If I cherry pick, find a verse that has Jesus saying the opposite. -- DavidFirst, I'd need to know what this means. Christians and many others have debated what "neighbor" meant since these words were written. It could mean only those near you, those who have professed their acceptance of Christ for instance. Kind of like you are treating us here. "Gotcha" verses aren't my thing, so no, I'm not going to quote your Bible to disprove your Bible, because that would be playing your game of using scripture to prove scripture.
“Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.” Psalm 137:9What an apt piece of prophecy. Indeed you are happy, and indeed you consent to it. Children are God's gift to you, yet ye despise his goodness.
It seems the only parts of the bible you have cherry picked are the most violent parts.
@loveofgod While yes, Jesus didn’t come to change the law, you will find he also said the opposite, which is often found in the O.T. Love thy neighbour and kill your neighbour, cutting out unborn babies from mother’s wombs (paraphrased).
Matthew 10:34 Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
After that he is attributed with saying he will turn everyone against each other- mother against daughter, father against son, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law etc etc.
I do not believe in either a religious system or anything else. I rely on and support a secular judicial system, which is what this country was founded on. It was not founded on any religion and the founding fathers wanted a secular government. After all, many of them were fleeing religious persecution and were seeking religious freedom. One cannot have religious freedom without freedom from religion.
I didn’t just learn that the Bible was a bunch of stories in which to teach a form of morality to a group of people. I also learned by taking mythology, psychology, sociology, philosophy and other courses in college that the Bible is nothing more than another book of mythological stories written by humans. In the process of human evolution, our thinking evolved from an anthropomorphic belief system, where we make the sun or even cats gods, giving them human qualities even, to a more metaphysical belief system that there is an all seeing eye in the sky. Thing is, this all seeing eye is the same thing as the Egyptian all seeing eye, so religion hasn’t change that much from the ancient texts concerning dying and rising god stories, as well as miraculous birth stories and flood stories. We see such stories in all cultures- Babylonia, Syria, India, ancient China, etc The Bible is a perpetuation of all these past human cultural ideologies. As I said before and as Robert M. Price has said, “If there ever was a historical Jesus, wasn’t anything like what was portrayed in the Bible”. Just like Geo Washington never chopped down a cherry tree. There were many Jesuses and many people for that matter hung on a stauros. There has also been many dying and rising deities and all these stories are used to explain something or pass on to other humans in the tribe. That’s basically what these stories are for and there is not fact or history to them.
The problem with humanism is when you redefine what it is to be good, and have disregard for the consequences.
This shows you know nothing about humanism. Even Dr. Spock talked about Natural Consequences and that has nothing to do with a deity.
@loveofgod "In the simulated game of reality we play, there are rules."You can stop right there. Our lives are not a simulation - this is the real deal, and we have one run through.
Physical Reality has it rules, and they are the same for everyone.In my viewWithin your Mindscape, God is the creator and arbiter of the game, ...
Way more JUST than some deity that demands nonstop praise and adulation to keep for burning your ass for eternity.
@loveofgod In your view, the game is entirely coded according to a physical model, and what determines outcomes are game physics.Nope, not at all. You misunderstand. Humans are a dynamic part of "the game".
Spend a bit more time trying to understand what our individual and collective “Mindscapes” are about how much they influence “Physical Reality”. I’m just saying that Physical Reality is the ultimate arbiter and this “God” you speak of is a creation of the Human mind and Spirit and that “God” is as malleable and transient as Governments and politics.
The name of Jesus is written numerically into many aspects of nature and creation.Hmmm, nature is infused with mathematics - Jesus is five letters and you can convert those into any numerical value you want, to fit anything you imagined. But I've yet to see anyone write a serious natural descriptive equation with J-E-S-U-S in it.
But of course there are limits to what God tolerates,If that were the case I think God would have stepped in before we managed to take it to the point that our complete self-destruction is inevitable. Yes we've taken Earth system so far out of kilter that the inevitable cascading consequence have been set into motion with too much momentum and damage to hope to bring it back. It may take a couple generations to fully unfold, but it's certainly the direction we are going, the only real question remaining, is the speed of our destruction of our biosphere that supplies all of our life support systems.
Why physical reality? It seems to me, you are simply making physics your God.There is much much more to physical reality than Physics - do you know about the Creation story of billions of years worth of Evolution? - That's Physical Reality! Earth's Evolutionary processes created us and we shall die back into the Earth in due course.
https://confrontingsciencecontrarians.blogspot.com/2019/12/bringing-it-back-to-earth-centrism.html
https: //confrontingsciencecontrarians.blogspot - com/2020/02/accepting-fundamental-cosmic-truth - html
You heard what I say: “God of Time and Light, Life and Love.” Don’t be twisting my words into yours. 
It’s a notion. Just as Jesus and his Passion, is an inspiration and lesson to learn from, but that’s as far as it goes. Nothing supernatural about it.
There are the intentions of men, and the purposes of God and these are different.Nope that's where you've got it backwards. God is a product of our mindscape and only has relevance to humans, this bible and this Jesus has nothing to do with the billions of years worth of the unfolding of the Natural Creation we are a part of. ( Aka Evolution ) When we are gone this god in our heads will also be gone.
And where we are in the story can be found in Revelation.The Book of Revelations was written by men for their purposes. It is a Rorschach Test, nothing more.
@mriana“Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.” Psalm 137:9
What an apt piece of prophecy. Indeed you are happy, and indeed you consent to it. Children are God’s gift to you, yet ye despise his goodness.
It seems the only parts of the bible you have cherry picked are the most violent parts.
Now that’s delusional. Children are not gifts from any deity and this is where I bring the topic back to science, both hard and soft. They are created or should be created out of love between two people. These two people have hopefully discussed having children, but birth control can sometimes fail due to human error. Sometimes humans don’t think and have unprotected sex. There are times in which pregnancy happens due to rape or incest. This is not a gift, but a nightmare perpetuating that trauma and the woman should have a choice, made between her and doctor to terminate the pregnancy or continue it. It is not for anyone else to impose their beliefs on the woman… period. Sometimes for the sake of the woman’s life a pregnancy must be terminated. There are other legitimate reasons, but whatever those reasons, it’s none of anyone’s business. That said, if the pregnancy is continued it goes from a blastocyst to a zygote (most are monozygotes, but sometimes the cell divides into zygotes or there are two blastocysts that develop into two zygotes). It goes from there to a fetus and eventually full term. During this developmental phase, the various stages make the zygote look like a tadpole and the fetus can look like any unborn mammalian fetus, because an elephant, cat, dog, and chimp to name a few are all mammals and the just before birth, the fetus looks like our closest relatives, the chimpanzee fetus. That is because our closest living relative, that is 98% genetically like is a Bonobo. Any ultrasound would show an ape prior to birth because humans are in the category of great apes, though they aren’t that great. Sometimes I think other apes are smarter, but I’m glad to be a monkey’s aunt. That’s the basic jest of human development, but along the way, sometimes DNA sequencing gets all screwed up and causes various deformities or even death of an unborn or the mother’s life becomes endangered or both. That isn’t the will of any deity though and medical science and technology has helped to prevent some of these issues. Unfortunately or maybe fortunately, I don’t know, there is no deity that has anything to do with any of that. Yeah, I know “only a fool…” but there is no god that intervenes or anything else into human affairs or human development nor is life or a baby a gift.
Life is precious, but only because this is the only life we have and we have to make the most of it while we are alive. Even the lives of other animals are precious. Life doesn’t begin until after birth and even the Jews have that in their teachings, which is in the OT for you. I love my sons dearly and I’m glad I had them both, but that was my choice. I also left their father when the younger son was 6 months and divorced their dad, raising them on my own because he wasn’t a dad, even by the standards of a court of law. I wouldn’t change a thing about any of it. So you don’t have a clue as to what I think of children nor do you have a clue as to what I think about life. I could accuse you of not appreciating the lives of other because you eat meat (if you do that is). Eating the flesh of other animals is a vile act of murder, barbaric, and IMO and view, a form of cannibalism. None of that comes from any mythology, but rather science or what I make of science. So tell me again that I’d be happy to take a life and throw it against a rock. IMHO that is repulsive, as well as insulting since you don’t know my views on anything, obviously.
However, it’s still you who is cherry picking the Bible, because you asked me to show the opposite and showed you a plenty. Meanwhile you just showed one verse to the contrary. As for me, the Bible isn’t my guild to living an ethical life and to say it’s the only way to live is not true at all, given all the other philosophies out there that people live by and don’t commit crimes or murder like the dotard has and he calls himself an Xian. He’s not and the problem with that is that he makes atheists look bad because he’s a vile creature, who should be marginalized.
@laws-ten
There are words from David Hume that are almost directly in the US Constitution. You can’t do that with the Bible or with Popes.So?
DeChardin’s work was banned by Popes. He gave it to a friend who published it posthumously. Otherwise, it would be locked away in a Vatican vault.That is the modus operandi of the Jesuits publically they speak against each other but secretly they are working in agreement. It's even in their oath. If you understood this, you may also understand why politics never seems to fulfil the people's agenda but the elite's.
And it worked. De Chardin invented transhumanism, though his concept was called the noosphere.
Why would laws be “secretly” religious? Let’s say your freewill argument is valid. Why would God or religious leader keep secrets?Because they are working against the truth. And if you understood what they planned, you would not consent to it.
If I have free will, then I need to use my reasoning powers to determine what’s true.Yes, why would you think otherwise?
So, just give some facts oh Lord.First, I’d need to know what this means. Christians and many others have debated what “neighbor” meant since these words were written. It could mean only those near you, those who have professed their acceptance of Christ for instance.
Yes, I think it means people around us. You might argue I should not be talking to you on the internet, but going and visiting my neighbours. Generally I observe God puts people around us who are in a position to help us, and also puts us in the neighbourhood of (by which I mean near) people who it is in our power to assist.
Kind of like you are treating us here. “Gotcha” verses aren’t my thing, so no, I’m not going to quote your Bible to disprove your Bible, because that would be playing your game of using scripture to prove scripture.Do you think I am trying to catch you out? I am happy to be disagreed with but not without cause. How does that get us any closer to the truth?
If I examine the bible as a document, I go through the process of seeing what the document says for itself, and then comparing what it says against reality.
Given that the bible itself warns of corruption of the text, spiritual leaders leading people astray, people rewriting history. It behoves me to ignore their conclusions and only build on what I can establish for myself.
They as to the question as to whether it is true, I evaluate whether it is self-consistent which is a prerequisite of truth, so it is then natural to try to establish a sure contradiction. And having tested it somewhat against itself, it is also a matter of testing it practically against reality.
It is therefore not so much a matter of using scripture to prove scripture, but using scripture to establish what the text is saying. Which seems to be a step on the way to being able to say whether it is right or not. Cherry picking would be to quote scripture to support what one is saying when the complete sense of the text does not say that. But it is also possible to have understood the text and to bring out genuine witnesses.
And if I do misquote the text it is helpful to show me conflicting witnesses to bring me to a better understanding.
With most books and systems of thought I find they are mixtures of truth and lies. But the bible behaves differently. Well, the Authorised King James Version does. Not so the other bibles that genuinely are collections of stories.
"I’m sorry dear, I won’t be home tonight I just feel the need, to stick my private parts up someone’s shitter… very loving..."Wow. Now that is an open couple who can communicate intimately and directly with one another. Amazing.
Given that the bible itself warns of corruption of the text, spiritual leaders leading people astray, people rewriting history. It behoves me to ignore their conclusions and only build on what I can establish for myself.They as to the question as to whether it is true, I evaluate whether it is self-consistent which is a prerequisite of truth, so it is then natural to try to establish a sure contradiction. And having tested it somewhat against itself, it is also a matter of testing it practically against reality.
Really eloquent way of saying nothing. You used a lot of words to say you are “testing against reality”, but you never actually do that. Instead you do this:
But the bible behaves differently.If I said that about some other book, how would you show me that I'm wrong? Let's say, "Origin of the Species" behaves differently. Why is that statement wrong?
Now that is an open coupleseeing some cracks in this guy's fake persona. Shouldn't be long now
Thank you @timb. With all the frustration with @loveofgod I totally missed it.
I’m sorry dear, I won’t be home tonight I just feel the need, to stick my private parts up someone’s shitter… very loving.
You say you are a Xian and yet you said “shitter”. My mother and grandparents (my grandfather was a Church of God Assistant Minister) were Fundamngelical and to them that is a sin, so if my grandparents were still alive they’d be having you go to their alter to turn your life over to God and confessing your sin. That just goes to show how different Xian faiths are. That said, since my grandparents are dead and my mother isn’t here, I will put on mod hat.
This is your first warning for violating the rules. One rule, which you can view in the rules above 1e. Trolling. Yes, IMHO you are trolling. The other rule you violated with the above statement is 1f and I will copy and paste it:
"(f) Threads and posts are not allowed that in the opinion of Moderators are impolite, vulgar, nasty, uncivil, or otherwise disruptive to the good functioning of the either the Forum or to CFI’s mission. Free inquiry is only possible if we maintain civility. Abuse of forum members will not be permitted. In particular, abuse of Moderators for performing their responsibilities will not be permitted. What constitutes abuse will be determined by Moderators on a case-by-case basis, however in general it amounts to any racist, sexist, homo-sexist, threatening, harassing, or other personally offensive, vulgar or derogatory comments. Abuse would include so-called hate speech and fighting words.
Generally speaking, inflammatory, hyperbolic or overly emotive rhetoric is the sign of a troll and should be avoided on the CFI Forum"
That statement, and I’m sorry I missed it the first time and had to pointed it out to us, is not only using vulgarity, but it is uncivil and potentially disruptive because it is “homo-sexist”, as well as possibly offensive to some members on this forum. Please refrain from further such remarks, vulgarity, and other violations of the rules or you may find yourself banned.
@loveofgod And yes, I did go back and read it in context. It was not only homo-sexist, it was homophobic.
seeing some cracks in this guy’s fake persona. Shouldn’t be long now
Maybe sooner than anyone thinks.
@@loveofgod, Do you think I am trying to catch you out?Yup sure seems like you are pure game player. But, guess we simply can't hope for a good faith dialogue from a faithful.
I think it goes back to a Dunning-Kruger thing, one isn’t capable of reaching (seeing) beyond the self-imposed limitations of one’s Mindscapes.
Excuse me, hope you folks don’t me trying to remind everyone what this thread is supposed to be about:
I’m no scientists.But I love science.
I believe in the scientific process, which has opened my eyes to the wonders of the Universe, our Earth and it’s amazing Evolutionary story, and Deep Time along the human story, and our condition, including our fertile evolution created Mindscapes and our need to believe in something bigger than we are.
Science is basically a simple set of rules intended to remove as much personal bias from our observations and studies as possible. This is done in order to enable as rational and objective understanding of the Physical World around us as is humanly possible.
Science depends on objective observations.
Science rejects arguments from Subjective Personal Faith – in favor of objective physical observations and facts supported by measurements, followed by Constructive Rational Arguments.
The process of Science contains some universally accepted laws that the Faith Shackled are incapable of abiding by or even fathoming ( as I’ve discover from paying attention to the unmitigated crap I’ve seen them put forward time after time.).
THE SCIENTIFIC DEBATE
Require Good Faith, Honest Curiosity, Full Spectrum Skepticism, Fidelity to Truthfully Representing the facts as known.
In a Scientific Debates,
{ as opposed to Political/Lawyerly Debate which are performances, highlighted by their focus on showmanship and utter disregard for honesty or truth. Winning an argument, no matter how dishonestly achieved, is all that matters. }
Whereas the Scientific Debate’s goal is a getter collective understanding. This requires not only honestly representing one’s own evidence and arguments – it also requires honestly sharing the evidence, arguments and objects of other experts in the field.
CREATIONIST HAVE NEVER ACTED IN GOOD FAITH – THEY ARE DEPENDENT ON MISREPRESENTING EVIDENCE AND IGNORING TONS MORE.
There is a name for the FRAUD !!!
I believe in the scientific process, which has opened my eyes to the wonders of the Universe, our Earth and it’s amazing Evolutionary story, and Deep Time along the human story, and our condition, including our fertile evolution created Mindscapes and our need to believe in something bigger than we are.
Science is basically a simple set of rules intended to remove as much personal bias from our observations and studies as possible. This is done in order to enable as rational and objective understanding of the Physical World around us as is humanly possible.
Yes, @citizenschallengev3 I tried to stir it back to science with a short description of human development, but we apparently have a troll in our mists and I warned him about the trolling when gave him a warning.
@mriana. True, true, and I did notice that. Thank you.
>But see also Deuteronomy 18 and John 18 to study this. This is the Torah, an anti-thesis of Jesus’ teaching.The Jesus I know is Jesus of Nazareth and came to fulfil the law in Deuteronomy. Have you got the wrong Jesus? The great commandment in the law Jesus spoke of is found in Deuteronomy.
Loving enemies is the deal breaker because it makes no sense.It does if we trust God to judge. But even without that, you do not know if your enemy is actually trying to help you. In which case mistaking a friend for an enemy will eventually only end with everyone being your enemy.
The Jesus I know is Jesus of Nazareth and came to fulfil the law in Deuteronomy. Have you got the wrong Jesus? The great commandment in the law Jesus spoke of is found in Deuteronomy.I don't have any Jesus but only the teaching purported to have come from someone named Jesus. Let's accept that it came from your Jesus of Nazareth.
It does if we trust God to judge. But even without that, you do not know if your enemy is actually trying to help you. In which case mistaking a friend for an enemy will eventually only end with everyone being your enemy.We have not figured out cheek slapping yet (Matthew 5: 39-40) and you are moving on to loving enemies. Ok, let’s do it.
What you are proposing is a strategy well-practiced by our astute politicians in Congress and it’s about political survival: if your enemy is the enemy of your enemy, then he is your friend. And trusting God to judge seems like a cop out, an abdication on personal responsibility to do the right thing: rejecting enemies (i.e. corrupt friends).
I suggest you review the verses below and try again. This is a real tough one and I don’t think Jesus meant “enemy” in the literal sense.
Matthew 5 Verses 43 to 47Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Way more JUST than some deity that demands nonstop praise and adulation to keep for burning your ass for eternity.I think your concept of God derives from religion not from the bible.
God explicitly states that he desires mercy and not sacrifice. He desires truthful worship not lip service.
Your god of Physics punishes people for jumping off a cliff. Is that unfair? When we understand the laws they are not a burden to us. Likewise the law of God.
Hmmm, nature is infused with mathematics – Jesus is five letters and you can convert those into any numerical value you want, to fit anything you imagined. But I’ve yet to see anyone write a serious natural descriptive equation with J-E-S-U-S in it.Well, taking counting letters by their position in the alphabet, A=1,B=2,C=3,... gives J=10, E=5, S=19, and U=21. J+E+S+U+S=10+5+19+21+19=74. 7.4 is the pH of blood. It varies from that only in sick people. The pH is finely regulated by breathing. The pH increases in very ill people. This is called acidemia and can be diagnosed by shortness of breath.
If that were the case I think God would have stepped in before we managed to take it to the point that our complete self-destruction is inevitable.Actually I take that to be one of the evidences of the supernatural, it seems to me