Need to confront the Trump faithful with the truth and some values

Re: Pompeo. He has gone the way of Bill Bahr and the DOJ. Bahr has made the Dept of Justice just a Defense Attorney team for Trump. So, in effect, we have lost our Dept of Justice. Now, the same thing with the State Department, which has become an extension of T rump’s campaign efforts.

Lev and Igor helped and supported Rudy in undermining our existing State Dept personnel in Ukraine. Pompeo let that happen. He is now in Kansas about some political race? The Secretary of State??

BTW it looks like Lev and Igor were arranging 100’s of thousands of dollars for Rudy. That probably came thru Kolimnic a Russian oligarch and mafia-like figure. They were not in Ukraine to root out corruption, they were there to be corrupt. They got the real ambassador kicked out of the picture. That was Yosonvich who was actually helping the Ukraine to deal with corruption issues, until she was forced out.

Actually I think a root problem is that I don’t hear any liberals defending what they’re all about.

Politicians are all stuck in a pro-growth world,


Aren’t the big players in the Democratic party pro-growth? I’m not sure you can get to be a big player if you aren’t. When not talking about infrastructure and the military and protecting the oil economy though, Democrats tend to do better on human rights, health care, diversity, human rights and other non-growth issues. That includes recognizing the economic needs of places like coal country and looking for solutions that are real, not just ones that speak to their feelings about their traditions.

I think they are all pro-growth (necessarily so, as you suggest, but perhaps practically so, too, as they see things a bit differently than Greta and CC).

I am not sure about Yang. His paradigm is radically different from the norm, even from the Democratic Socialist. Idk how he views continuing economic growth.

It seems to me that addressing all the ways that T rump and his following are successfully attacking our system of government is a greater priority than figuring out right now whether growth can be further sustained safely.

Cause it is just a fact that our underlying economic system is NOT going to be replaced anytime soon, without some cataclysmic occurrence (and probably not even then, in a good way). 1st and foremost, those who care about the future must re-gain political power.

Number 1 would be the sanctity of truth itself. (I mean even a wee bit of sanctity. They treat truth like a crack Ho that has long since reached her expiration date).
Truth is always on life support in politics.
Loyalty to allies might be a good value.
Nice idea but most of those allies are pawns, and they should never come before American lives.
Realizing it is horribly wrong to separate young children from their primary caregivers and thereby screw up their development.
They shouldn’t have come here. Blame their parents for rushing the border and overwhelming our ability to handle the situation.
Valuing the future rather than dismissing the reality of climate change.
True, but not a big issue for most of us.
Valuing the former controls and system of ethics, and system of checks and balances in our govt, instead of trying to bulldoze it all down for the sake of T rump having more autocratic power. (The DOJ, says the President cannot be indicted of any crime. And now they are arguing all the way to the supreme court that the President cannot even be investigated.)
We already do that.
Recognizing their own massive amount of corruption, instead of ignoring it, while paying lip service to draining a swamp.
How are Trump supporters corrupt?
The MAGA heads also need to recognize that T rump only cares about their wellbeing to the extent that they are available to support him and maintain his power. And recognize that he is supporting the wealthy in his economic actions, not the working class.
He doesn’t have to love us — no president is there for strictly altruistic reasons. He’s doing more for the working class by attempting to curb immigration and free trade than anybody since I’ve been of voting age.
 

 

 

In the following dialogue, italics are statements by TimB. Bolded are statements by OneGuy.

 

Number 1 would be the sanctity of truth itself. (I mean even a wee bit of sanctity. They treat truth like a crack Ho that has long since reached her expiration date).
Truth is always on life support in politics. That is a blatant attempt at false equivalency. The truth under T rump is under a whole new level of attack. Like saying we’ve always used to much salt in our food, so now it’s ok to have a toxic level of salt in one meal.

Loyalty to allies might be a good value.
Nice idea but most of those allies are pawns, and they should never come before American lives. Betraying allies will most likely result, ultimately, in the loss of MORE American lives. Once there were some mujahedeen who were pawns of ours. One pawn, became a queen and BAM! 9/11 happened.

Realizing it is horribly wrong to separate young children from their primary caregivers and thereby screw up their development.
They shouldn’t have come here. Blame their parents for rushing the border and overwhelming our ability to handle the situation. So they should have stayed where they were and died, or let their sons become gang members and their daughters become whores of gang members? Instead of seeking asylum per international law? We were unable to handle the influx, due to the T rump admin’s shocking incompetence, and experiments with punishing them as a potential (tho unlikely) deterent to others.

Valuing the future rather than dismissing the reality of climate change.
True, but not a big issue for most of us. Just an issue for anyone who cares about future generations.

Valuing the former controls and system of ethics, and system of checks and balances in our govt, instead of trying to bulldoze it all down for the sake of T rump having more autocratic power. (The DOJ, says the President cannot be indicted of any crime. And now they are arguing all the way to the supreme court that the President cannot even be investigated.)
We already do that. If you valued our system of govt. You would, I think, have some major problems with all that T rump has done, is doing and will do (if he gets the chance) to unravel it so that he can center all power to himself.

Recognizing their own massive amount of corruption, instead of ignoring it, while paying lip service to draining a swamp.
How are Trump supporters corrupt? Their wilfull ignorance of all of the corruption within the T rump adminsitration while they chant “Drain the swamp!” That seems pretty damn corrupt to me.

The MAGA heads also need to recognize that T rump only cares about their wellbeing to the extent that they are available to support him and maintain his power. And recognize that he is supporting the wealthy in his economic actions, not the working class.
He doesn’t have to love us — no president is there for strictly altruistic reasons. He’s doing more for the working class by attempting to curb immigration and free trade than anybody since I’ve been of voting age. Do you really think that? Oneguy, I realize you have your foibles and tendencies toward the white supremacy bent, but I generally think of you as fair minded in your belief system. How has all the abuse he has perpetrated on asylum seekers helped the working class? As far as free trade, he blew up the Trans pacific partnership, and replaced it with a trade war with China that we are losing. How has that helped the middle class. How have any of the trade deals (that he had promised would be so easy to accomplish) helped the middle class, considering that NONE of them have been completed. T rump does not love the middle class, he loves their obsequiousness to him. He loves himself. He will be as loyal to the middle class as he was to the Kurds. If it comes down to whether something is better for him vs the middle class, he will say that he doesn’t know the middle class, he wishes them well, but they are just pawns and are no doubt corrupt, anyway, as their interests are not aligned with his own.

How did the vaunted tax revision, the ONLY major legislation passed under T rump, help the middle class, unless they are part of the middle class that has a hell of a lot of savings in the stock market? Tho the rich have a LOT of savings in the stock market. The middle class are probably at an overall decrease in money compared to before that legislation. Surely nothing to be proud of if you are really a champion of the middle class. He is however a champion of the wealthy, like himself.

The middle class who support T rump are chumps, from my perspective.

Here’s a good generic campaign slogan: “Don’t Be A Trump Chump!” “Don’t Be A Trump Chump!” “Don’t Be A Trump Chump!” “Don’t Be A Trump Chump!” “Don’t Be A Trump Chump!” “Don’t Be A Trump Chump!” “Don’t Be A Trump Chump!” “Don’t Be A Trump Chump!” “Don’t Be A Trump Chump!”… you get the idea.

Sure, but you say stuff about hitting them below the belt, so that’s not “engaging”.
Right and it's trying to connect. Sometimes that takes a good cold slap across the face. It's just how the real world is.
You don’t stop talking about issues when you talk about economics.
But no one wants to talk real economics!!!

Since the bottomline is: the faster we make our economy “Grow” the faster we are going to destroy the life support system we and our gluttonous economy absolutely totally positively depends on - and their ain’t no more.

 

Also, Lausten I don’t understand why it always seems to get lost on people that confronting braindead jerks (to go for labeling the most extreme end of their spectrum.) intelligently - also provides education to our own uninformed apathetic chorus!!!

Listen to the news - it’s always playing right into GOP malicious lying storyline - I’m constantly hearing about the attempts to make the Ukrainians “investigate Biden” When the reality is that it’s was all about “Fabricating A Scandal about Biden” - so why the f’n hell don’t they approach this story from that angle - but no, always give the GOP the benefit of doubt to the point of totally disconnecting from physical reality and basic humanity.

instead

Lets play it all by the GOP script because liberals are too lazy and lack the imagination to formulate a story based on respecting physical reality and truth towards well understood facts. The tired truism of the past century no long hold in this brave new last century of humanity’s destructive reign over Earth.

 

Another for instance, why the heck isn’t there something like WTFJHT that laser focuses on FOX NEWS deceptions and conspiracies to manipulate public understanding. NO, instead we roll our eyes and … and … nothing*.

*meaningful, significant or successful.

 

Oh excuse me, do i sound pissed off? Well, watching our values and democracy getting irreparably vandalized, is worth being pissed off about, especially after hearing a few rounds of talking news heads babbling on as though this were football game instead of our actual future - brings it to the surface.

ThatOneGuy: Truth is always on life support in politics.
What the hell does that mean? Sure sounds like you're implying truth is meaningless. Is that how it works these days?
and they should never come before American lives.
So you are saying, ME FIRST and fuck everyone else? You don't think a healthy community requires cooperation among people and sense of duty towards others. Instead, sound like your world it's all about ME, ME, ME. fyi http://citizenschallenge.blogspot.com/2008/08/historic-snafu-in-need-of-revisiting.html
They shouldn’t have come here.
Your a cold one. Of course you conveniently ignore that it's American corporate interests and American political and military bully that's created the conditions that are making life unbearable in those place we've exploited with such flippant disregard for others, let alone the cascading consequences we were creating for our future.

https://citizentruth.org/us-policy-is-inextricably-linked-to-the-refugee-crisis-in-central-america/

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/books/review/Kurtz-Phelan-t.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_Wars

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America

(every regime change was instigated by ME FIRST american attitudes, in reckless disregard for the real world consequences of the Ugly Americans’ unquenchable avarice)

How are Trump supporters corrupt?
It begins with their dependence on lying, and their new found Absolute Disregard for Truth and Honesty.

It is compounding by their wanton fabrication of lies to drive their storyline,

also their absolute refusal to conduct constructive dialogue - they are all about shouting down others and closing down their eyes, ears and brains to all new evidence or idea.

Their total rejection of American FairPlay Principles also indicate a damned corrupted soul and intellect.

Oh ignoring climate science (well, also their rejection of every other Science that doesn’t add to their gluttonous need for more wealth) also indicates a deep, deep rot in the souls of the Trump’s Teabaggers GOP.

Could go on, but I’m out of time.

 

TimB, good post up there. Too bad you’re one of the rare individuals who still believes in our good ol American principles and the need to vocally stand up for them. Where are the others???

okay, I should leave this on a more positive note, so I’ll hand it over to Tim:

Do you really think that? Oneguy,

I realize you have your foibles and tendencies toward the white supremacy bent, but I generally think of you as fair minded in your belief system.

How has all the abuse he has perpetrated on asylum seekers helped the working class?

As far as free trade, he blew up the Trans pacific partnership, and replaced it with a trade war with China that we are losing. How has that helped the middle class. How have any of the trade deals (that he had promised would be so easy to accomplish) helped the middle class, considering that NONE of them have been completed.

T rump does not love the middle class, he loves their obsequiousness to him. He loves himself.

He will be as loyal to the middle class as he was to the Kurds.

If it comes down to whether something is better for him vs the middle class, he will say that he doesn’t know the middle class, he wishes them well, but they are just pawns and are no doubt corrupt, anyway, as their interests are not aligned with his own.

Sure, but you say stuff about hitting them below the belt, so that’s not “engaging”. --Me

Right and it’s trying to connect. Sometimes that takes a good cold slap across the face. It’s just how the real world is. – CC


Well, we live in different worlds then.

You don’t stop talking about issues when you talk about economics. -- Me

But no one wants to talk real economics!!! – CC


Which is why not just anyone should get elected to office. You should know complex math, and be able to communicate it to people who don’t.

Also, Lausten I don’t understand why it always seems to get lost on people that confronting braindead jerks (to go for labeling the most extreme end of their spectrum.) intelligently – also provides education to our own uninformed apathetic chorus!!!
I think a lot of people get that.
Listen to the news – it’s always playing right into GOP malicious lying storyline – I’m constantly hearing about the attempts to make the Ukrainians “investigate Biden”
I mostly listen to NPR, who has been repeating that the Hunter Biden story is a conspiracy theory. Mainstream media has been doing that too, maybe not as much. FOX on the other hand, is repeating the conspiracy, but that’s free speech.
Another for instance, why the heck isn’t there something like WTFJHT
I don’t understand the question. There is this something. It’s the new type of news outlet that is developing.
NO, instead we roll our eyes and ………… and …………. nothing*.
We’re moving ahead with impeachment. What am I not understanding?

 

 

Oh, nice, I was quoted by CC. I am honored.

I understand the passion/anger/fear/despair that may accompany someone with the foresight to recognize where our society is headed with the new found normalization of profound lies being told repetitively to all of us. It can’t be good. It could be very terrible.

We are not winning the war on truth. But losing the war on truth is really not an option that we want to face.

Here is what one can foresee about the current impeachment process: The evidence will be overwhelming of T rump’s guilt. Despite that, when the articles of impeachment are addressed in trial in the Senate, the Republicans will NOT remove T rump from office. T rump will claim victory and will claim that the witch hunt and attempted coup against him, failed yet again. Truth dies a little more.

So you are saying, ME FIRST and fuck everyone else? You don’t think a healthy community requires cooperation among people and sense of duty towards others. Instead, sound like your world it’s all about ME, ME, ME.
My community comes first, and Central Americans are not part of my community.
 

 


 

Your a cold one. Of course you conveniently ignore that it’s American corporate interests and American political and military bully that’s created the conditions that are making life unbearable in those place we’ve exploited with such flippant disregard for others, let alone the cascading consequences we were creating for our future.

(every regime change was instigated by ME FIRST american attitudes, in reckless disregard for the real world consequences of the Ugly Americans’ unquenchable avarice)


I’m well aware of US imperialism in Central America. It was long ago and has little to do with the current refugees who are escaping the usual poverty and casual violence that is always found in mestizo and Indian populations everywhere in Latin America.

They’re also trying to make a point that they can’t be stopped.

Just because something happened before you were born, that doesn’t make make it long ago

OneGuy, the poor Central Americans who survive to gain asylum in the US are not hurting your community. They’re not rapists and drug dealers and murderers. They may need a few social services for awhile, or not. But they will also probably get jobs and help pay in to my Social Security (which they may never be eligible to get for themselves). Financially they are probably a net plus. Remember your hero said, “…and some of them, I assume, are good people”. These are good people, with quite possibly a lower % of drug dealers and rapists and killers than exist in your community, already. You should be lobbying for lots and lots of them to come to your community, so that the per capita murder, rape, and drug dealerships would go down.

Climate change has brought drought and famine to Central America. Is this our fault? Is it our fault that we are not even in the Paris Climate Accords?

OneGuy, the poor Central Americans who survive to gain asylum in the US are not hurting your community. They’re not rapists and drug dealers and murderers. They may need a few social services for awhile, or not. But they will also probably get jobs and help pay in to my Social Security (which they may never be eligible to get for themselves). Financially they are probably a net plus. Remember your hero said, “…and some of them, I assume, are good people”. These are good people, with quite possibly a lower % of drug dealers and rapists and killers than exist in your community, already. You should be lobbying for lots and lots of them to come to your community, so that the per capita murder, rape, and drug dealerships would go down.
They are already in my community and they add nothing but make things worse. I don’t need some desperate low IQ indian who deficates in the storm drains driving down wages any more because they’re willing to work for almost nothing.

You’re saying he’s a scab and a drain hole crapper. That’s a step up from your hero’s attribution of asylum seekers (murderer and rapist).

Are you starting to come out from the darkside?

I’m well aware of US imperialism in Central America. It was long ago
Lausten here's an example why I irritate my own side. You respond that it was long ago.

What the hell does that mean??? It started long ago, but it sure as hell carries into our day!!!

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/latin-america-war-on-drugs-colombia-coca-honduras-donald-trump-a8744266.html

https://witnessforpeace.org/six-reasons-the-drug-war-is-disastrous-for-latin-america/