You won’t survive in America where even seagulls can snatch your sandwich right out of your head. -- SreeWhat planet are you on? Complete this sentence: "What you do when you assume is..." Everyone over age 12 who grew up with the English language knows this one.
What planet are you on? Complete this sentence: “What you do when you assume is…” Everyone over age 12 who grew up with the English language knows this one. - LaustenI don't know. Does the clip below explain what you mean?
@sree: What is your understanding?
Alright. I will try to keep this as short and simple as possible. What people call God is an entity of creation. Before any of this, what you see around you, only he/she/it existed. It is no use describing a gender at that moment as it didn’t exist. Now, apparently, he did quite some stuff which leads us to this creation we are now sitting in. And people are part of this creation. He then seems to have explained certain things to people, a long time ago and told them to write it down. Now known as the old testament. It even describes how God actually does/creates things, not known, my personal experience, by certain religious Christians. By speaking. It literally states: God SAID… etc. Etc. He was not announcing his accomplishments you know? It also states something which seems to have been misused and purposely changed by certain individuals. The correct verse is, In the beginning God created the HEAVENS and the earth. Not heaven. With heavens referring to the sky/universe of course. So, skipping some things, we get this old testament which seems to paint the creator as an always angry something, something. That just does not seem very likely for an entity that creates people and gives them free will right? So, possibly, the old testament is filled with lies right? What happens? Now, like I have already stated, the New testament states Jesus and God are the same entity. God himself comes down here and takes on the name Jesus and starts teaching people what he actually meant and of course calls the Jews a bunch of liars. Well, some of them. I think it was actually synagogue of satan, father of lies or something like that correct? Where did he come from? Heaven? That is not what 2 Peter 3:8 says. It states: ‘But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.’ That to me seems like the only way you could actually explain outside of time and space to ancient people who understood very little. Does what I say mean a place where there is no time? No. See it as another reality that does not follow the linear time flow in this reality. Understanding all of that, God/Jesus must have known how it would end. Well, actually, maybe he did it himself? I will explain. People, some at least, call Jesus a prophet right? But, as the books state, God and Jesus are the same entity. And what God says happens. So what Jesus said happened. He was not making a prophecy about betrayal, he made it happen by SPEAKING. Seeing it that way also immediately nullifies the validity of Islam, calling Jesus a prophet, clearly Mohamed did not understand the older writings and created a man made fictional religion. Well, actually, anybody who would think God would actually condone adults marrying children and having women walking around shrouded in mystery… Do I really have to finish the sentence? But anyway. So, God tries to teach people some things walking around named Jesus, also says he will be back, using a different name, says that somewhere in Revelation. He dies and then once again people compile what was written down. Then suddenly there is a heaven and what it comes down to in many places is, you don’t pay/pray, you don’t go to heaven right? Yeah, I love George Carlin. Still my favorite comedian. And I bet it includes more inaccuracies purposely put in there by people to control others. So, you have these churches shoveling in money, as is the vatican, but if you really read the teachings of Jesus, that is in direct contradiction to what living a good life should be about right? How can these organisations represent the Christian religion? They do not. I could go on, but that would be the gist of it I guess.
but if you really read the teachings of Jesus -- M-ManI did. There actually is stuff in there about what you're allowed to do with children and women and it took centuries to undo those practices. Not to mention slaves. Sorry, I didn't read every word, but you start out assuming some sort of entity had to exist for there to be a beginning, which is something that doesn't fit with anything I know. Where did you get that idea?
What I would like from believers is not another restatement of the same old story, but just what “teachings” are the ones you think are the “good life”. I don’t need a book with some story in it, I need practices that I’ve seen work, that include more people in things like breathing clean air and having access to clean water. It y’all got something that does that, please let the rest of us know about it.
A scientist will read dozens of books written by some of the most intelligent people to ever walk the planet, and still believe they have more to learn.
A religious person who won’t fully read one book written by semi illiterate Middle Eastern goat herders who didn’t know where the sun went at night, and believe they know it all ?
@lausten: I didn’t read every word, but you start out assuming some sort of entity had to exist for there to be a beginning, which is something that doesn’t fit with anything I know. Where did you get that idea?
Alright. You said yourself you didn’t read every word. Because I state that certain things Jesus said were modified by people to suit their own needs etc. But to get to your question.
You could know, you should know. No uncontrolled system will ever give you anything useful ever, no matter how long you run it. That is because, simply, to make it into anything useful something/an intelligence needs to stop it, to control it, to set rules when it actually does something of value. Running a computer program to generate something completely random constantly will never produce anything useful as there is no rule to stop it, even if it would, for a single iteration, create something that resembles anything, there is no rule to stop it. It would just discard the result as any randomly generated set before it. Programming a computer to generate random rules already violates the whole principle of randomness. A rule set, being randomly generated, is already a higher task, that can only be recognised by an intelligence. Hopefully I communicated that correctly. The game of life, that some people use as an argument, violates true randomness, as it is already dependent on a rule set. Given by an intelligence. A programmer. It actually supports intelligent design. Not disproves it. As some people have tried to claim.
Have a nice day!
@Blaire: A religious person who won’t fully read one book written by semi illiterate Middle Eastern goat herders who didn’t know where the sun went at night, and believe they know it all
Who is that directed at? At me? You answered me right? Who says I did not read books fully? I never said that. I will leave it at that. If it was directed at me… Hey, people know this one too? “Assumptions are the mother of all f*ck ups.” Thank you very much and have a nice day!
Hopefully I communicated that correctly. The game of life, that some people use as an argument, violates true randomness, as it is already dependent on a rule set. Given by an intelligence. A programmer. -- MMNo, you didn't communicate that correctly. You made a weak argument against evolution. You are claiming the need for an intelligence because you don't understand the alternative.
As for Jesus’ words being modified, if you know that’s true, let’s say that it is, how do you know what the words were originally? You could only know that you have received an imperfect version the words. This is what I would expect from a universe based on simple laws that require time to produce beings like us. I expect lots of imperfections to be passed on.
Again, really, could we just skip all this and tell me what Jesus told us to do and how to live good and just lives?
If Adam and Eve were the first humans and Cain, Abel and Seth their children, who did they reproduce with? So the whole human race was populated by incest ?
And how do you get such diversity in todays human DNA from two people with identical DNA? And how do you get a population from one single Male? Cain murdered his brother Abel. And Eve was made from Adams rib which means it would be a clone. And why would god put a tree in the garden knowing ahead of time that they would eat from it? Why would god punish them so harshly considering the fact that they had no knowledge of good or evil? Why would god give the serpent the ability to speak?
I also find it odd that God preached forgiveness, yet lost his mind over an apple ?
So far the bible is encouraging murder and incest. Isn’t that a sin?
The correct verse is, In the beginning God created the HEAVENS and the earth. Not heaven. With heavens referring to the sky/universe of course.Good point. This is an important clarification.
Where did he come from? Heaven? That is not what 2 Peter 3:8 says. It states: ‘But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.’ That to me seems like the only way you could actually explain outside of time and space to ancient people who understood very little. Does what I say mean a place where there is no time? No. See it as another reality that does not follow the linear time flow in this reality.I like the way you make sense of what you read from the biblical scriptures. This is the intelligent way to do it.
So, you have these churches shoveling in money, as is the vatican, but if you really read the teachings of Jesus, that is in direct contradiction to what living a good life should be about right? How can these organisations represent the Christian religion?Living the good life. What is your take on this? Can you discuss this in the context of Matthew 22:21 below?
But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? 19Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. 20And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? 21They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
So far the bible is encouraging murder and incest. Isn’t that a sin? - blaireThe Bible isn't encouraging anything. It's a book of words. The demon reads evil in their meanings. You get what you wish for.
Fear Not! Demons aren’t anymore real than the boogeyman.
Lucipher, The Devil, Mark of The Beast, Beelzebub and Satan
Many Christians believe the devil was once a beautiful angel named Lucipher who defied God and fell from grace. This assumption is often based from the book of Isaiah in The Bible which says “How art thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer, son of morning. How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nation’s”
Lucifer is not a proper name. It translates to morning star.
In Judaism, Satan is a verb and refers to a difficulty or temptation to overcome.
There are few demon like figures in Hebrew scripture, but the most famous one appears in the book of Job. In that book in adversary or tempter ask God whether the prosperous man Job would continue to praise God after losing everything, God takes up the challenge and strips Job of his wife and family.
When John is imprisoned on the island of Patmos, he mentions The Mark of the Beast. 666 represents Caesar Nero.
@Lausten: No, you didn’t communicate that correctly. You made a weak argument against evolution. You are claiming the need for an intelligence because you don’t understand the alternative.
Now you are also making assumptions. We are not skipping this. I did not give you an argument, I told you exactly as it is. There is a difference. You then go straight to evolution, while I was actually referring to the 3 forces and gravity. Maybe I should have been more clear, sorry about that. They are rules. Evolution, a still unproven idea. No person can currently explain how mutation after mutation would actually change the complete genetic structure of a living being, generating a completely new chromosome count amounting to a new species. It is an idea. Now, you can then say that that indeed also matches what I expressed in my previous post. But, that is not even how God did it. Entire species created as is. Oh, that is not scientific is it? Magic maybe? Or is there something else, beyond what people can actually understand or even study? To analog shortly, for explanation purposes, in a computer game, if characters were actually intelligent, they would conclude their world is made out of, grass, water maybe? That is what it is to them. There is no way for them to measure or find out, they are actually a bunch of polygons. Science is a rule set. But not the rule set that caused creation. That is an idea people are investigating. Not a proven fact. It is very nice you seem to want to BELIEVE it is fact, but it is no more than that. A belief. Have a nice day!
@blaire: If Adam and Eve were the first humans and Cain, Abel and Seth their children, who did they reproduce with? So the whole human race was populated by incest
I do not think there ever were an Adam and Eve. It is a story that does not match the beginning of genesis at all. It states God can speak things into existence. What sense does it make he would suddenly need dust and ribs to create people? That story must of originated from something else. Have a nice day!
@sree:Living the good life. What is your take on this?
I will skip Matthew and give my own take on this. Look at the current situation in the world. Although I have met people literally saying to me: Oh, it’s not so bad, I differ from that position. I call this planet a floating ball of shit. Look at it. The whole structure people have created for themselves. It is a stress inducing labor camp. Based on an economy, based on a monetary system. Most people, and I have met quite a few, spend most of their time in their lives working, in certain cases even a job they do not want to do, so they can keep running from paycheck to paycheck to pay bills all based on a trading system, money, that doesn’t even exist. They are no more than numbers printed on metals, paper and computer screens. This same system seems to bring out the worst in a lot of people. Extreme greed. Also envy, as George Carlin once correctly stated, Oh, he has a bigger truck than me. I need to buy a bigger truck! What is that for type of behavior? Does it serve any positive purpose? Do people really think that? The point is, the economy, the monetary system, are not fixed rulesets of this reality. They are made up by people. They are make believe. And once people stop believing in things like that, they might realise that they could have created paradise for themselves for thousands of years already. But, there are those that do not want that right? Because they believe money gives them power over others right? Only because others believe the money actually means anything at all. And this also goes for possessions. Meaningless material junk. Sure, might be useful from time to time, but binding such worth to objects, things… That does not seem very intelligent to me. I honestly think, getting rid of the entire monetary system, would solve almost all major problems this planet is currently facing. Think about theft, hey, the corrupt stock markets, the poor, homelessness, the underfed etc. Etc. I could go on, but I will leave it at that for now. I do on the other hand have this song here. It is kind of funny. Somebody once said to me on the internet, as referring to God, “I don’t need some outside agency to tell me anything”. So, this track is by The Outside Agency. And some other people created a great video clip for it. It kind of illustrates exactly what I mean with floating ball of shit. I always see it as a warning to people. Imagine if that actually were to happen right? Notice the biblical symbology? Well, anyway. Have a nice day!
Mountain - you said all that without using the word capitalism. How did you do it? Amazing
Mountain Man, your last post about the economic structures we’ve created is pretty much bang on in my opinion. Much of western society has decided that money and the accumulation of it is more important than improving lives (now and for generations to come.)
Those who promote that ideology are burning down the house we all live in to keep themselves warm.
Nice overview of the economic history. You’re right of course. Money and corporations are a fiction. What’s funny is, they know it, but the average person doesn’t. The system depends on us accepting the fiction, what the average person doesn’t understand is, it doesn’t depend on them believing the fiction. It can be used like a tool. It’s jarring when you first understand it, but it’s not a revelation, it’s just something to know.
Even if you know it’s a fiction, it can still be very complicated to fight against the legal protections that rich people have made for themselves. A few examples are given here. Piercing the corporate veil - Wikipedia
So, when you say, “once people stop believing in things like that, they might realize that they could have created paradise for themselves for thousands of years already.” I don’t think that’s true. There are a ton of other things to deal with when creating paradise, like, the next thing you point out, “those that do not want that”. No matter what realizations we have or what law we change, there are a significant number of people alive today who just want short term satisfaction of their physical desires and also have the power to harm whoever they want in the pursuit of that.
Sadly, I don’t think our conversations will amount to much, because you say things like “I told you exactly as it is”. You don’t know exactly how it is. I asked you about that, about how you know what Jesus said or meant when you’ve already admitted that the Bible is imperfect and his words have been distorted. Then you go in to standard responses to science, responses that are well documented and discussed ad infinitum. I would go find a link for you to study but I don’t think it would be worth my time. Prove me wrong.
On the video; that’s a pretty convincing set of violent images there, but I don’t accept the “humanity has failed” narrative. If true, then so have a ton of other species, the extinct ones. So, we’re just part of nature. This is where science and religion agree, but just have completely different language for it. Science says we evolved to be the imperfect creatures we are, Christianity says we live in a broken world. Other religions have variations on that. The responses to this end up being similar, feed the hungry, house the homeless, take care of the children, explore creation and learn. But we fight about the motivation.
@Lausten: Sadly, I don’t think our conversations will amount to much, because you say things like “I told you exactly as it is”. You don’t know exactly how it is.
Maybe I do. And with that statement I was referring to mathematics, true randomness, and how these concepts actually work. You are not supposed to blow your own horn. It is very rude. But I am going to do it anyway. I was 7 when I started programming on our C64. I am not saying there are no other people who do such things, but as a reference, you know what other kids in the neighborhood were doing at that age? Cutting the roof off of their matchbox cars with nail clippers to make a convertible. Cutting the buttons of their shirt because someone left a pair of scissors on the table. My understanding of logic, loops etc. is not basic. I made it into IT without any papers. Autodidact. While working in that sector, I spent most of my free time studying other subjects. That means, for about 15 years, I spent 40 to 60 hours a week studying all kinds of subjects. Besides the 60 hours I invested in my job every week. I know quite a bit. Maybe you will now also understand that.
On a lighter note. I understand your explanation of why it is hard to battle the current enforced system. I am very aware of the issues. The only way to win such a conflict is to, pardon my french, wipe your ass with the system. I have personally done it in the past. It was a very unpleasant experience, but I would do it again and again without hesitation. The issue in the past has been that I personally spoke to people about the issues at hand. They all agreed with me. But, when I went for the confrontation, every single one of them suddenly had nothing to say. That is fear. I have no fear. Apparently many people on this planet suffer from it no? People should really ask themselves: “Fear? Of what?” The consequences? The unknown? I would rather die fighting for what is right, instead of living a life filled with fear.
I guess that got kind of off topic. Well, if you have no further interest to discuss with me, fair enough. Have a nice day!
I didn’t say I had no further interest. I said don’t think it will amount to much. You are all over the map. You are using tired old tropes but claiming you have some special knowledge that somehow adds weight to them. You are avoiding my questions which is making this NOT a conversation at all. I can do this all day, as long as I have a glimmer of hope that you’ll get to a point.
You could be the smartest person the planet with regards to randomness, but you would still be applying it wrong to how the universe formed or what god is or whatever the heck else you are trying to say here. I’m not attacking your intelligence, from what you’ve said, you’ve got me beat there. But there are no mathematical proofs for god so I can’t tell what you’re trying to say.
I would rather die fighting for what is right, instead of living a life filled with fear. -- mountainmanIf I knew for sure what you were talking about, I’d probably agree with you. The USA has given me pretty much everything I could have hoped for from a life so in some ways I have no “dog in this fight”, but I do care, and I want to leave the place better than I found it.