Major Accusations

Come on, Darron. I’ve always admired your precision and accuracy, however, it seems that this subject may cause some problem. If you check the paragraph you quoted, I used the words, “most males” and “much easier”. Neither seems to imply “all men”.
Occam

I would even contest the use of “most males” in this context. Neither of us has any empirical data, but from my admittedly anecdotal observations most men, even those in positions of power, do not harass and grope women. We hear about the high profile cases, such as Ben Radford and others, but never hear about the majority of men who behave themselves and treat women with respect, with the exception of Alan Alda.
You seem to be saying that being in a powerful position turns men into predators.

The reason why I doubt that most men in power harras women, is because it would be a bad strategy to achieve anything. Although powerful men do probably take more risks than the averag guy, it doesn’t imply that they must be a-holes. I agree wih Daron on this one.

...As such, behavior among members of the group, particularly influential ones, may be scrutinized to evaluate the effectiveness of the philosophy. When that behavior appears to be inconsistent or inappropriate, the effectiveness of the philosophy may be called into question, and the phenomenon and its relationship to the practice of the philosophy should be examined. ...
Wha??? How does this make good sense? If for whatever reason in the next few years, twenty cases of rapes occur due to firemen, is there a necessity to question the "philosophy" of firefighting?

I’m tired of the stereotype assumption that men are somehow innately guilty by nature of being male (or having testosterone, etc.) The truth is, women are as much to blame if not more so for usually being the most influential parent in a child’s life. I don’t think that I should have to point out the fact that large portions of our populations are made up of single mothers!! This doesn’t take away the fault of the usually ‘absent’ males. But I assure you, women are the deciding factor in what sexual relationships will actually occur or not. I still have yet to meet any woman yet who doesn’t have a preference for those very domineering and aggressive qualities that set the potential stage for abuse.
Even the fact that some people here seem to be assuming a trust for those claims, something else should be considered: While males have been preferentially evolved for physical strengths, women have been empowered by their more social aspects; this IS a strength just as powerful as physical force itself. When you consider how many more men are imprisoned over women, instead of just thinking that men are the culprit, who’s to say that women are just not the more clever?

Firefighting is not a philosophical stance.

Firefighting is not a philosophical stance.
So you don't agree to the philosophy that a community should have an emergency response department specialized in taking out fire?
What if these women (and Myers) are lying? In Lawrence Krauss's case it appears he defended a person named Jeffrey Epstein from accusations of hiring underage prostitutes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Epstein Bad judgement, perhaps, but not an immediate indication of being a sex offender. Shermer is being accused of rape by PZ Myers, essentially - not much else to go on there. Radford is accused of raping Karen Stollznow on more then one occasion :question: :exclaim: This one is probably going to be deeper. I can't find anything specific about Nye, except that some female skeptics find him sleazy, and include him on the list of offenders.
Please stick to facts. No one is accusing any of these men of rape. They have been accused of sexual harassment. Spreading lies does not help. You need to read what the women posted, not third-hand misinformation.At this point there are no "facts"; but, Karen Stollznow has claimed in "Scientific American", that she was sexually harassed and sexually assaulted by a man whom her associates have said is Ben Radford. This CFI link has several links to the situation. http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/what_i_wrote_to_scientific_american/ And PZ Myers has actually accused Michael Shermer of raping a female associate. http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/08/08/what-do-you-do-when-someone-pulls-the-pin-and-hands-you-a-grenade/

Sexual harassment, while vile, socially unacceptable and potentially job ending is one thing, sexually assaulting someone is a serious felony with dire consequences. Meyers openly accused Shermer with the crime of rape backed by nothing but anecdotal evidence and the claim wasn’t even made by the alleged victim. I’m not implying that it didn’t or couldn’t have happened, but Shermer should be tried in a court of law, not of public opinion. First off the person making the complaint must come forward and make a formal accusation via her attorney, all the while gathering damning evidence against her assailant. If this isn’t done then Shermer has a slander suit against Meyers; Shermer will be forced to protect his reputation, and he’ll probably win. Publicity like this isn’t good for the skeptic community anyway even if the allegations prove to be false.
Cap’t Jack

You’re right MA. I had missed the part about the rape allegation against Shermer, largely because I quit reading FTB. As for Stollnow’s sexual harassment allegation, CFI did acknowledge her complaint and suspended for two weeks. Ron Lindsay then sent Scientific American a letter of complaint demanding they publish an apology and corrections on three trivial points. In that letter Lindsay stated CFI has a zero tolerance policy on sexual harassment, which is an obvious lie given the light slap on the wrist Bradford received for his misconduct.

What would the women gain by lying?
[Cynicism Mode=On] Fame, money, knocking someone they dislike down a peg, discrediting a rival, street cred with the homies. Take your pick. Or maybe we would all gain safer environments for gathering together and furthering the movement. Although difficult to sort through, I read quite a bit of the "Elevator gate" incident and some of the other recent soap operas. I don't want to rehash the details, but I will say I found much of what Rebecca Watson said edifying. I wish I had some of that advice when I was much younger. Besides that, these incidents are causing organizers to review their harassment policies and tighten them up. If you think that is unnecessary, please do a little research and find some of the stories of exactly what people have had to put up with. The skeptic movement has been dominated by white haired white men, and now that it is changing, and more women are telling their stories, it really is no wonder.

<![CDATA[Any actual facts on any of these yet? I personally am just too suspicious to take accusations of sexual harassment seriously until real facts come out. The one I'm particularly leary of is Stollnow (I think it was) saying she was raped twice by Shermer? Twice? If I were a women, and god forbid that happened to me, I would make sure a) I reported everything to the police immediately afterwards, and b) that I would never allow the perp to come within miles of me. If it was at a conference, and I knew the perp was attending, I'd surround myself with friends, never let the guy get anywhere near.
I could absolutely be wrong and will admit it if the facts prove her out. But something just seems fishy. Now if this was some high school girl accusing a male teacher, different story. He's in a position of power and authority. But this evidently wasn't that.
]>

Stollznow never used the word “rape.” Sexual assault includes groping, I believe. I believe Stollznow’s story because CFI admitted they suspended Radford two weeks for his actions against her, and she has witnesses to the harassment. For the record, Stollznow’s complaint was against Radford, not Shermer. See Joe Anderson’s essay Shame on you Ben].
CFI has a serious problem on its hands, and Ron Lindsay and the board of directors are making it worse.
Edit: You can find an archived copy of Stollznow’s SciAm column here].

This makes me angry and sad. :down:
Take care,
Derek

Read the SciAm article, and ya, that’s definitely sexual harassment (SH). It’s important to realize too that in this case, it almost doesn’t matter what the actions by the perp were. She considered it harassment, asked him to stop, more than once, and he didn’t. He could have been giving her free candy in the morning and saying “sweets for my sweaty” nothing more. If she felt that was sexual harassment, it was. Of course this guy went way way beyond that. And if the others acting similarly, shame on them, and they should get what’s coming to them.
That said, the thing I don’t like is the seeming double-standard. In her article I don’t recall any mention that SH might be a women harassing a man. Double-standard.
Thought not discussed in her article, I also don’t see any mention of this in other articles I’ve read, which to me is a perfect case of sexual harassment, namely women who wear provocative clothing. How is a women wearing stiletto heels, low-cut blouse, tight skirt and very red lipstick, flashy jewelry, etc, i.e. what most would consider prostitutes clothes, how is that different from a man showing a sexual picture around? (And I’m not talking about business casual womens attire). I’ve worked in several professional places where women dress like that and somehow that’s not harassment? Double standard.

Thought not discussed in her article, I also don't see any mention of this in other articles I've read, which to me is a perfect case of sexual harassment, namely women who wear provocative clothing. How is a women wearing stiletto heels, low-cut blouse, tight skirt and very red lipstick, flashy jewelry, etc, i.e. what most would consider prostitutes clothes, how is that different from a man showing a sexual picture around? (And I'm not talking about business casual womens attire). I've worked in several professional places where women dress like that and somehow *that's* not harassment? Double standard.
Congratulations CuthbertJ, you managed to hit the trifecta: red herring, misogyny and victim blaming all in one post. What a load of garbage.
Thought not discussed in her article, I also don't see any mention of this in other articles I've read, which to me is a perfect case of sexual harassment, namely women who wear provocative clothing. How is a women wearing stiletto heels, low-cut blouse, tight skirt and very red lipstick, flashy jewelry, etc, i.e. what most would consider prostitutes clothes, how is that different from a man showing a sexual picture around? (And I'm not talking about business casual womens attire). I've worked in several professional places where women dress like that and somehow *that's* not harassment? Double standard.
Wait... Are you saying that you're being sexually harassed by any woman who is wearing revealing (by your standards) clothing? Take care, Derek

The Muslims have a cure for that by god (or Allah), the burqa. That’ll teach em not to tempt us with their glittery jewelry and revealing clothing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa
Cap’t Jack

Good one, TA.

I do not understand the structure of CFI. Nor do I really care that much. To me it is like a ride on the bus. All I need to know is where the bus is headed. I do not need to know how the engine is put together.
From a businessman’s point of view.
RE: Karen Stllznow and Benjamin Radford.
My thoughts.
I opened a bar in Sothern California which is a well known bar by the locals today.
The atmosphere was that of a neighborhood bar. The problem was that I had a couple of patch holder biker clubs wanting to hang out in the bar. These 300 pound bikers with knifes and tattoos had to fit in with the construction workers and bankers. And my goal was to have a place that woman would come to and feel comfortable. I measured my success by how many women came to the bar. To give you an idea, in one year I was pumping the most beer in San Diego County.
What I found was a smart 90 pound blond bar maid could control a dozen big bikers without even trying.
Just a quick look at Dr. Karen’s history and skills and I would hire her to control a dozen guy’s that would be making passes at her.
Something is not right here. She’s ready for the talk shows.
I don’t give a dam one way or the other. All I can contribute is my past experience.