TimB: Men of another era created the Judeo/Christian God and that God’s morality.
Men can also come up with moral standards without necessarily inventing a supreme being to do so.
Religiosity is thus not needed for us to have a humanistic morality. In fact, it could be a hindrance.
Sherlock: The fact is that what we call “morality” is nothing more than modes of behavior that have arisen through natural selection. All modes arose through natural selection including the modes you like to call “good” and the modes you like to call “evil” they are the result of natural selection and natural laws.
Isn’t that what you must agree to if you’re an atheist?
TimB: Sherlock, you are fundamentally incorrect in some ways. You attribute morality to natural selection which is ultimately a truism, since everything about organisms is attributable to natural selection on the primary level. However, some things we learn AFTER we are imbued with life. Culture is predominately one of those. Morality is also predominantly a factor of learning, tho I don’t think completely so.
At birth (and/or conception) we don’t hold the belief systems that we will learn and adopt later in our lives. Depending on our experiences, that might be very different (i.e., if there were simultaneous clones of me at conception, and all were born successfully, but each was raised in quite different environments then at a later point in our lives, we would have different moral values from each other.) And this occurred according to natural laws, since everything occurs due to natural laws. (Just don’t leave out an entire set of natural laws like those that involve learning.)
I suppose you are getting at the determined nature of the universe. Whatever we do, occurs by virtue of natural laws. Yes.
Our values/morals are determined according to natural laws. If we act in discordance with our values/morals, we are guilty. (In compatibilist free will, one is not guilty if they act in accordance with their belief systems. Also if they are forced to act in discordance with their value system, they would not be guilty.)
That is one level of guilt v. innocence. Another is the legal/& social system in which we live. If we break a law/more, even if doing so was consistent with our own values/morals/beliefs - we are considered by society (if it is proven) to be guilty.
We humans create laws, morals, values, mores, ethical considerations, guidelines, etc. We created the G/gods and religions that developed their particular rules, commandments, morals, etc. All of that morality stuff came from the mind of humans. ALL OF IT.
Did Mark Twain say something like, “Humans are the only creature that knows right and wrong, and chooses to do wrong anyway.”?
Joseph Campbell has done extensive study of mythology around the world and found several “common denominators” in all mythological stories of with a central hero. He wrote a book “The hero with a thousand faces” which analyzes the common themes in almost all mythological stories.
This video is a summary and explanation of the book.
“God is a metaphor for a mystery that absolutely transcends all human categories of thought, even the categories of being and non-being. Those are categories of thought. I mean it’s as simple as that. So it depends on how much you want to think about it. Whether it’s doing you any good. Whether it is putting you in touch with the mystery that’s the ground of your own being. If it isn’t, well, it’s a lie. So half the people in the world are religious people who think that their metaphors are facts. Those are what we call theists. The other half are people who know that the metaphors are not facts. And so, they’re lies. Those are the atheists.”
Campbell was quite right in pointing out that both theists and atheists are engaged in battle over the metaphor of God. What about the mystery of God? Campbell did acknowledge that the mystery transcends human thought. Nothing scientific about that because he had neither evidence nor proof but just a hunch.
Religion, therefore, is not a matter of faith, the stuff of theists and their atheistic antagonists. It is the yearning of the human spirit to find the truth about life. And if Campbell was right about the mystery’s nature that transcends thought, then there is no way to figure it out with our thinking caps. So, how did Campbell know that the mystery is beyond human consciousness? The very idea is alien to the western mind.
So, how did Campbell know that the mystery is beyond human consciousness?
I find it hard to believe that you believe this is a coherent question. Mystery means we don't know. I don't think Campbell ever said "beyond human consciousness" and I don't know what you (or if he said it, he) mean by that. Mystery is what is currently "beyond" our knowledge. We live with mystery. It's not alien to the western mind. We went to the moon to find out what is there. Mystery motivates people.
Also, a metaphor is not a lie. But I don’t believe you think that either, so I’m not going to discuss it with you.
@Blaire: ‘If this should happen, then the only real problem this God would have would be is to explain why he waited two thousand years to reveal himself! And then he would have saved millions from death and misery.’
So, lets say God does reveal himself. Why then would he have to explain anything really? Most of that death and misery was caused by people not following the guidelines outlined in biblical texts, wasn’t it? In other words, peoples own actions. Doesn’t that show, even to this day, that people themselves are at fault/inadequate? Or do you think that, by messing up for about 2000 years people have finally learned something? Would be nice right? Have a nice day!
What logic and rationality of a God creating a huge universe with billions of stars and planets and then making it habitable on only one tiny planet in one Galaxy? And then this planet was created in such a way that it is always trying to kill us with tectonic plates that shift causing earthquakes and tsunami’s, volcanoes that erupt and bury people with ash or poison the air and weather events that cause hurricanes and tornado’s, not to mention the occasional meteriorite that hits the planet causing large extinction events every few million years.
And then your so called God filled the planet with nature that is also trying to kill us, such as wild animals, insects, parasites, germs and viruses.
I just love it when Christians talk about how they know there is a God when they see the beauty of nature such as flowers and trees as they look out their window from the safety of their house, which they live in to protect them from the nature that would most likely kill them if they actually had to live in nature without the protection of their house!
What negates the possibility of Intelligent Design? A possibility needs to be demonstrated. You do Not get to claim something is possible because it cannot be proved impossible.
You do Not get to imagine possibilities into existence.
Welcome @mountainman. From this post, it’s hard to tell where you’re coming from. It could have gone pro-Christian or anti-all-religion. Anyway, looking forward to hearing more from you.
Your little rant there did not exactly answer my question. Or was it rhetorical from my end? No matter.
I will give you an answer to ‘what logic’ ok? Lets take the following, and because I am replying to you, hypothesis and state God exists. Now, in this hypothesis he creates people that resemble(created in his image) his chosen image. But, that might be on a more inward level as well right? Imagination, humor, you name it right? Why would he create something and interact with it having absolutely no connection with it right? So, have you ever read books people made? How about watched a movie, fiction, sc-fi, fantasy maybe? Do people create entire fictional universes, filled with all kinds of dangers etc.? Do people love to read and watch these creations? You see the logic in that then?
Secondly, as my name suggests, I live up in the mountains. On a farm. With animals. And technically animals that could kill me around. And sometimes walk very dangerous routes where I could fall and die. Just saying.
The last part of what you wrote… Euhm, did I say anything about that actually? Oh, maybe implied. Well, I bet there is something to this reality that shows it was designed. Maybe people have overlooked it. You can not seriously tell me you are so sure that people have things figured out so well correct? A lot of unknowns no? Well, anyway. Have a nice day!
Welcome @mountainman. From this post, it’s hard to tell where you’re coming from. It could have gone pro-Christian or anti-all-religion. - Lausten
Why can't you take his post at face value based on your own reading of it?
This is my reading of it. He said that the misery of existence is people’s fault because they can’t live in harmony. They are programmed to be pro this or anti that till they mess everything and everyone up for good.
Secondly, as my name suggests, I live up in the mountains. On a farm. With animals. And technically animals that could kill me around. And sometimes walk very dangerous routes where I could fall and die. Just saying. - @mountainman
People who live in the mountains on a farm with animals are not predisposed to write reflectively as you do. They neither have the time nor inclination. I have a place to go in the West Virginian mountains; no animals except for grazing cattle of a hillbilly neighbor who takes care of my property.
So, tell me, are you a real gun-toting mountain man or a wannabe like me armed with a laptop in the mountains?
Well, I have been up in the mountains for about 2.5 years now. We don’t have guns here, kind of difficult. I’m in the Spanish mountains. Technically, if we need one, we can borrow one from someone with a hunting license. Managed to catch a deer without one. Endurance hunting right? It somehow got into the 65 acre fenced in area.
But indeed, before my current adventure I worked as a computer programmer and scripter for 15 years as a contractor for different companies.
I have heard of Emerson, but have not read any of it.
The way I understand the biblical texts seems to be in conflict with certain people who I have spoken to in the past. People who do not seem to understand that the NT does really say Jesus and God are the same entity. And he would be back. People claiming God is an unknowable, always invisible something right? That is not what I have understood, but anyway.
Sierra Morena? You must be near Cordoba. I like Spanish olive oil and have been cooking with it lately. Spanish wines are tasty. The Arab influence has an exciting impact on Spanish cuisine. If you love life, like me, you are in a good place, my friend.
The way I understand the biblical texts seems to be in conflict with certain people who I have spoken to in the past. People who do not seem to understand that the NT does really say Jesus and God are the same entity. And he would be back.
What is your take on the Bible with regard to Jesus? Emerson proclaimed that Jesus was a great man but was not God. Emerson and Thoreau were part of the movement of transcendentalism: God’s presence in Nature. They were inspired by the beauty of the American landscape.
People claiming God is an unknowable, always invisible something right? That is not what I have understood, but anyway.
