Xain, You are choosing to believe nothing matters. I am telling you to not choose to believe that.
It is 100% your choice and only one of those choices is correct.
A baby will stop crying when it is picked up because it feels comforted. A mother bear will rip you to shreds if you get between her and her cub. A gold fish will orient and swim towards food dropped onto the surface of it’s tank. A person can feel guilty if they do something mean to someone else. A spider will race out onto it’s web when it feels the struggles of a trapped insect. Xain, you felt some emotion (dread, excitement, anticipation, etc) when logging into this forum for the first time today.
All of those biological reactions are real. Do you understand that? Real means they are real. You can’t dismiss them merely because there is an idea with a name (nihilism) that makes you think you can. Real things are real… full stop.
Nihilism is an example of an idea that is useful in only a narrow area (in this case, philosophical discussions, and that’s it.) It is not applicable when you walk out the door and live your life.
It’s not a belief its what IS, and it’s hard for me to forget that. I don’t choose to believe this as again it’s not a belief but the fact of reality.
Emotions are fleeting sensation and have no real value to them, we just give them value. Also saying “real means they are real” sounds like something believers in God would say about their deity and I’m afraid that doesn’t fly for me.
Nihilism isn’t about being applicable, it’s about getting at the truth of things as they are and from what I can see things don’t matter. NOTHING does and I can’t keep pretending that they do because they don’t. Whether I go to school or don’t doesn’t matter, eat or don’t doesn’t matter, etc. Each day it feels like my mind is getting closer to that null zone where nothing matters and I may remain a vegetable (or not). Unlike everyone else I can’t keep pretending and lying to myself like that, I can’t forget either.
from what I can see things don’t matter. NOTHING does
So what? If nothing matters, then it doesn't matter that nothing matters. Why be concerned with it if it doesn't matter?
Everything is transient. The old saying “this too will pass” is true. Life will pass from us all and then what, nothing? No, unless we all die at the same time, life for others will persist. What is better, life or not life? If you’re the only one walking south and there are thousands walking north, aren’t you at least a little curious about what they’re doing and what they think they will see when they get where they’re going? I’d rather walk with them and have a good time doing it than just sitting on the side of the road and feeling sorry for them even if they actually are walking toward oblivion.
Xain, an obsession with proving that nothing has meaning is a paradox. Either nothing has meaning, in which case you wouldn’t care (obviously), or it does, in which case you would care (obviously). Since you do care, you are proving there is meaning. You are literally proving there is meaning by your insistence that there is none.
Here is the situation between you and us in point form:
You care about whether life has meaning.
You read somewhere that 'things' have no inherent meaning.
You interpret that to mean life has no meaning (we'll ignore whether or not you interpreted the idea correctly).
You believe that particular viewpoint is true (we'll ignore whether you can logically do so or not).
You try to apply the idea to your life (in spite of it obviously being impossible).
You come here for validation.
We show you how and why you are wrong.
You do not understand what we are saying (or you're not trying to understand).
You say we don't understand.
Repeat steps 7 - 9 ad infinitum.
I'm not saying you're maliciously not understanding us, I'm saying you either can't or are subconsciously avoiding it.
When we say the same thing 6-ways-from-Sunday and you don’t respond to anything ever, it’s clear that we are not communicating with you. Since the point of this is to communicate, either you stop asking or we stop helping.
I do want to help, but if you aren’t willing to accept it, what’s the point?
So you need to start reading our posts slowly and thoughtfully. Take your time and reread things as many times as you need to in order for what we’re saying to make sense. Feel free to ask for clarifications if something isn’t clear - I’d rather clarify a point knowing you’re engaged in what I say, than repeat myself because you haven’t even tried to listen.
So you need to start reading our posts slowly and thoughtfully. Take your time and reread things as many times as you need to in order for what we’re saying to make sense. Feel free to ask for clarifications if something isn’t clear – I’d rather clarify a point knowing you’re engaged in what I say, than repeat myself because you haven’t even tried to listen.
I have reread my posts but what you don't seem to get is that what you say doesn't nullify them. You can't just insist that things matter when they don't. Your step 1 is wrong because the problem is that life doesn't have meaning. Number 3 is also in correct since you are assuming it's an interpretation when it's really the objective fact of our existence. Number 5 is false as it is not impossible to do so but it is very hard. Number 6 is false since I'm trying to find a way around it but haven't. Number 7 is false too since you haven't shown how it is false.
I am listening but the thing is that nothing you have said overwrites Nihilism as the truth of existence. That nothing we do matters or has value and soon I will waste away into nothing while my will to survive erodes each day. Eventually I’ll likely reach some vegetable mindset of not doing anything. You advice amounts to little more than essentially lying to myself, but I can’t anymore. I keep saying I can’t pretend anymore. I already have stopped caring what happens to me in terms of career, school, and hobbies. Soon it will reach the last step of not caring at all. It’s not really a choice, more like the inevitable conclusion of not being able to fake it anymore.
So, you've figured out the truth of existence. You've done something no one else has done in millions of years. Are you sure? Your life literally depends on this. You can't actually prove you're right. You can't convince any of us. You can't even find a famous nihilist who agrees with you. But you've decided this is the rock where you are going to stake your claim.
I have to take a break from this Xain. It’s too frustrating to continue spending hours a week trying to help a person who’s pleading for help, then have that person ignore everything you say.
You claim that you understand what I’m saying, but you don’t. Not even a little.
Maybe in a few days or weeks I’ll read your posts again. In the mean time there are other things to do that actually accomplish something.
Eventually I’ll likely reach some vegetable mindset of not doing anything.
Have you ever considered that you're not doing this to yourself? If you really want to do yourself a big favor let the people who support you and make school, hobbies and the possibility of a career possible know that by continuing to support you they are actually killing you. Tell them, force them, to stop supporting you. If they won't do it voluntarily make their lives so miserable that they will throw you out in order to save themselves.
Don’t sit around counting your blessings and contemplating how fortunate you are. Get out on your own and experience hunger and fear. Once you have that experience, don’t go back to your comfy life. Get so far down that the only way forward is up. Most if not all of the great artists, writers and philosophers have been that route. You will learn more from the bad times, especially the really, really bad times, than you will from the good times. Do it slowly, take your time and soak it up. You’ll thank me later.
I already have stopped caring what happens to me in terms of career, school, and hobbies.
No, you haven't. What you're doing is called attention seeking.
Well, you made me go look up Nietzsche. I thought Zarathustra might be applicable, and it is, but that requires some work, something you usually don’t do. But, simply, Nietzsche figured out that what you’re doing is inconsistent a long time ago. 3pt laid it out in terms that apply to what you’re actually doing, the philosophers provide the technical backup for that:
Nietzsche distinguishes a morality that is strong or healthy, meaning that the person in question is aware that he constructs it himself, from weak morality, where the interpretation is projected on to something external.
This mowing away of all value in the world is characteristic of the nihilist, although in this, the nihilist appears inconsistent: this “will to nothingness” is still a form of willing.
– fromWikipedia
Or the better translation, a man “will rather will nothingness than not will”. You can google that phrase. You failed to find justification for nihilism in Buddhism because you are “willing nothingness”, and Buddhism is about being in the world. You see the world, but don’t see meaning, or as you say, you “know” there is no meaning, so you use your will to make the world nothing. But trying to make it nothing is inconsistent with it being nothing. Dropping all sense of morality and doing whatever you want would also be inconsistent, because it’s doing something.
The consistent response to nothing is nothing. You can only find out what lies beyond that response if you try it, which is trying to do nothing. This might be the exception to Yoda’s “there is no try”, since you can only try to do nothing, you can’t just do nothing. There are plenty of writers, artists and baristas and fathers who have done this and are doing it. They see the emptiness, do nothing, make no decision about that, then go on to get their wife a cup of tea or take the dog for a walk.
I have to take a break from this Xain. It’s too frustrating to continue spending hours a week trying to help a person who’s pleading for help, then have that person ignore everything you say.
You claim that you understand what I’m saying, but you don’t. Not even a little.
Maybe in a few days or weeks I’ll read your posts again. In the mean time there are other things to do that actually accomplish something.
Your break is from your own inability to reckon with the truth that our lives are meaningless and how if you read through all your posts you would see how none of these resolve nihilism.
Have you ever considered that you’re not doing this to yourself? If you really want to do yourself a big favor let the people who support you and make school, hobbies and the possibility of a career possible know that by continuing to support you they are actually killing you. Tell them, force them, to stop supporting you. If they won’t do it voluntarily make their lives so miserable that they will throw you out in order to save themselves.
Don’t sit around counting your blessings and contemplating how fortunate you are. Get out on your own and experience hunger and fear. Once you have that experience, don’t go back to your comfy life. Get so far down that the only way forward is up. Most if not all of the great artists, writers and philosophers have been that route. You will learn more from the bad times, especially the really, really bad times, than you will from the good times. Do it slowly, take your time and soak it up. You’ll thank me later.
Thing is that I have known such things in the past and they actually led me to this route. Sorry.
if you read through all your posts you would see how none of these resolve nihilism.
Since 3pt is taking a break, I'll jump in here. His posts are just fine. Your's are inconsistent. If the rest of the universe listened to your logic, it would just collapse on itself and not exist. You've never really even defined nihilism. You jump straight to choosing a reaction before you realize how absurd it is that you would do that.
With mental illness, I realize that choices are not really made, that the illness is in control, but healthy minds aren’t actually in control either, according to some models. So, I can’t diagnose you remotely, I can only respond to what you say you are concluding and how you got there. And I can see bad choices.
Or the better translation, a man “will rather will nothingness than not will”. You can google that phrase. You failed to find justification for nihilism in Buddhism because you are “willing nothingness”, and Buddhism is about being in the world. You see the world, but don’t see meaning, or as you say, you “know” there is no meaning, so you use your will to make the world nothing. But trying to make it nothing is inconsistent with it being nothing. Dropping all sense of morality and doing whatever you want would also be inconsistent, because it’s doing something.
I actually did find Nihilism in Buddhism and there is justification for it since the final step of the path is discarding everything you learned on the path. That is the point of the Heart Sutra in Buddhism which is essentially saying "you know everyone we taught you? Forget it, it's all wrong". It's not about being in the world but rather liberation from it. Also I am willing nothing, I have no will. You could say that I am liked to a rock at some points, having no will. I don't make the the world nothing it is nothing as meaning is something we will on the world. Stop willing meaning and you get what has always been, nothing. Hence the Buddhism phrase of "everything is nothing".
Nietzsche failed to adequately deal with Nihilism and it is even recorded that he went nearly insane trying to overcome it and failed to do so. The “will to nothingness” it actually incorrect in it’s claim for nothingness has always been, all you do is simply realize it when things are stripped away. So it’s not something that is sought but rather what is revealed in the attempt to seek. I’m going to ignore the irony that Nietzsche didn’t follow his own philosophy and died in a less than Ubermensch fashion. But I am not being inconsistent, it’s just very difficult to drop the illusion (something that Buddhism also mentions) of meaning.
Since 3pt is taking a break, I’ll jump in here. His posts are just fine. Your’s are inconsistent. If the rest of the universe listened to your logic, it would just collapse on itself and not exist. You’ve never really even defined nihilism. You jump straight to choosing a reaction before you realize how absurd it is that you would do that.
With mental illness, I realize that choices are not really made, that the illness is in control, but healthy minds aren’t actually in control either, according to some models. So, I can’t diagnose you remotely, I can only respond to what you say you are concluding and how you got there. And I can see bad choices.
Actually the universe would not collapse in on it’s and cease to exist. Meaning is irrelevant to the physical processes that tick on. Rather human society as we know it would not exist with the lies dispelled. His posts have said nothing of value to combat nihilism and try to assert what isn’t there upon reality. And as I have tried to say multiple times I can’t pretend meaning exists anymore, eventually it will cease happening altogether.
Nihilism, like Solipsism, are problems that sadly have no solution. At least with Solipsism there isn’t evidence to support it.
Nihilism, like Solipsism, are problems that sadly have no solution. At least with Solipsism there isn’t evidence to support it.
You're confusing "solution" with probability. A common mistake of amateur philosophers. You're right that I can't prove you are not a brain in a vat, but it's highly improbable that you are, so why would act like a brain a vat? The lack of inherent meaning in the universe is quite a bit more probable. I can't show you meaning existing somewhere. It's most likely a construct of our nature, something that goes away once we stop existing. But I can't find how it being a construct should cause me to feel any certain way either. I'm here, I'm feeling these things, I can even control those feelings to some extent, Why settle on some certainty about how meaningless this will seem a million years from now?
No one is asking you to pretend anything BTW, so you can stop repeating that.
I know no one is asking me to pretend, but when it comes to things in the world having no objective meaning, behaving otherwise is tantamount to faking it.
I know no one is asking me to pretend, but when it comes to things in the world having no objective meaning, behaving otherwise is tantamount to faking it.
Only because you decided that acting a certain way is "faking it". But you've taken a conclusion about the timeless universe and applied it to you, that's tantamount to going against your nature.
Likewise with solipsism it seems safer to act like nothing is real so you don’t lose anything as a result.
Nothing to lose except your time on this earth. Regardless of what time is or what it means to spend it. There's more Nietzsche to come. You can look it up yourself he did "solve" nihilism, but not in the way you think it needs to be solved.
Only because you decided that acting a certain way is “faking it”. But you’ve taken a conclusion about the timeless universe and applied it to you, that’s tantamount to going against your nature.
Not really, you act as though there is a "separateness from the universe" when you posted a video where the guy said to the universe "I am you". It's meaningless all around. It reminds me of the Broward meditation of clearing away the picture mind in order to live in truth and "freedom".
Also I did read Nietzsche but he didn’t solve nihilism so much as assert a lie.
As for Solipsism, it’s too risky to attempt to invest yourself in a world you can’t be sure is real.
I kind of figured you’d say Nietzsche is wrong, you think you know more than anyone, but I’ll set that aside for a moment. What “truth and freedom” are you wanting to live in? You’ve been talking about sitting around and vegetating until you waste away. Is that what you call “freedom”? I said recently that you’ve never really defined what nihilism is, and now you are really confusing me on what “live in truth” is. You keep saying you can’t “live a lie”, but you don’t have a “truth” to live, so I’m not sure what that even means. The “lie” part, I understand, but you have that wrong. The “live” part, it doesn’t seem like you’ve given it much thought.