It’s emotionally draining to want to help when everything you say rejected out of hand and your time and effort isn’t appreciated.
Even if it’s not Xian’s fault due to mental issues, it’s still draining.
Don’t feel bad, Tee, most of us have taken a shot or 2 or 3, at trying to help Xian out.
Thanks, @timb and @3point14rat and @write4u.
I don’t think @snowcity is bothering to read this (or ready to read it, I mean), but I’ll post anyway. Perhaps he will come back in a few weeks or months.
I’m 100% positive I know what is going on with Xain, because the very same thing happened to me.
Most folks have some awareness of “classic” obsessive-compulsive disorder. But unless you have personally experienced it, you truly can’t comprehend it. Having OCD isn’t like being “Monk.”
However, most people (even professionals) don’t know about “Pure O” OCD – obsessions that are just in your head, and don’t lead to compulsions (washing, locking, etc.)
In many ways, “Pure O” OCD is worse, because there is no compulsion to provide temporary relief, and also because it seems asymptomatic to OTHERS, most people with OCD never get help.
Two subsets of “Pure O” are “Scrupulocity” (religious OCD) and “Existential” (or philosophical) OCD.
These are obsessive ruminations about religious practices, or spiritual or intellectual truths, and fears about being wrong.
I believe this is what afflicts our Xain.
This form of OCD is less common than classic OCD, but it is much more common than people think. No one talks about it.
It happens to people of all religions/ideologies, and none. It is hard to explain, but (for example) there are atheists who have Catholic scrupulocity. The OCD is actually separate from religious faith. (Even religious therapists realize this, if they are properly trained.)
To be super clear: This is NOT just being really devout, or fascinated with religion or philosophy. Preoccupation with these issues isn’t “interesting” or a way to pass the time. It is not enjoyable. It is horrible. People can lose jobs and families. It is disabling. It is an illness, just as schizophrenia is an illness.
It also does not respond to logic, which is why, @lausten, talking to Xain about logical fallacies doesn’t change anything.
There are treatments, including SSRI meds and very specific forms of therapy. But there is no “cure.” For a lot of people, including me, OCD just morphs from one type to another. It switches on and off when it wants to, but it can take months or years.
Anyway, when I first developed this (summer of 1984), I thought I was completely alone.
BTW, I knew I wasn’t going to “change Xain’s mind.” I simply wanted to verify…and it looks like I was right.
I don’t expect him to agree that it is an illness … I would not have, at first… but perhaps I can plant a seed.
My post contained several links, but one of them is preventing it from going through. So I will post them individually below…
1/
3/
4/
5/
6/
I think I would have struggled to come up with those extensions of OCD based solely on the diagnostic criteria in the DSM-5. But I suppose that the field of support for OCD is expanding.
Thanks for that hypothesis and perspective.
Well, this was my diagnosis. After some 15 years. It pretty much ran my life. And I can tell you from the inside, it is like having a broken arm, and then reading the definition of a broken arm, and going, Yes, that is it exactly. It is extraordinarily specific.
Certainly your experience with and about the disorder goes well beyond any experience I have with it. My only knowledge of it, is that it is typically conceptualized as the presence of obsessive thoughts which elicit anxiety, which are followed by compulsive behaviors which may decrease some anxiety, temporarily, thus setting up and maintaining the self-reinforcing chain of dysfunctional behavior.
So in “existential OCD” I am assuming that the obsessive thoughts would be like, e.g., “Buddhism says that my “self” is an illusion.” The compulsive behaviors would be, what?, trying unsuccessfully, and to an extreme degree, to get assistance to understand or deal with the thoughts?
1 of 2
So in “existential OCD” I am assuming that the obsessive thoughts would be like, e.g., “Buddhism says that my “self” is an illusion.” The compulsive behaviors would be, what?, trying unsuccessfully, and to an extreme degree, to get assistance to understand or deal with the thoughts?Yes. Actually, when I said ...
However, most people (even professionals) don’t know about “Pure O” OCD — obsessions that are just in your head, and don’t lead to compulsions (washing, locking, etc.)... I should have said, "don't necessarily lead to outward behaviors."
@snowcity is doing a classic OCD thing. … asking for reassurance, again and again, but never being able to actually believe that reassurance. That is a compulsion.
But another compulsion that goes with scrupulocity/existential OCD is excessive rumination that is uncontrollable, but that is never shared with other people.
So the “compulsion” is an inner thought. As hard as it is to NOT wash your hands or check your locks, it’s 10,000x harder to NOT think of something.
And with Pure O is often that the thoughts are so disturbing, people don’t even tell their therapists. (Examples: What if I am a serial killer? What if I have stabbed people and forgot?)
Another problem with Pure O OCD is there is never ANY reassurance. Take “classic” OCD: Since you left home this morning, you have been thinking, “What if I left the stove on?”
But you might be able to call your wife and ask her to look and verify it’s off. Or, you can take a photo with your phone each morning to show you the date and the fact that the burner is off.
But questions like,
What if I accidentally sold my soul to the devil?
What if I’m in a vegetative state?
What if I wasn’t supposed to be born?
…can’t have reassurances.
It does sound accurate as it’s almost a compulsion that I NEED to know what Buddhism thinks about everything or I think about how they would think about it and take that to be gospel and people who disagree are deluded or living in illusion.
But it is like I can’t say no or disagree or let it go, it’s either right or wrong and in the case of Buddhism IT is ALWAYS right.
Like when they say we don’t like people just abstract traits or how we don’t miss people just the times we had, there is no discussion or dispute it’s just right because they said so (and also because I can’t think of another response to that because their answers seem correct and the more I think about it the more right it seems).
It does sound accurate as it’s almost a compulsion that I NEED to know what Buddhism thinks about everything ...But it is like I can’t say no or disagree or let it go, it’s either right or wrong and in the case of Buddhism IT is ALWAYS right.
…I can’t think of another response to that because their answers seem correct and the more I think about it the more right it seems).
Xain, yes, I 100% understand this.
I realize that all I have posted on OCD is a lot to digest. I also realize that the back of your mind is warning you that this is the wrong path.
But I hope you keep dropping in and reading this over the next few weeks or months.
At some point, you may decide to browse the websites/links I posted above, contact one of the organizations, or connect with a mental health professional where you live and tell them that you have Existential/Scrupulocity Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.
This is literally a biological “hiccup” inside your brain.
I am as certain of this as I’ve ever been certain of anything in my life, bro.
@snowcity @timber
2/2
I meant to come back yesterday and finish this.
I posted this before, but this is the absolute best article I have ever read on Pure-O OCD.
It is VERY long. But Xain may want to save it and read sometime.
It described, better than any other book or article, what it felt like in my brain when I had this. (For years.) It included things I never even told my own therapist.
been meaning to say thanks for the links Tee. The concepts you discussed have been presented over the last couple years, down to specifically mentioning CBT (I think that was πrat). it’s a classic “fall through the cracks” situation though; you have to want the therapy to get it, “first step is realizing you have a problem”, and all that. coming to an online forum is a classic avoidance strategy, it has the appearance of acting on the situation but accomplishes very little. But you’ve given it a name. “Existential OCD” would have never occurred to me. It sounds like something made up.
It reminds me of a podcast about the brain I heard a few years ago. A guy watched too many horror movies and couldn’t get images of himself acting like a horror movie villain out of his head. He couldn’t even pick up a knife without images popping in to his head. His psychiatrist told him that his obsession was not due to him being a potential axe murderer, it was because he was hyper good. Once he started worrying about being bad, he couldn’t stop. His therapy, DON’T TRY THIS AT HOME, was to hold his hands around the neck of his dog, and begin to trust himself that he wouldn’t do any harm.
Thank you, @lausten
The concepts you discussed have been presented over the last couple yearsScrupulocity OCD is finally starting to enter mainstream awareness. And it is incredibly common. I'm in a couple OCD (all kinds) groups on FB, and it comes up again and again.
CBTYes, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and ERP (Exposure And Response Prevention) are common treatments for all forms of OCD.
But these “Pure O” forms are the worst. It is one thing to NOT check a lock, and another thing to NOT have a certain thought. (You know the old "don’t think of a white polar bear…)
So, if @snowcity ever goes to a professional, they will probably treat with a form of Mindfulness: Essentially, learning to simply accept a symptom (thought).
The reasoning: it’s the anxiety around having the thought that locks it in and makes it worse. Just accepting it, paradoxically, can help it fade. SSRIs, specifically Prozac, also help some.
coming to an online forum is a classic avoidance strategyWell, it actually IS the symptom, akin to an alcoholic taking a drink.
But you’ve given it a name. “Existential OCD” would have never occurred to me. It sounds like something made up.I really hope I have brought some awareness. Even now, many professionals are unaware of it.
And most sufferers never seek help, because this form of OCD is “invisible.” People recognize excessive handwashing or lock-checking as problems, but you can have a mental obsession/rumination for years or decades and never recognize it as an illness.
couldn’t get images of himself acting like a horror movie villain out of his head...Yes, this is an example of Pure O OCD.
I’ve been trying to think of a way to describe Pure-O OCD. But even though I’m a “wordsmith,” it’s really, really hard.
This is what I came up with…
Imagine it's the 1980s (or any time before cell phones).Your 12-year-old daughter, Emily, has left with her Girl Scout troop for a massive annual camping event that attracts troops from all over the US.
You’ve just arrived at work when you overhear a news report that a bus carrying a Girl Scout troop has gone into a ravine, crashing 60 feet below.
Many girls are feared dead. First Responders are on their way.
One report says it was Troop 45, and another reports it was Troop 47.
No other information is available.
You begin to panic. What troop is Emily in again? Is she in 45, or 47? Or a completely different one…?
You place a couple of phone calls, but can’t get any additional information. But you can’t stop wondering: Which troop went over the ravine? And what number is Emily’s troop?
Now you are expected to be doing your job, which means you will be away from a phone and news reports for several hours.
You mention it to a few coworkers. They remind you: Hundreds of buses of Girl Scouts went to this event… The chances of this being HER bus are very small … Don’t worry about it. Try not to dwell on it.
But you can’t stop dwelling on it. This is your daughter, and she could be hurt or dead.
Was it Troop 45 or 47? And what Troop is she in? 40-anything? Wait, is she in 24? Or 44? You can visualize all sorts of numbers on her uniform. You need to KNOW.
You mention it again to a couple more coworkers. Now they are getting irritated. There were 200 buses!! And paramedics are there! You can’t DO anything about this anyway, so just forget about it for now. Probably Emily is just fine!!
But this is huge. You need to know.
Finally your boss says, “Dude! STOP! Focus on your job! You want to get fired??”
So you stop asking.
But logic and statistics don’t really help. You have a bad feeling about this. Didn’t you have a dream last week that Emily was hurt? Was that a sign? And what Troop is it…?
YOU HAVE TO KNOW.
YOU CAN’T JUST DECIDE NOT TO WORRY ABOUT IT.
Now, imagine having that feeling about something. But for days, months or years.
That’s kind of what Pure O feels like.
It is urgency plus uncertainty, with no way to verify the truth.
It is a VERY specific thing. In this scenario, you have LOTS of worries: The economy, your aunt who has cancer, the roof needs repairs…
but Emily’s bus occupies a certain place in your brain.
>>>> Tell me. Does that help? Can you imagine that?
I think I get it.
It’s something that’s there whether you want it to be or not, and, oddly, you don’t always not want it to be there. It’s something so worrying that you don’t want to stop worrying about it even though you know you should stop. You say you want to stop and those closest to you tell you to stop, but you aren’t comfortable with stopping because it’s such a big thing that not worrying about it seems wrong in some way.
The analogy about the daughter is good. I imagined it would be like letting your daughter walk to a friends house after you saw a report on the news about a serial rapist on the loose in another country. Although you might rationally know that the odds didn’t change due to the news story, you feel like you should worry more (what kind of parent would ignore something so terrible!) So you willingly obsess over her safety.
Now imagine not wanting to ever let go of that fear. You know it’s irrational and harming your relationship with your daughter, but why would you choose to not worry about her safety?!? That’s even worse!
I think the rational yet irrational need to cling to the obsession is what makes it so hard to get over.