If you eat yourself into obesity you become disabled. You are less likely to be able to do your part in your job or for your family. You are less able to so domestic chores, so someone else has to pull up the slack. If you have a wife and/or children you are less able to do physical things with them, So they are disadvantaged. You will probably need subsidized medical care. Even if you are a multi millionaire and can pay for all the things you need, there are subtle needs you are costing the people around you. Your extra medical care, even if you are paying for it yourself, means someone else is getting less because medical resources are being devoted to you instead of to people whp are sick through no fault of their own. Sooner or later you are going to need help from someone because your obesity will prevent you from doing your fair share and from taking care of yourself. Someone else will have to step in, even if it’s only to help you escape from a burning building because you can’t move as fast as you could if you weren’t obese. Everyone owes it to society to keep his or her body as healthy as possible to avoid being a burden to others. You fool yourself if you think your obesity affects no one else but you. No man is an island.
Lois
I still think that if fruits and vegetables were cheaper than corn-syrup and potatoes, the menu at MacDonalds would be healthier.
I still think that if fruits and vegetables were cheaper than corn-syrup and potatoes, the menu at MacDonalds would be healthier.Fruit and vegetables ARE cheaper. And there is nothing wrong with potatoes. It's the oil and butter they're cooked in that's the problem. If people bought fruits and vegetables at a supermarket or farm stand and prepared tham at home, it would probably cost them half of what they're paying for fast food and corn syrup-laced products. Bad eating habits are not the fault of food prices. It is bad choices and laziness. I know whereof I speak. When I was raising my kids we had many very lean years. I shopped for and cooked fruits, vegetables, meat and fish, and the kids drank milk or pure fruit juice. It was a very rare occasion when they ever ate fast food or other junk. I paid much less for our food budget than people do who eat fast food and prepared junk. Lois
It’s not simple laziness, Lois. Not always. Many people don’t have time to shop around for fresh fruit and cook everything at home. At least anything that takes longer than three minutes. If someone’s working three jobs and trying to raise kids the last thing they’re going to want to do when they get home is cook a damn meal. My parents sure didn’t.
And there’s still that boom or boost evolutionary programming to counteract. Damn evolution.
It's not simple laziness, Lois. Not always. Many people don't have time to shop around for fresh fruit and cook everything at home. No time? I was working a full time job and raising 4 kids who were born within 7 years. At least anything that takes longer than three minutes. If someone's working three jobs and trying to raise kids the last thing they're going to want to do when they get home is cook a damn meal. My parents sure didn't. How many people work three jobs? Nobody can work three jobs and raise kids. Even if they ate every meal in a fast food joint the kids would hardly ever see the parent(s). That's not raising kids, it's leaving the kids to fend for themselves. Maybe if they weren't paying for all that fast food they wouldn't have to work that many hours. I raised four kids on one job that didn't pay much. Somehow we managed. We had the necessities, but no fast food. There is a law of diminishing returns. And there's still that boom or boost evolutionary programming to counteract. Damn evolution.What evolutionary programming? Do you mean there's something other than survival? Lois
Jesus, Lois. Haven’t you yet figured out not to take me entirely literally? I was using figurative wording and some minor hyperbole to emphasize how many people work hard and long and by the end of the day they may not exactly feel up to making a home cooked meal every night. If you did, then bully for you. Want a prize? Not everyone is built the same or handles stress the same. Saying that Americans wouldn’t be so fat if they all bought fresh and cooked at home sounds good and may or may not be true (it depends on what is cooked with), but it also ignores the complex and often quite irrational behavior of human beings.
Also, I’ve known at least two people who worked three jobs and raised at least one kid at the same time. Were they three full time jobs? Of course not. I didn’t mean full time jobs before either.
Finally, with “evolutionary programming” I’m being poetic and lumping together several different things. Various cognitive biases. The tendency of human beings to favor short term immediate reward over a potentially greater reward in the future. The fact that we evolved in a famine prone world where a bias toward gorging on high calorie food sources when able was a desirable trait. And yes, survival.
Lois, what you present is anecdotal evidence only; “if everyone conducted his/her life as I did then they wouldn’t be obese”. While I applaud your efforts to raise your children in a healthy atmosphere, you’re leaving out many other factors that apply to obesity, namely culture, genetics, economic class, and medicinal needs. For example, I’m certain that your income allowed you to afford to fix healthier, higher priced meals, while you would be unable to do that while being underemployed or on public assistance. And DM is correct in bringing genetics into the discussion as it plays a large part in weight gain due to a slower metabolic rate and other factors mentioned in the following post:
Cap’t Jack
Link Does this mean it costs people other than me money when I eat deep fried, bacon-wrapped butter sticks? But they're sooo good. And all my door frames have been cut into stylish ovoids.All it really means is buy stock like hell in any company that manyfactures spandex.
Lois, what you present is anecdotal evidence only; "if everyone conducted his/her life as I did then they wouldn't be obese". While I applaud your efforts to raise your children in a healthy atmosphere, you're leaving out many other factors that apply to obesity, namely culture, genetics, economic class, and medicinal needs. For example, I'm certain that your income allowed you to afford to fix healthier, higher priced meals, while you would be unable to do that while being underemployed or on public assistance. You're wrong onnthat point. My income was very low. And you miss the point that cooking at home costs less than eating fast food. Our meals were not higher priced than fast food meals. And DM is correct in bringing genetics into the discussion as it plays a large part in weight gain due to a slower metabolic rate and other factors mentioned in the following post: http://www.medicinenet.com/obesity_weight_loss/page3.htm Cap't JackGenetics may be a factor in how food is metabolized, but a person has to eat the calories to gain the weight. Genetics doesn't determine poor food choices. The OP said: "Does this mean it costs people other than me money when I eat deep fried, bacon-wrapped butter sticks? But they’re sooo good." That has nothing to do with genetic metabolism. The topic wasn't so much about obesity, per se, but whether obesity affects others. If someone is eating anything like "deep fried, bacon-wrapped butter sticks" it will result in deliberate obesity and it does affect others. Lois
Jesus, Lois. Haven't you yet figured out not to take me entirely literally? I was using figurative wording and some minor hyperbole to emphasize how many people work hard and long and by the end of the day they may not exactly feel up to making a home cooked meal every night. If you did, then bully for you. Want a prize? Not everyone is built the same or handles stress the same. Saying that Americans wouldn't be so fat if they all bought fresh and cooked at home sounds good and may or may not be true (it depends on what is cooked with), but it also ignores the complex and often quite irrational behavior of human beings. I don't doubt that people act irrationally. They also make excuses for themselves. Also, I've known at least two people who worked three jobs and raised at least one kid at the same time. Were they three full time jobs? Of course not. I didn't mean full time jobs before either. I was outof the house for 11-12 hours a day at one full time job. I also had to pay for child care. If I worked more hours I would earn almost nothing from it and my kids would have suffered even more. I was not implying that I was a hero. I pointed out that I cooked meals at home only to show it's possible. If I could do it, anyone can. I had plenty of other poor choices to live down. Food I happened to do ok with. I also was not alone.. i had plenty of friends and neighbors in the same boat who cooked at home and controlled their genetic tendencies to gain weight with junk food. Finally, with "evolutionary programming" I'm being poetic and lumping together several different things. Various cognitive biases. The tendency of human beings to favor short term immediate reward over a potentially greater reward in the future. The fact that we evolved in a famine prone world where a bias toward gorging on high calorie food sources when able was a desirable trait. And yes, survival.I agree with that. It doesn't mean people can't fight against it, though. If it weren't possible, most people would be obese and no one would be able to control his food intake. But we know that is not the case. Lois
That has nothing to do with genetic metabolism. The topic wasn’t so much about obesity, per se, but whether obesity affects others. If someone is eating anything like “deep fried, bacon-wrapped butter sticks" it will result in deliberate obesity and it does affect others.The topic has expanded well beyond DM's facetious satire Lois. In reality, no one chows down on deep fried butter sticks to survive. They do however, under certain conditions I've already mentioned eat food that would be considered "unhealthy" for the reasons I've previously listed including psychological conditions such as eating what is considered "comfort food" binging. I do agree that obesity does have an adverse on society in general and individuals in particular as many people are lured by "miracle" diets touted by hucksters, some of whom a members of the medical community and who should know better. It's becoming a National problem and now has a major impact on the health industry. Cap't Jack
Link Does this mean it costs people other than me money when I eat deep fried, bacon-wrapped butter sticks? But they're sooo good. And all my door frames have been cut into stylish ovoids.All it really means is buy stock like hell in any company that manyfactures spandex. Spandex? You may not understand the girth of the crisis. ... It's time to bring back the moo-moo!
I was fully aware that “deep fried, bacon-wrapped butter sticks" was satire, but it does symbolize fast junk food, which isn't all that far from “deep fried, bacon-wrapped butter sticks". I know very well why people eat such unhealthy fare. It IS built into our genes and the fast food and snack food industries have taken advantage of it for profits. Junk sells and translates into profits BECAUSE people are genetically presdisposed to crave it. I don't expect the genetivc predisposition to go away nor for industries to stop making profits off people's weaknesses. It's the way of the world. People will have to get smarter, but I don't expect that to happen anytime soon, either. LoisThat has nothing to do with genetic metabolism. The topic wasn’t so much about obesity, per se, but whether obesity affects others. If someone is eating anything like “deep fried, bacon-wrapped butter sticks" it will result in deliberate obesity and it does affect others.The topic has expanded well beyond DM's facetious satire Lois. In reality, no one chows down on deep fried butter sticks to survive. They do however, under certain conditions I've already mentioned eat food that would be considered "unhealthy" for the reasons I've previously listed including psychological conditions such as eating what is considered "comfort food" binging. I do agree that obesity does have an adverse on society in general and individuals in particular as many people are lured by "miracle" diets touted by hucksters, some of whom a members of the medical community and who should know better. It's becoming a National problem and now has a major impact on the health industry. Cap't Jack
I was fully aware that “deep fried, bacon-wrapped butter sticks" was satire, but it does symbolize fast junk food, which isn’t all that far from “deep fried, bacon-wrapped butter sticks". I know very well why people eat such unhealthy fare. It IS built into our genes and the fast food and snack food industries have taken advantage of it for profits. Junk sells and translates into profits BECAUSE people are genetically presdisposed to crave it. I don’t expect the genetivc predisposition to go away nor for industries to stop making profits off people’s weaknesses. It’s the way of the world. People will have to get smarter, but I don’t expect that to happen anytime soon, either.I agree Lois but here's the problem, there are several targets out there but you continuously aim at only one, namely genetics. I've clearly listed many other reasons for obesity, which BTW is the topic at hand even if it morphed into it and these have combined to produce a National problem and NO I totally disagree that because we are genetically predisposed to crave certain foods we turn to junk food, e.g. Ray Kroc's idea to buy the MCDonald brother's store and turn it into a drive through for customers with limited time to eat. People didn't flock there for the junk food, they used the drive thru to slam down the food and get back to work, and it was CHEAP. When we were teens (I presume you're my age) Mikki D's sold a bag of two burgers, fries and a coke for $1.00. So there's two reasons to eat junk food, time and money, and it still is. The fact that we're all predisposed to eating junk food isn't the only reason we're obese, we're also a looooot more sedentary than even the previous generation and that's taking it's toll on the youth of this generation. There's even a video game that chides the player to "drop the chips. . . . Consequently people are suffering more heart attacks and diabetes, which is also on the rise do to the factors I previously mentioned. Cap't Jack Cap't Jack
I still think that if fruits and vegetables were cheaper than corn-syrup and potatoes, the menu at MacDonalds would be healthier.Fruit and vegetables ARE cheaper. And there is nothing wrong with potatoes. It's the oil and butter they're cooked in that's the problem. If people bought fruits and vegetables at a supermarket or farm stand and prepared tham at home, it would probably cost them half of what they're paying for fast food and corn syrup-laced products. Bad eating habits are not the fault of food prices. It is bad choices and laziness... Lois You know, as well as I, that "bad choices and laziness" are a product of genetic influences AND historical and current environmental contingencies. Societally, we can not do much about the genetic influences on individuals (except to try to better understand them and to try to functionally adjust). We can't go back in time and change environmental influences from an individual's past. But we can, potentially change current and future contingencies. So what if, for example, instead of having the ubiquitous food businesses, that provide tasty, cheap, fattening fare, we had food businesses that provided, just as tasty, more appealing, much more nutritious, non-fattening, inexpensive meals?
So what if, for example, instead of having the ubiquitous food businesses, that provide tasty, cheap, fattening fare, we had food businesses that provided, just as tasty, more appealing, much more nutritious, non-fattening, inexpensive meals?That's obviously a great idea Tim but how do you actually convince the general public to substitute broccoli for a Snickers bar? Could you cite an example of a tasty non fattening and inexpensive meal? I've found that a salad including fruit, grapes, orange slices, pineapple etc. containing natural sugars can satisfy that craving but it's no substitute for chocolate covered peanuts. Still looking. Cap't Jack
1) subsidize broccoli/other most nutritional non-fattening foods, tax snickers/all empty calorie foods 2) subsidize broccoli/et. al. advertisements. tax snickers advertisements 3) sponsor an annual contest for the best chefs of the world to devise a nutritional snack/meal that is voted on nationally as being the most appealing in relation to a snickers/burger and fries 3) remove the initial political primaries from corn states 4) support research that is geared toward developing more appealing nutritional non-fattening foods. 5) tax (progressively higher on) all food producers, manufacturers, distributors based on the empty calories in food products that they sell. There can be other ideas, but a comprehensive, major push seems in order, considering the epidemic.So what if, for example, instead of having the ubiquitous food businesses, that provide tasty, cheap, fattening fare, we had food businesses that provided, just as tasty, more appealing, much more nutritious, non-fattening, inexpensive meals?That's obviously a great idea Tim but how do you actually convince the general public to substitute broccoli for a Snickers bar?... Cap't Jack