Living without free will

General Discussion
1

Mostly talking about Susan Blackmore and her stance on free will and by extension her concluding that by there being no free will there is no self.

The notion I get from her is that things just happen because it’s all the impact of forces around us and things have consequences even if we aren’t “responsible” for any of it.

Weirder though are her ideas about consciousness, or rather the non-existence of it:

““There is nothing it is like to be me. I am not a persisting conscious entity. I do not consciously cause the actions of my body. Consciousness is not a stream of experiences. Seeing entails no vivid mental pictures or movie in the brain. There is no unity of consciousness either in a given moment or through time. Brain activity is neither conscious nor unconscious. There are no contents of consciousness. There is no now.””

Though if according to her is does not exist then what exactly explains our experience and anything else? The term for it is illusionism and others like Daniel Dennett think the same way but I just think it’s a weird term for it.

Also not to typecast or stereotype but looking at her picture kinda explains some of the wild ideas she has, IMO.

2

Some other answers I get when I look at it are kinda weird:

Answer to What is it like to live without the illusion of free will? by Regis Chapman

The “none of this is happening” is kinda odd I’ll admit.

Same with this answer:

Answer to What’s life like after realising you have no free will? by Brandon Goldfarb

Others seem more optimistic:

https://www.reddit.com/r/samharris/comments/napb1m/comment/gxuuw4b/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Though some think the ongoing self is illusion, a process and not a phenomenon.

3

What’s life like after realizing you don’t have free will?

Your experience of life is exactly the same. Realizing you don’t have free will doesn’t free you from anything. Understanding something about consciousness doesn’t alter your sense of being a conscious being.

4

Well from my understanding of the articles and what she says it supposedly does.

The argument (mostly from the first link) is that since we don’t really control our reactions to things there is no free will, no agent making a choice. Saying that “I” did that implying there was some agent who thought, saw, or did that.

She then extends that lack of free will to there being no self or agent, no “one” is doing anything, it just does, and then there is some stuff about effortless effort per Wu Wei and similar concepts. It’s sorta like how thinking our likes and dislikes aren’t really “us” because that’s just cause and effect conditioning (don’t entirely agree with that one). That there is no “I” or center under which all this is organized around.

The second link by her supposedly has some exercises that prove her point but I didn’t really get similar results.

Some think it’s depressing and what’s the point (to which she says there is no “point” in her other article). Others say it’s liberating in that there is no “Wrong choice” and you’re free from the burden of choice.

Lots of different thoughts about it.

5

You read articles looking answers that aren’t there then you don’t put in the time. As Susan says,
“The illusion of free will does not survive the kind of scrutiny I have given it here. It simply melts away. I no longer even feel its pull. People sometimes ask me how I did it; how I gave up free will, but I cannot tell them.”

Later she says she still decides on actions but doesn’t get upset about the consequences.

You get troubled without even making a decision, but merely thinking about making decisions.

The 2nd Blackmore article is really good, thanks for the link. An important point is made early on,
“By ‘illusion’ I do not mean something that does not exist but something that is not as it seems, and our inner self is like this.”
This is in stark contrast to your comments about how all this talk means “you aren’t real”. Of course you are real, science is just learning more about who we are.

6

Found another remark about the supposed positive of it, though it seems mistaken:

“ Many argue that without free will we are left having to admit we’re all essentially automated machines with no sense of purpose. If we are not free, why fight so hard to live? Why live at all?

But what is so wrong with an illusion?

The very best magic shows are those with illusions that appear so real that you can’t comprehend how they are possible. That you know it is an illusion doesn’t detract from your enjoyment – in fact, it heightens it.

When you consider what makes life enjoyable, its easy to come up with a short list of items everyone agrees on. We all want to be happy, we enjoy certain emotions, and we seek emotional and physical satisfaction. There is love.

Nothing listed in the prior paragraph changes by recognizing that free will is an illusion. For instance, you don’t need to explain the cause of a good mood to enjoy its benefits.

Whether you are a machine, a simulation, or just dreaming, all of these sensations and the enjoyment you derive from them remain the same.

Some will argue that lacking free will removes incentive. Yet paradoxically it’s the opposite. Continuously recognizing that your thoughts are tied to prior causes encourages you to treat your thoughts and actions with extreme care.

Though you can justifiably claim that your desires and abilities are entirely the result of genetics, upbringing, and prior influences, in this moment, what you do with those desires and abilities is what will determine your future level of happiness.

This remains true whether or not you appreciate the illusion of free will. No matter how you spin it, the best part is that you get front row seats to this marvelous adventure called life.

Enjoy.”

7

BUt then she goes on to say how there is no one and no actor or agent working, just motion or doing. That’s what the first one does and says. From that she draws conclusions like how consciousness doesn’t exist, or how some say nothing is really happening and it’s just an illusion.

She then goes on to say that it’s a fiction, she mentioned how this inner self is a fiction multiple times.

Everywhere I ask this the result is the same:

https://www.reddit.com/r/neuro/comments/1iv6235/comment/me9vxp3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Not to mention my part about about how our likes and dislikes aren’t us because there is no center or self it’s organized around but just the result of chains of effects just happening. That even just using “I” to describe either appeals to some fictional inner being that isn’t real…

8

That last one is kind of a doozy for me because he’s pretty much saying if it’s not observed by science then it’s make believe…

9

You could simply get a better understanding of science and know that’s a completely ridiculous statement.

10

Well I know in the Reddit post he’s just talking biology, which is one thing. But science does study a lot of different things including what he mentioned.

But in another thread a guy I mentioned referred to the self as just a story we tell, or Sam Harris who things it’s an illusion. Or that dude on teleonomic matter. Or Susan who thinks if you don’t control it then it’s not you.

I don’t really know how to answer these questions about identity or the self. On poster on there asked if we even have evidence it exists and I felt cold reading that.

11

All those questions that relate to consciousness are as yet undetermined until we solve the mystery of consciousnes and what governs and regulates it.
But that is all about psychology.

The hard science of what is causal to “emergence” of consciousness is one of the new areas of research. It clearly is associated with and the result of neural data processing functions. The electrochemistry involves is still beyond our reach due to the quantum nature of the data and cannot be directly observed because any direct observation destroys the data itself (wave collapse).

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12

Well apparently according to her and some others it’s just an illusion and there is no consciousness.

13

That is a contradiction. Illusion is a product of consciousness and the imagination. Without consciousness there can be no formation of an imaginary illusion.

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14

You can read the links I posted, I’m just relaying what she said.

15

You’re relaying it inaccurately as I and others have pointed out many times.

16

Then what is she saying because from what I’m getting it reads like a form of nihilism. She can’t even say how she let go of free will or the illusion or what living with it is like.

17

Because as I’ve been saying recently, she gave it some thought, she used mindful meditation and noticed her thoughts, she lived with the question, she understood that the world that created our language and culture didn’t know what we know now about what the universe is and how our brains function, she knows that the only constant in life is change.

So no, I’m not going to look for quotes and rearrange some words for you to chew on. That’s the exact opposite of what you need.

18

I don’t think that’s it, I think it’s more to do like there is no actor like she mentions at the end of it.

I already have trouble with questions of the self and identity when it comes to sleep based on the last post about whether the self persists through sleep or if it’s rebooted each day.

And reading this made me think that might just be true: Waking Up Lost and Confused | Psychology Today

Based on this post if people forgot: metaphysics - Does personal identity/"the self" persist through periods of unconsciousness, such as dreamless sleep? - Philosophy Stack Exchange

Which is scaring me that it’s based on memory and I who I am could be that fragile…

19

You’ve cycling through the same things over and over. Your memory is not fragile. You’re the same guy who showed up here over a year ago.

20

It’s because it hasn’t been resolved. When I read what she said it got me messed about about what I think of as me and myself, because apparently I don’t control my likes, emotions, reactions, etc so how can there be a me doing this? It then goes on to say there is no one doing anything which has sorta led me to stop seeing people as people and same for living things. I mean they are just actions right?

It’s sorta like this guy: The Wizard of Consciousness | Psychology Today

Saying the self is a story we tell, that since we don’t experiment life in real time it’s made clear after the fact. That the self only comes up after something happens. That we can’t really know someone or ourselves as a result because all this happens outside our awareness so everyone is effectively aliens…