I want to live life as thought it had meaning, I truly do. But every time I do I just remember Broward meditation and the “picture world” which is what we construct based on our experience of things and leads us to believe things and people to be other than what they are, empty.
I want to live life as thought it had meaning, I truly do.You dropped a word or two there. Or should "thought" be "though"? Anyway. What does that mean? What meaning did you use to think life had? What meaning could there be that could provide some form to your life? You desire meaning, you exist, what does that mean? What does it mean to want to live?
I don’t know but it seems like all I’m doing lately is running from the void like this seems to say: http://scriptoriumdaily.com/making-meaning-in-a-meaningless-world-five-ways-that-wont-work/
I’m really glad I didn’t see this yesterday because I needed to get my taxes done. You’re joking right? Did you look at who this blogger is? He’s an evangelical. He’s putting down the human search for meaning because he wants you to accept that God will provide you with meaning. This is where I thought you were going 2 years ago. It’s a common believer tactic, to claim that there is no inherent meaning provided to us by the universe and that should be depressing. They then go on to suggest the meaning provided by God, but you never did, you stopped at depressing. You’ve even dismissed religion, often.
So, my questions above remain. You also said that Nietzsche failed, but, like always, you didn’t show what he tried to do and then show how his analysis is wrong. That’s how philosophy is done. Simply dismissing the life’s work of all other philosophers is what Ayn Rand did. You can get disaffected youth to join your Brown Shirt group by doing that, but you won’t get anywhere with people who are thoughtful and care about humanity.
@lausten very much liked how you worded the post with the exception of mentioning taxes - have to do mine tomorrow.
Did you look at who this blogger is? He’s an evangelical. He’s putting down the human search for meaning because he wants you to accept that God will provide you with meaning.What difference does it make to anyone where Xain gets meaning for his life? The only thing that will ever get him off his pissing and moaning routine is to find some meaning somewhere that will lead him into having some purpose. He will be better off as a Druid or a Fundamental Mormon or a science-is-everything follower rather than having no focus. It seems to me that pretty much anything will be better than the nothing he's at now.
He needs to get his feet planted somewhere before he can look around at the lay of the land. If where he lands is not right for him he can move, more than once if he needs to. Constantly searching without stopping to experience is no good.
One can read all the menus from all the restaurants in the world and starve to death if he never stops to eat. He won’t know the fish sandwich from Burgers Plus doesn’t satisfy him until he’s eaten one.
"One can read all the menus from all the restaurants in the world and starve to death if he never stops to eat. He won’t know the fish sandwich from Burgers Plus doesn’t satisfy him until he’s eaten one."I approve of this analogy.
Xain needs to see that the lack of meaning in his life is at least partially self-inflicted, so he should investigate how the other 99.9983% of the world’s population have meaning in their life.
Telling 99.9983% of his fellow humans that the meaning they have is illusory and therefore somehow wrong, is not surprisingly not the best way to look for meaning.
[I arrived at “99.9983” through careful analysis of random numbers that were close to, but slightly below, 100. My methods are proprietary, so I can’t divulge them. Rest assured they are completely fabricated and are in no way valid for use in research or making decisions.]
Awesome footnote 3pt.
What difference does it make to anyone where Xain gets meaning for his life? - BobIt does make a difference if he finds meaning in something like Heaven’s Gate. For those not obsessed with cults like me, that’s the group of computer programmers who donned tennis shoes and committed suicide to catch a ride on a comet. I’m not too worried about Xain, because his first reaction to anything is to get depressed about it. Disaffected youth usually have something to latch on to, like belief in aliens, or love of their guns, or some more base physical desire. But, yes, Druid would be better than whatever he’s doing now.
I’ve only checked out Nietzsche a few times, and it’s usually more interesting than I expect. Much of what he is famous for happened early in the development of his philosophy, and then he had physical problems and faded from popular view. His sister published more of his work posthumously. The link I provided is constructed from notes. Some of it is easy to follow and non-technical, poetic. Other parts are long technical discussions of other philosophers. It’s hard to know what his real thoughts were.
Finding a good guide to philosophy is usually best, but then you can’t be sure they are getting are it right. Like here.
They can help point you to quotes that sum them up.
In his biography on Nietzsche, Rudiger Safranski elucidates, using a passage from Nietzsche’s journals, exactly what Nietzsche thought to be the meaning of life:“…we are not humans from the start; we need to become human. Toward this end, we need the insight “that only we are responsible for ourselves, that accusations that we have missed our life’s calling can be directed only at us, not some higher powers”. We are in no need of the delusion of a supernatural world, because the very task of becoming human is the truly colossal achievement.” (Nietzsche: A Philosophical Biography: Rudiger Safranski)
Granted, that still does not provide some final answer, or respond to all objections. For Xain, his “delusion of a supernatural world” is replaced by the “universe without meaning”. He lets that higher power stop him from doing anything. Having surveyed the world of possible meanings, he found none, and gave all his power to nothingness. The lecturer in the link uses “going within” to find meaning, but I’m not sure where “within” is, it’s kind of like “spiritual”. But in some of the other quotes, he’s talking about is our desires, and we can go with them. Meaning or no meaning, we all have desires.
I like Nietzsche.
Heaven’s Gate, wow, I had almost forgotten about that. What with Jim Jones and David Koresh, we had a rash of bad nut case outcomes back then.
I, like you I believe, like much in the Bible. “Face you fears and they will flee from you” is one I hold on to. I have seen the power in it work. Xain might benefit from it.
Nietzche: “...that only we are responsible for ourselves, that accusations that we have missed our life’s calling can be directed only at us, not some higher powers”.That's true, empowering and terrifying.
The idea that we’re responsible for living the right/best life is what can get some people out of bed in the morning and keep others hiding under the covers. Not everyone is happy to embrace a challenge that consequential. The fear of making a mistake leads some to immobility, and those people are to be helped and encouraged, not dismissed or pitied.
Not sure Xain looks at other threads much so I though I’d add it over here. Another challenge from a different perspective.
... Oh I forgot, I did just come home from an hour of enraptured rock hunting during one of those eureka moments of discovery and studying fractures to a detail I never had before. Considering I’ve already spent decades being in love with rocks and closely looking at them and the stories they can tell those who know how to read them, that’s saying something. (enthusiast, never actual student)Xain talks about lack of meaning in anything – but if it can stir your soul to the point that your entire body and being tingles, while your mindscape creates connects and reinforces others, painting an ever richer picture of our existence – how can it not matter, or be meaningless?
Perfect example of the dam builder v kayaker dilemma – is the now as important as the forever? Does it matter?
Of course not, in the greater scheme of things, but in the moment… of course it matters. That’s good enough for me.
Regarding Nietzsche.
All that stuff reminds me of something Henry Fonda is said to have told one of his ex-wifes:
“In the end, we all need to save ourselves.”
as in, no one else can do it.
Lausten: "Awesome footnote 3pt."Not sure how I missed that comment until just now.
Thanks. I add those things for my own entertainment purposes with no expectations that others like them.
It’s almost a compulsion to add silly stuff. More often than not I type things like that then delete them before posting to save you all from my often unique and rarely shared version of humor. (Don’t worry, I’m not taking the comment as an invitation to open the floodgates.)
As for Nietzche, I’ve still never read a word of his other than what’s quoted on this forum. Someday I will. He sounds like he had ideas worth knowing.
Next time I’m in the bookstore I’ll see if there’s a book about him and his ideas. Reading the originals is never a good thing for me since I am incapable of reading even college level philosophical works. I’ve tried a number of times over the past few decades and never get past the first couple of pages (my old fantasy books are so much more fun to gobble up while laying in bed.)
Philosophy usually is a bit, um, different, 20th century perhaps being the most difficult and technical. You have to know the others to make sense of the new stuff. And the really old requires contextual knowledge and different definitions of words. Although a good translation of Plato or Aristotle is worth it. But Nietzsche can sometimes hit a sweet spot. Sometimes he goes down rabbit holes, but sometimes he is saying something that makes perfect sense to us today because he was ahead of his time. This Will to Power seems like it would be like that, although I just skimmed it so far.
The one book of his I read in it’s entirety was The Anti-Christ. I was looking for something to read in the middle of the night and found it for free. It’s been too many years now, so I can’t remember why, I just remember liking it.
I’ll look around for a free book online, maybe even a free audiobook (I’ve never listened to one. This might be a way for me to make it through these kind of books.)
Librivox has a bunch of Nietzsche audio books. I downloaded 'The AntiChrist" and started listening this morning on the way to work.
The Introduction took 45 minutes and I got about 10 minutes into the actual book. This is going to be a difficult chore. Don’t hate me if I struggle and drag this on for ages. My attention span is limited and this kind of listening requires lots of attention.
That’s true, empowering and terrifying.The idea that we’re responsible for living the right/best life is what can get some people out of bed in the morning and keep others hiding under the covers. Not everyone is happy to embrace a challenge that consequential. The fear of making a mistake leads some to immobility, and those people are to be helped and encouraged, not dismissed or pitied.
Its also wrong. His philosophy depends on free will existing which based on current evidence seems to suggest we don’t have any. We don’t control our likes, dislikes, beliefs, what we find convincing, etc. Much of our lives is beyond our own control and the choice we believed we has is more like inevitability. Also he winds up dodging nihilism with that comment. You have to remember that he spent the rest of his life trying to defeat nihilism and failed. All his responses dodge it and fail to reckon with the fact that according to nihilism such things have no meaning.
I can’t rightly agree with the guy that god provides meaning, especially when I don’t believe in one with any real fervor, but his points about making meaning are right. It similar to what Camus said about making meaning, it’s a pointless and wasted effort
Also my lack of meaning isn’t self imposed, it’s living with the reality of our universe since birth
Xain: "It similar to what Camus said about making meaning, it’s a pointless and wasted effort"If you believed that, you'd have long ago SHUT-UP ABOUT IT!!!!!!!
No one with more than half a brain obsesses over the very thing they categorically state is meaningless.
No one who believes life is meaningless spends their entire life obsessing over it. If it’s meaningless, it’s meaningless!
Think about it dude. Seriously!
[When your done, come back because you’ll realize there is meaning. Then we can enjoy each other’s company and have fun. But I’m also serious that you need to completely SHUT-UP about demanding life is meaningless. It’s such a self-contradictory activity that it is literally impossible to take you the least bit serious.
A number of times I’ve come close to writing you off completely, but I haven’t yet. But be aware that there’s very thin ice ahead, so unless you start thinking before you post, you’ll fall in, and I can’t say I have many more rescues in me.]
Welcome back Xain. I thought for a minute I had really stumped you this time.
You have to remember that he spent the rest of his life trying to defeat nihilism and failed. -- XainJust like you confused the Buddhist concept of not getting attached with the idea of completely detaching from all feelings, now you are confusing lack of meaning with nihilism. The dictionary definition is very helpful with this.
Nihilism is the rejection of all religious and moral principles, in the belief that life is meaningless.Nietzsche saw the meaningless, got kinda depressed about it, but worked through that. But he never changed his mind about life having meaning. If you think he did, please demonstrate that. “Having” is the key word here. You can believe whatever you want about meaning, but it’s kinda hard to deny that there was life before you got here, you are alive now, and that life will continue for a quite a while after you or I are gone. You can have a full and happy life, without meaning.
You’re confusing free will with making choices. Just because our choices are not “free” from outside forces, we still have choice. Actually, if you were free to choose whatever you want, then the Broward website would never have stuck in your mind in the first place, nor any other website or words from anyone, you’d be left with the same choices for no reason you have now. Free will or not free will is relevant to physics, but not applicable to the human experience in the way you are trying to define it.