Quoting Darron:Heh-heh. Try getting men to agree to that. LoisThere is no excuse for such behavior, but there also seems no lack of people willing to stand up for misogynists and excuse their actions. This has to stop.I know that most males who don't engage in such behavior say they have self-control, however, it's much easier for them to have self-control when they aren't in an extemely powerful position. I seem to recall a S-F story a few years ago where all males were given a shot at about ten years old that completely shut down testosterone production. Only when a woman wanted to have sex and/or get pregnant could she file a document with a govt. doctor who would then give a counteracting shot that would last for one day. Maybe that's how it will stop. Occam
Hadn't heard, but people who are at the forefront of rational thought are always vulnerable to such accusations. When the opposition (also known as christians) can't think of a good argument, they turn to sex allegations. LoisThese aren't Christians making allegations, they are prominent women in the skeptical community. Instead of dismissing the allegations out of hand I suggest you and Occam read the back story about what has been going on and how CFI has blundered once again. Republicans misdeeds are irrelevant to how men in the skeptical community act toward women. That is not only a red herring it is a tu quoque fallacy. I must apologize. I thought you were referring to Rebecca Watson's experience at a skeptical conference. I had not heard about Karen D's experience before. She as a right to be outraged. What a terrible situation she's had to endure. Lois
I haven’t heard any such nonsense but then again, a great deal of nonsense does come from the Bible thumpers so I wouldn’t be surprised.
I haven't heard any such nonsense but then again, a great deal of nonsense does come from the Bible thumpers so I wouldn't be surprised.deros, I think you posted in the wrong thread. Edit: Shoulda checked the spelling of deros before hitting submit. Autocorrect got me again. Fixed it.
Thought not discussed in her article, I also don't see any mention of this in other articles I've read, which to me is a perfect case of sexual harassment, namely women who wear provocative clothing. How is a women wearing stiletto heels, low-cut blouse, tight skirt and very red lipstick, flashy jewelry, etc, i.e. what most would consider prostitutes clothes, how is that different from a man showing a sexual picture around? (And I'm not talking about business casual womens attire). I've worked in several professional places where women dress like that and somehow *that's* not harassment? Double standard.Congratulations CuthbertJ, you managed to hit the trifecta: red herring, misogyny and victim blaming all in one post. What a load of garbage.I knew you wouldn't be able to have an honest discussion of the topic. You know exactly what I mean, and yet you come up with a "witty" comment that avoids the point. Being fake self-righteous moves the discussion nowhere. First, did I miss something in her article where she does in fact refer to sexual harassment as something that can occur to a man? (And whether or not she did has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that she was harassed and that the perp should get what coming to him. Try to make that mental leap please.) If I did miss that part, then my mistake. 2nd, what part of my post you quoted was misogynistic? You mean to tell me you've never seen a women dressed extremely inappropriately in a professional workplace? If you say you haven't, you're a liar, or you've never had a real job. If you say you don't know what inappropriate is, you're a liar again. And regardless, how is saying a professional women is dressing like a prostitute misogynistic? Maybe you hate women and prostitutes so in your mind that's hate speech. I don't have that hang up. I absolutely love women, especially when they dress provocatively...just not at work when I'm supposed to be concentrating on work. If I were gay, and it was a guy dressing like a gigolo it'd be the same exact thing. Again, make the mental leap please. 3rd, point out where I blame the victim? I made it clear I thought she was being harassed. You know Darron, I wish you'd even out. Sometimes you make some excellent posts and I enjoy reading and learning. And then like above you post unthinking nonsense. God that's exasperating. Oh and the other guy who asked if I thought I was being harassed by every provocatively dressed women. Read my post...I made it clear I'm talking about in the workplace. Outside the workplace anything goes, it's a womens choice and not mens place to dictate "the norm". Again, try to make the mental leap with Darron.
First, did I miss something in her article where she does in fact refer to sexual harassment as something that can occur to a man? (And whether or not she did has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that she was harassed and that the perp should get what coming to him. Try to make that mental leap please.) If I did miss that part, then my mistake.Why should Stollznow be required to mention women can harass men? The subject was a man harassing her. Bringing up the possibility that women can harass men is a red herring in this context.
2nd, what part of my post you quoted was misogynistic? You mean to tell me you've never seen a women dressed extremely inappropriately in a professional workplace? If you say you haven't, you're a liar, or you've never had a real job. If you say you don't know what inappropriate is, you're a liar again. And regardless, how is saying a professional women is dressing like a prostitute misogynistic? Maybe you hate women and prostitutes so in your mind that's hate speech. I don't have that hang up. I absolutely love women, especially when they dress provocatively...just not at work when I'm supposed to be concentrating on work. If I were gay, and it was a guy dressing like a gigolo it'd be the same exact thing. Again, make the mental leap please.The misogynistic part and the victim blaming part are the same. Women can dress as they please at any place I've worked as long as they are not breaking any laws regarding exhibitionism. Doesn't bother me a bit if women want to wear short skirts and/or show some cleavage at work, and it does not keep me from concentrating on my job.
3rd, point out where I blame the victim? I made it clear I thought she was being harassed.Maybe I was reaching at the above just so I could use the word "trifecta," but we have a huge problem in our society with women being blamed when they are victims of harassment, groping and rape. Calling what you think is inappropriate dress in the workplace sexual harassment is ridiculous. Dressing provocatively is not harassment. Coercing someone into sex, threatening to keep her/him from getting a promotion or project unless they have sex with you is harassment. Groping women or men at conventions is assault.
You know Darron, I wish you'd even out. Sometimes you make some excellent posts and I enjoy reading and learning. And then like above you post unthinking nonsense. God that's exasperating.I find it exasperating that someone would say women who do not dress according to his individual standards are engaging in harassment.
Oh and the other guy who asked if I thought I was being harassed by every provocatively dressed women. Read my post...I made it clear I'm talking about in the workplace. Outside the workplace anything goes, it's a womens choice and not mens place to dictate "the norm". Again, try to make the mental leap with Darron.I'm glad to hear that, but I still disagree with you about the workplace issue. There are some workplaces (court of law, for example) where dressing provocatively would be inappropriate, but at the newspapers and high tech companies where I have worked it has never been an issue.
Thought not discussed in her article, I also don't see any mention of this in other articles I've read, which to me is a perfect case of sexual harassment, namely women who wear provocative clothing. How is a women wearing stiletto heels, low-cut blouse, tight skirt and very red lipstick, flashy jewelry, etc, i.e. what most would consider prostitutes clothes, how is that different from a man showing a sexual picture around? (And I'm not talking about business casual womens attire). I've worked in several professional places where women dress like that and somehow *that's* not harassment? Double standard.Congratulations CuthbertJ, you managed to hit the trifecta: red herring, misogyny and victim blaming all in one post. What a load of garbage.I knew you wouldn't be able to have an honest discussion of the topic. You know exactly what I mean, and yet you come up with a "witty" comment that avoids the point. Being fake self-righteous moves the discussion nowhere. First, did I miss something in her article where she does in fact refer to sexual harassment as something that can occur to a man? (And whether or not she did has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that she was harassed and that the perp should get what coming to him. Try to make that mental leap please.) If I did miss that part, then my mistake. 2nd, what part of my post you quoted was misogynistic? You mean to tell me you've never seen a women dressed extremely inappropriately in a professional workplace? If you say you haven't, you're a liar, or you've never had a real job. If you say you don't know what inappropriate is, you're a liar again. And regardless, how is saying a professional women is dressing like a prostitute misogynistic? Maybe you hate women and prostitutes so in your mind that's hate speech. I don't have that hang up. I absolutely love women, especially when they dress provocatively...just not at work when I'm supposed to be concentrating on work. If I were gay, and it was a guy dressing like a gigolo it'd be the same exact thing. Again, make the mental leap please. 3rd, point out where I blame the victim? I made it clear I thought she was being harassed. You know Darron, I wish you'd even out. Sometimes you make some excellent posts and I enjoy reading and learning. And then like above you post unthinking nonsense. God that's exasperating. Oh and the other guy who asked if I thought I was being harassed by every provocatively dressed women. Read my post...I made it clear I'm talking about in the workplace. Outside the workplace anything goes, it's a womens choice and not mens place to dictate "the norm". Again, try to make the mental leap with Darron. Anybody can be harrassed or assaulted by members of the same or opposite sex. The difference is that men are less likely to report it or to make an issue of it. This has a lot to do with the male psyche and a desire to not be seen as a victim or as weak. Most would rather pretend it never happened. That's why it seems to be less prevalent among men. Other men, too, would probably harass him for speaking up, implying that it makes him look as if he can't protect himself or that he's a wimp. The tough guy instinct. Lois
I wouldn’t mind at all getting raped by a woman. 
I wouldn't mind at all getting raped by a woman. :-)I know you're kidding (I think), and my first reaction to Lois' post was most men don't mind when women come on to them. Part of it is we're naturally horn dogs because we don't have to worry about getting pregnant, and the other part is we're bigger and stronger than most women, so not as vulnerable. I've never felt uncomfortable when alone in an elevator with a woman, but I can definitely understand why Rebecca Watson would feel threatened when she's in an elevator with some guy she just met that night and he asks her to join him in his room for a cup of coffee, especially when she'd just given a speech asking men not to act like that. And I do enjoy it when women dress provocatively, even at work. My enjoyment has never had a negative impact on my productivity, though.
Oh and the other guy who asked if I thought I was being harassed by every provocatively dressed women. Read my post...I made it clear I'm talking about in the workplace. Outside the workplace anything goes, it's a womens choice and not mens place to dictate "the norm". Again, try to make the mental leap with Darron.Sorry, it wasn't clear. Hence my question. :) I'm not sure I would consider provocatively dressed at work as sexual harassment. Although I guess I can see it from the angle of how if someone's attire makes any one uncomfortable that's all that matters in that case. And the employee should be asked to 'dress appropriately'. Hmm... Certainly a tangent, but I wonder if a company had no clear dress code if asking the person to dress more conservatively could be considered a form of harassment itself? Take care, Derek
And I do enjoy it when women dress provocatively, even at work. My enjoyment has never had a negative impact on my productivity, though.Oh, it has had a negative impact on my productivity--thank God!
I wouldn't mind at all getting raped by a woman. :-)Wouldn't it depend on what she looked like? A little off topic, but what about the situations where a women lies to a man about birth control in order to become pregnant and get child support? Could that be considered sexual harassment of some sort?
Hmm... Certainly a tangent, but I wonder if a company had no clear dress code if asking the person to dress more conservatively could be considered a form of harassment itself? Take care, DerekIt seems very possible.
A little off topic, but what about the situations where a women lies to a man about birth control in order to become pregnant and get child support?I don't know. A man could deliberately puncture his condom, which I doubt would be considered illegal. Plus, either of these cases would be difficult to prove. But that's probably true for most of the allegations related to sex.
I wouldn't mind at all getting raped by a woman. :-)I know what you're meaning is, but your comment also brings out why the topic is a tough one. You can't "not mind getting raped", it's in the definition that the victim does mind. (And I know you didn't mean anything to downplay rape of course). But in some folks, I think a lot of conservatives in the US at least, and absolutely certain men in India, and various Muslim countries, that IS the feeling. Hey it's a fun thing, just sit back and enjoy. Repulsive but that attitude does exist even to the extent that it creeps into otherwise well meaning discussion. And BTW...I do think my post a few up was a bit harsh. For the record I think women are beautiful in every sense of the word, and should rule the world. In my life I've found most men to be unthinking brutes, and most women to be thoughtful caring individuals. Some men of course, like in forums like CFI are decent, but in the "real world" I just haven't seen or know of that many, especially in government in any country at any time in history. And let's face it, you see a man in a thong, no matter how muscular, and it's repulsive! I mean even a gay guy can't look me in the eye and say Albert Brooks butt in that bathtub scene in The In-laws was cute.
I don’t think it’s possible for man to say, No! No! No! Stop! Stop! Stop! During sex.
A little off topic, but what about the situations where a women lies to a man about birth control in order to become pregnant and get child support?I don't know. A man could deliberately puncture his condom, which I doubt would be considered illegal. Plus, either of these cases would be difficult to prove. But that's probably true for most of the allegations related to sex.Yeah, anything sexual is nearly impossible to prove. Why would a man trying to avoid paternity deliberately puncture a condom?
I wouldn't mind at all getting raped by a woman. :-)I know what you're meaning is, but your comment also brings out why the topic is a tough one. You can't "not mind getting raped", it's in the definition that the victim does mind. (And I know you didn't mean anything to downplay rape of course). But in some folks, I think a lot of conservatives in the US at least, and absolutely certain men in India, and various Muslim countries, that IS the feeling. Hey it's a fun thing, just sit back and enjoy. Repulsive but that attitude does exist even to the extent that it creeps into otherwise well meaning discussion. And BTW...I do think my post a few up was a bit harsh. For the record I think women are beautiful in every sense of the word, and should rule the world. In my life I've found most men to be unthinking brutes, and most women to be thoughtful caring individuals. Some men of course, like in forums like CFI are decent, but in the "real world" I just haven't seen or know of that many, especially in government in any country at any time in history. And let's face it, you see a man in a thong, no matter how muscular, and it's repulsive! I mean even a gay guy can't look me in the eye and say Albert Brooks butt in that bathtub scene in The In-laws was cute.You must be lacking in a certain male department, to think that way. :coolgrin: Seriously, you've known most men in every country throughout history? You know what all men in the Muslim world feel? You know what everybody should find attractive? You think all women are perfect? Did you get beat up a lot as a kid?
I wouldn't mind at all getting raped by a woman. :-)I know what you're meaning is, but your comment also brings out why the topic is a tough one. You can't "not mind getting raped", it's in the definition that the victim does mind. (And I know you didn't mean anything to downplay rape of course). But in some folks, I think a lot of conservatives in the US at least, and absolutely certain men in India, and various Muslim countries, that IS the feeling. Hey it's a fun thing, just sit back and enjoy. Repulsive but that attitude does exist even to the extent that it creeps into otherwise well meaning discussion. And BTW...I do think my post a few up was a bit harsh. For the record I think women are beautiful in every sense of the word, and should rule the world. In my life I've found most men to be unthinking brutes, and most women to be thoughtful caring individuals. Some men of course, like in forums like CFI are decent, but in the "real world" I just haven't seen or know of that many, especially in government in any country at any time in history. And let's face it, you see a man in a thong, no matter how muscular, and it's repulsive! I mean even a gay guy can't look me in the eye and say Albert Brooks butt in that bathtub scene in The In-laws was cute.You must be lacking in a certain male department, to think that way. :coolgrin: Seriously, you've known most men in every country throughout history? You know what all men in the Muslim world feel? You know what everybody should find attractive? You think all women are perfect? Did you get beat up a lot as a kid?Did you even read my post? Oh wait, I get it. You're being sarcastic. You're only acting as if you can't form cogent response to a simple post. Good one ;)
And BTW...I do think my post a few up was a bit harsh. For the record I think women are beautiful in every sense of the word, and should rule the world. In my life I've found most men to be unthinking brutes, and most women to be thoughtful caring individuals. Some men of course, like in forums like CFI are decent, but in the "real world" I just haven't seen or know of that many, especially in government in any country at any time in history.And I most likely overreacted to your post. This is an emotional topic for me because I was raised to respect women. Reading about men I admired for their eloquence and courage to stand up for atheism and humanism harassing women at conventions and even raping women gets me riled up. Must be the Texan in me.