”

 

¯_(ツ)_/¯

 

Good luck.

53
I don’t ask Buddhist people about this because they would just say that it is right, you don’t ask Buddhists about the truth of their claims just like you don’t ask Christians about theirs, you get an outside perspective.
Which is exactly what Tee described and many have done, including myself. Buddhism was an outside perspective to mainstream Protestantism which was an outside perspective to more conservative versions of religion that I didn’t even really consider. Ultimately, you are the only perspective that counts for you, keeping in mind that the billions of people who came here before you shape who you are. If you aren’t regularly checking anything you do from an objective point of view, then you are not thinking critically. If you do too little of that, you’ll find yourself in a jungle somewhere holding a gun for someone, not sure how you got there.

The “outside perspective” you avoid is that many people just consider these questions interesting, like the “hard problem of consciousness”. 10 Of The World's Most Fascinating Unsolved Problems

54

@snowcity

One last thing I am curious about, then I’ll leave you be.

Do you have any friends? Family? Job? Hobbies?

Are those things being impacted by this obsession of yours?

I can’t imagine anyone wants to spend much time with you IRL, if this is all you want to talk about.

It’s too bad you have decided that the only possible solution is a thing that is impossible.

 

Oh well

 

55
Like I said, my problem is with the claims they make, which is part of the compulsion. There is a compulsion and OCD but it’s not the problem,it’s what happens after that. If you want to help then answer the claims they make.
Xain, that has been done by various people here.

You have neatly danced around every explanation and effort including that excellent, insightful even, summary Tee laid out @10:54 pm for your edification, it just whizzed right by your head. Bet you didn’t give any of it a moments thought, you already knew how to brush off every sentiment and insight the moment you read it, didn’t have to give a sentence any consideration or do any reflection on your own. All you could do was double down.

In it’s own way you exercise the same dog-chasing-tail tactics that climate science and evolution deniers have perfected so well - slam the doors.

56
If you want to help then answer the claims they make.
Since when does ignoring the answers written specifically for you in answer to your questions equal no one answering?
I ask others because asking Buddhists will just lead them to repeat what they were thought or practiced, it wouldn’t be a critical view.
Yet again, how does you ignoring everything we say equal us not answering?

You could (and should) compile all of our posts to you into a set of books. Then whenever you want to accuse us from not answering your questions, you can look at the massive wall of books blocking the sun and realize that we did answered them all, you just didn’t like what we said.

There is a compulsion and OCD but it’s not the problem...
Denying the problem doesn't make the problem go away. I've tried that method many times but things almost always got worse.
57

@Lausten:

We should make something clear to @snowcity :

The bigger “outside perspective” is that nobody cares.

Maybe in Buddhist countries, a percentage of people do. I don’t know where Xain lives. But here in America, I can guarantee only about .000005% are concerned about this topic.

Yet people are moving and breathing and working and laughing and having sex and sleeping… almost like this doesn’t matter…

 

 
58
Negative thoughts are like stray dogs; if you feed them, they will come back; if you continue to feed and entertain them, they will stay, while enticing your behavior with their negativity.
59

To Tee - get a life

60
To Tee – get a life
Thanks a lot Player. The Irony Detector I've been working on just exploded.