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General Discussion
81

@loveofgod

When we understand that everything that happens is ultimately an act of God, then it is pointless to resist evil lest we oppose God himself, but rather makes more sense to work according to his law.

Let’s stop you right there. What sort of deity would be so evil to allow other humans to kill one man because he’s black? Let’s not forget the origin of Jesus, if he ever existed. Ignoring that some things about Jesus in the Bible are embellished, just the location of the story is in Egypt and Israel. Now are black people and people of colour suppose to be prosecuted and killed on the basis of their skin colour, just because Jesus was a person of colour? Now I realize that the Gnostics believe that “we are all Christ crucified”, but that such treatment is not very humane of anyone and if that is true of your deity, I truly do not wish to worship such a horrid god that would allow white men to kill black people because it’s all “part of his grand plan” or something dumb like that.

That said, I am not for violence in anyway shape or form, but with police acting as some do, we need to peacefully protest such things. Even the Episcopal Church believes in peaceful protest and were horrified that the dotard would shove them off their own property, violating the 3rd amendment of the Constitution. What he did to the Episcopal Church was illegal, especially when the protesters were peaceful and the Episcopal Church did nothing to him. He is not a king, even though he wants to be. He is not a dictator, even if he wants to be.

That said, if you want to go down that route, I will say, before I “lost faith in faith” as Dan Barker said and wrote, I was an Episcopalian and I could go do this road with you, but the bottomline is, IMHO, none of this is “God will”, even if I was still an Episcopalian. I never worshipped such a deity.

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Holy Schindler. Care to show your data on that? Btw, if it is true, it seems to me that those must be some pretty smart and good at what they do, Jews, to all get those jobs.
You had better believe it. Where do you live? Arkansas? I grew up and lived among Jews in New York. They are not only good at what they do; they are very competitive and highly driven. Me too, and I am certain that I am that way because of them. If I had grown up in the hills of Kentucky, you would have an easy time making a fool of me.
Additionally, the Federal Judicial system has been flooded by an unrelenting FLOOD of T rump appointees. That seems sort of opposite of what you claimed about the Jews having taken over and screwed up our entire legal system.
There is nothing ominous about Jews dominating the US judicial system. In America, those who are good at what they do must be allowed to do what they are good at. This is the only way our country can excel and be great as a nation. It’s the best among us who make America – and the world - great.
Dear goodness, doesn’t just that statement itself, tip you off, to the blatantly obvious > which is that you are passing on a Racist Trope – the kind of one that might originate with Fascists – don’tcha think?
You need to open up your mind, buddy. You are reading bs into what I said. I not only lived among Jews in New York, they were also a part of my life. Our family doctor was a Jew. He delivered me, at home, when I was born. He remained our family doctor till he died. My father’s lawyer and accountant are Jewish. I can’t remember a single family dinner, when close friends were invited, that was Jew-free. I attended more bar mitzvahs than I can remember. Look at Donald Trump. He even has Jews within his family. If you want to make it in New York, you need a Jew watching your back. Trump’s impeachment defense by Dershowitz was brilliant: "the President cannot be impeached for being dishonest because dishonesty is a sin and not a crime." No atheist white lawyer can come up with that.
83

Speaking of racial stereotypes. How about those Asians being so good at math? And blacks being so good at dancing? And white cops being so good at getting away with killing African Americans?

84
The only thing you are slightly correct about is that law has defended police brutality for most of history, US and otherwise.
You made an observation that needs clarification. Cite me the post that recorded me saying that the "law has defended police brutality"?
85

@citizenschalengev3

But “God” is a product of your mindscape.
What would be useful is to understand what we each mean by the terms God and physics, and their proper meaning.

Perhaps to start I shall put forward a phrasing that neither of might ultimately agree with, but is an analogy. In the simulated game of reality we play, there are rules. In my view, God is the creator and arbiter of the game, the DM if you will, and his rule book exists within the game itself, just as a game may contain objects that describe how the rules work. In my view moral laws operate in harmony with natural laws and have a real impact on the outcome of the game. In your view, the game is entirely coded according to a physical model, and what determines outcomes are game physics.

Further, whatever the actual rules of the game are, they apply to us equally, no matter to what extent each of us is right about out positions.

“God” and your relationship with her (or him, if you swing that way) is the most personal relationship humans experience – your personal perception of god is just that, your personal perception based on your unique life experiences and books you read.
That is a religious idea about God, which doesn't seem to apply to the God I know.
Everything that happens is ultimately an act of Physical Reality.
Why physical reality? It seems to me, you are simply making physics your God. I think when people do physics they ignore the possibility that moral laws operate so these laws are not detected by such experiments. However there are physical theories such as Quantum Mechanics which only exist as an attempt to explain the godhead.

The bible does mention this god of yours, and describes it as a strange god – the god of forces.

Jesus has to do with our human situation and it deals with the struggles of our Human Mindscapes. Jesus has nothing to do with the Creation of this Universe, or Planet, or the Evolutionary processes that created life on Earth and the human species.
The name of Jesus is written numerically into many aspects of nature and creation. I do not see how this came about except by design.
Too many are too wrapped up in their Egos when they read the Book of Job. The real lesson is that God is beyond human understanding, but our Ego’s make most blind to that and instead turn it into a lesson in Christian idolatry more than any increased appreciation for the billions of years old God of Time and Light, Life and Love.
Is this "god of time" to you actually physics?
The Physical level, you think Physical Reality is doing all this simply for human population control? Ever imagine the story is much bigger and older than that?
I suppose there are different ways of looking at the same thing. There are the intentions of men, and the purposes of God and these are different. I do acknowledge that a much larger picture is being played out and it is a very beautiful one. And where we are in the story can be found in Revelation.
86

It’s a story all right. A story conceived of and perpetuated by humans, including yourself. Just a story. Granted, a story is a lot. But a story of a supernatural entity actually exists. Whereas a supernatural entity, itself, only exists as a concept, a part of the story.

87
But it is not a “premise” of the case.
You don't know that and, at this point in time, neither do I as a matter of fact. But the criminal charges do seem to be motivated by a need to appeal to the cries of the crowds in the streets.

It will be interesting to see how Keith Allison makes his case against two rookie cops (one black and one white) who responded to a 911 call and they had to radio for backup from one white and one Hmong cop to assist in the killing of a black man who was a lot bigger than at least three of the four cops.

88
You don’t know that and, at this point in time, neither do I as a matter of fact.
I do know that because I have read about the case histories. People have tried to make cases based on patterns of racial discrimination and failed within the legal system, and our system has responded by making laws that make it even harder to make that case. By "case" I'm referring to the legal system that is rigged in favor of some and against others. The only place that the case is successful is in the eyes and ears of people who care about human beings. Try looking up polls on how people view policing. Try to find data that refutes that perception. But you don't do that, you never do that, you just repeat racist remarks.
But the criminal charges do seem to be motivated by a need to appeal to the cries of the crowds in the streets.
The appeal is to human rights. Like we appeal to North Korea or China, like we fought wars to defend, like you see good guys in movies like The Hunger Games. But I guess you're more of an Atlas Shrugged kind of guy.
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@mriana

Let’s stop you right there. What sort of deity would be so evil to allow other humans to kill one man because he’s black?
God allows people to worship deities like this, because he has allowed mankind to experience this in accordance with man's choice. He is longsuffering in tolerating such abuses, but also bring and evil once people tire from it and appeal to him. But he is also merciful to those who seek mercy.
Let’s not forget the origin of Jesus, if he ever existed. Ignoring that some things about Jesus in the Bible are embellished, just the location of the story is in Egypt and Israel. Now are black people and people of colour suppose to be prosecuted and killed on the basis of their skin colour, just because Jesus was a person of colour? Now I realize that the Gnostics believe that “we are all Christ crucified”, but that such treatment is not very humane of anyone and if that is true of your deity, I truly do not wish to worship such a horrid god that would allow white men to kill black people because it’s all “part of his grand plan” or something dumb like that.
If God did not allow evil, then none of us would exist. I believe what we suffer is a consequence of our thoughts and actions.

However, if we seek the goodness of God, his rules are pretty clear:

Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. Leviticus 19:18

Leviticus 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.

19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.


This commandment is central to the law, and foundational to the teaching of Jesus.

I think God is very good and longsuffering in allowing us to experience our folly without immediately killing every person who has a selfish thought. Even allowing us to enjoy what life is like without God. You might say, why does god give us evil thoughts? I would say because he gives us what we desire.

But of course there are limits to what God tolerates, just as there are limits to what we tolerate when we judge. And you will find Jesus teaches is that we receive the same measure as judgement as the one we ourselves dish out.

One statistic that strikes me is the number of children that are killed by abortion every day (~150,000) roughly matches the number of deaths from other causes. That’s six million babies every 40 years. Maybe that is karma and is entirely just. And suddenly we become concerned about one seeming unjust death. It is good that this is being used to examine our morality and religious ideas. But there are also other things going on in the world now that will devastate the lives of many, many black people such as the plagues of locusts sweeping through Africa, while most of the world has got caught up in some medical drama. It would be good to pay attention to those too.

That said, I am not for violence in anyway shape or form, but with police acting as some do, we need to peacefully protest such things. Even the Episcopal Church believes in peaceful protest and were horrified that the dotard would shove them off their own property, violating the 3rd amendment of the Constitution. What he did to the Episcopal Church was illegal, especially when the protesters were peaceful and the Episcopal Church did nothing to him. He is not a king, even though he wants to be. He is not a dictator, even if he wants to be.

That said, if you want to go down that route, I will say, before I “lost faith in faith” as Dan Barker said and wrote, I was an Episcopalian and I could go do this road with you, but the bottomline is, IMHO, none of this is “God will”, even if I was still an Episcopalian. I never worshipped such a deity.


Well the church really needs to examine its own evil that has kept people from the word of God. And we also need to each of us examine our own evil and really seek out a better way of living, and not leave it up to the police, politicians or whoever else we would have reign over us.

The constitution was doomed to fail from the outset. Putting anything between us and God’s law will ultimately fail.

90
Cite me the post that recorded me saying that the “law has defended police brutality”? --Sree
I already quoted you when I responded to whatever it is you are mad about now. Here, I'll explain words to you.

I didn’t say you said that, I was correcting what you said. You said “systemic black genocide” and that lawyers will tear Ellison apart. Then of course you turn around and say I can’t comment on what the premise of the case might be, but, never mind. I’m saying laws have been written to defend police brutality. I’m saying, that even though you don’t believe the case against “genocide” is valid, there is some truth to it. It is what is being debated right now. Laws were slowly put in place and we have returned to the world of debtor’s prisons and life sentences for minor crimes and our taxes paying to fund needless military equipment that will be used against our own children. It’s going to take cases like this one to start undoing that.

 

 

91

I hate it when it does that

92
If God did not allow evil, then none of us would exist. I believe what we suffer is a consequence of our thoughts and actions.

However, if we seek the goodness of God, his rules are pretty clear: – David


I don’t read most of your posts David because everything you say can be found in a debate by the best theologians out there, and they lose on the grounds of logic and common sense, every time. You’ve got two things here.

  1. the free will argument. I actually agree with you, “I believe what we suffer is a consequence of our thoughts and actions.” But you think there is some solution to this other than us being nice to each other. I realize everyone won’t be nice all the time, so I guess the solution is to try. You solve it with:

  2. that the laws are clear, if you just read some scripture and pray. Except it’s mostly people fighting over scripture that has been behind wars throughout history. It was secular law that took powers away from the religious leaders. If the rules were clear, there would be very similar language, in all the major Constitutions and legal precedents around the world, directly relating back to whatever scripture you prefer. Do you have something like that you can show us?

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@loveofgod

God allows people to worship deities like this, because he has allowed mankind to experience this in accordance with man’s choice. He is longsuffering in tolerating such abuses, but also bring and evil once people tire from it and appeal to him. But he is also merciful to those who seek mercy.

Nice human concept you have there. <sarcasm> All of it, right down to the Bible quote, which was written by humans. Those aren’t any human created deity’s laws or rules. They were created by humans and of it is a bunch of human concepts about a deity, which people cherry pick to death.

Well the church really needs to examine its own evil that has kept people from the word of God.

OMFG! ROFLMAO! Says you. Everything you’re saying is your concept of a deity that not everyone shares and you just attempted to force your concept on a whole church, which would tell you the bible is just a collect of stories with teachings to live by and on top of it all, while you cherry pick certain verses out of the Bible, so do they. Everyone cherry picks the Bible to serve their own needs and purposes, even the Church. You can take any religious text or none at all, and live a good life or you can take a religious text and use it to evil and harm to others, which it seems that is what you choose to do- support violent acts of the dotard and others. That’s not a peaceful way to live and quite frankly, the Episcopal Church is a peaceful church, allowing gay, even gay married priests, married female priests with children, and married priests in general. Personally, if I was still a believer, I’d still be attending the Episcopal Church. My favourite bishop, to this day, is retired bishop John Shelby Sponge who is more humanistic than you are. They had little to do with “keeping me from the word of God” as you put it. You have no comprehension of anything, not even an education in many areas, which contribute to one’s atheism. It doesn’t matter what church a former Xian went too and then lost faith. I know some Ex-Christians who went to the most Fundamngelical churches and became atheists, so you don’t know anything about humanism or atheism. One last thing, that you obviously don’t know, there are some very humanistic Xians and humanism is not just a bunch of atheist.

94

@loveofgod Oh and btw, your god kills more unborn fetuses than women via spontaneous abortion, even condoned it in the Bible. God never once forbid it, but we can go down that road too, if you want. You’re unbelievable on so many levels.

95
When we understand that everything that happens is ultimately an act of God, then it is pointless to resist evil lest we oppose God himself, but rather makes more sense to work according to his law.
The way you say it has elicited @mriana’s response, which is not unreasonable. The way I see it, “act of God” is not the same as an act of volition for which the actor exists and is held accountable. A hurricane or earthquake has no actor initiating it and we call it an “act of God”. This Covid 19 pandemic is an “act of God”.
In practice, though I have some training in martial arts, when the chips are down, I am generally completely passive. It works for me. Adding violence doesn’t help, God is able to defend me.
God won’t defend you if you stray off “the path” and go about looking for trouble. Passive children are killed everyday by drive-by shootings in the inner cities of America.
However Jesus also I believe is talking about bringing a second reason to someone who rejects your first offered reason. Although I would like to have more clarity on this.
What do you mean by this? Can you put it in context? Lausten asked how George Floyd could have turned the other cheek. What second reason could he have brought to the cops to save himself and us from all this mess?
But see also Deuteronomy 18 and John 18 to study this.
This is the Torah, an anti-thesis of Jesus’ teaching.
The cloak I take as figurative of a rich man’s cloak, and in the same way Job gave up vain religion and declaring his own righteousness before God, Jesus seems to be saying that if someone would take away our spiritual covering for sin (e.g. blood of Jesus; Paul assurance of faith in Jesus’ resurrection) and admit we are naked as described in Revelation 3.
You are generating a lot of smoke here and it’s robbing us of clarity. It would be helpful if we isolate Jesus’ teaching from Judaism. Whenever I am stumped by Jesus’ words and the chips are down, I go completely passive the way you would in martial arts. Flailing around looking for a way out could make matters worse.
But to get back to the general sense, if we stand spiritually on firm ground, our enemies are there to be loved; there is no need to defend ourselves because God himself has brought this situation about.
Loving enemies is the deal breaker because it makes no sense. Only a nutjob, like the woman and the snake, does that. If we can’t make sense of Jesus’ teaching, it’s best to go completely passive and try again. Fudging it is what’s giving Jesus a bad rap.
96

@lauston

2) that the laws are clear, if you just read some scripture and pray. Except it’s mostly people fighting over scripture that has been behind wars throughout history. It was secular law that took powers away from the religious leaders. If the rules were clear, there would be very similar language, in all the major Constitutions and legal precedents around the world, directly relating back to whatever scripture you prefer. Do you have something like that you can show us?
Well, maybe I see history differently from you. Secular society is full of religious laws and ideas. The concept of democracy goes back to Rabbinical Judaism "Incline to the majority". And these extra laws and legality doesn't work. Secular society is actually secretly a religious one. Why do you think in a secular world, do all the world leaders suddenly want to congregate at the death of a pope? Evolution is the pope's religion too and De Chardin was largely responsible for its doctrine. The church refers this as its temporal power and the jesuits are main commanders in that temporal wing. It was the jesuits who brought in education, that has shaped and formed the culture. They are the ones that brought in all these laws and constitutions, replacing the word of God. And we have gone along with it.

You are right the rules are not clear to everyone, though it only takes a child-like understanding to appreciate the fragments I quoted. If we understood clearly we would not participate in these secular structures that deny God and do not work well.

 

97

@mriana

Nice human concept you have there. <sarcasm> All of it, right down to the Bible quote, which was written by humans. Those aren’t any human created deity’s laws or rules. They were created by humans and of it is a bunch of human concepts about a deity, which people cherry pick to death.
I understand that you think I have cherry pick, but to claim I do in this case without backing it up by anything is unhelpful. Love thy neighbour is very important in Jesus' teaching, if you think this is cherry picking, explain how.
Matthew22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


If I cherry pick, find a verse that has Jesus saying the opposite.

OMFG! ROFLMAO! Says you. Everything you’re saying is your concept of a deity that not everyone shares and you just attempted to force your concept on a whole church, which would tell you the bible is just a collect of stories with teachings to live by and on top of it all, while you cherry pick certain verses out of the Bible, so do they. Everyone cherry picks the Bible to serve their own needs and purposes, even the Church.
Maybe you are right we all do that to an extent, but that does not mean that Jesus did not have a very precise message and meaning that we can genuinely approach rather than layering our own meaning onto it. And simply because most people are wrong, doesn't mean I am wrong. And if I am wrong it would be helpful to be more precise in your statements rather than making argument that seems to boil down to: most religious arguments are wrong therefore your argument is wrong.
You can take any religious text or none at all, and live a good life or you can take a religious text and use it to evil and harm to others, which it seems that is what you choose to do- support violent acts of the dotard and others.
Do you believe in a justice system, or only justice systems that do not involve God? Your argument seems to be like saying the death penalty supports murder, therefore we should murder. And actually this comes out in the teaching of Jesus:
Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.


People somehow hear this law as a law of individual retaliation, when it is in fact an instruction to judges. But the system of judges was only a temporary arrangement to teach the Israelites about the law of God after they rejected his direct provenance. The justice system also teaches about mercy which also demands consideration.

That’s not a peaceful way to live and quite frankly, the Episcopal Church is a peaceful church, allowing gay, even gay married priests, married female priests with children, and married priests in general. Personally, if I was still a believer, I’d still be attending the Episcopal Church. My favourite bishop, to this day, is retired bishop John Shelby Sponge who is more humanistic than you are. They had little to do with “keeping me from the word of God” as you put it.
Whether they have or not, it seems to have worked. A church that preaches an impotent deity and that God's law is a bunch of stories, that encourages fornication that spreads diseases a lot worse than the common cold. ... I'm sorry dear, I won't be home tonight I just feel the need, to stick my private parts up someone's shitter... very loving. What happened to staying 2m distant to stop the spread of disease? The irony.

But you are right it is your choice, just as it is your choice whether to kill your own children or not. But do not be surprised if there are consequences.

You have no comprehension of anything, not even an education in many areas, which contribute to one’s atheism. It doesn’t matter what church a former Xian went too and then lost faith. I know some Ex-Christians who went to the most Fundamngelical churches and became atheists, so you don’t know anything about humanism or atheism. One last thing, that you obviously don’t know, there are some very humanistic Xians and humanism is not just a bunch of atheist.
The funny thing is that do demand justice against the cop, it just seems peculiar to you that such a justice system is already in place and works via an omnipotent creator.

The problem with humanism is when you redefine what it is to be good, and have disregard for the consequences.

98
@loveofgod Oh and btw, your god kills more unborn fetuses than women via spontaneous abortion, even condoned it in the Bible. God never once forbid it, but we can go down that road too, if you want. You’re unbelievable on so many levels.
Leviticus 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
99

@loveofgod I’m going to make this easier, instead of typing all the verses out for you: Again, as I said before, the Bible says absolutely nothing about abortion and God is the biggest abortionist by using spontaneous abortion. However, if you want me to type all the verses, but it is immense and spontaneous abortions occur more often than medical abortions, meaning your god kills more babies than any women and abortion doctors do.

I will quote this:

Does God Kill Babies?

“Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.” Psalm 137:9

One more link for you: Freedom From Religion Foundation - Outreach & Events

100
Well, maybe I see history differently from you. -- David
Yep.

There are words from David Hume that are almost directly in the US Constitution. You can’t do that with the Bible or with Popes.

DeChardin’s work was banned by Popes. He gave it to a friend who published it posthumously. Otherwise, it would be locked away in a Vatican vault.

Why would laws be “secretly” religious? Let’s say your freewill argument is valid. Why would God or religious leader keep secrets? If I have free will, then I need to use my reasoning powers to determine what’s true. So, just give some facts oh Lord.