Jan 22, 2014
I just took a moment to consider my title - I realize “realistic” is not what I meant, “incomplete” would be more accurate.
But I imagine I went for “realistic” because, well it’s the title, gotta be splashy don’t ya know.
and it did lead to a lively, fun, informative for me, thread.
They both miss the mark!
<span style="font-size: .75em;"><em>I've had a chance to do some musing, but will spare you the details.</em></span>
In terms of that thing I've said before:
<strong>I am no more controlled by determinism than a fish is controlled by water.</strong>
By that I mean we are aswim in determining factors and chains of events.
So much so ... that they are no longer in total control.
Living an engaged life, every moment demands choices that steer our actions
(or doing nothing, which is an 'action in itself')
Those actions produce feed backs, that influence the future flow of events. ...
… independent of anything about my 'grandpa' though his blood flows through my veins.
(along with 7 other grandparents, not to mention all the 'others' when we look beyond great-grand-parents, etc,
all the way down the line of originating evolutionary determinations)
What I'm getting at is that though "Free Will" may be nonsense -
The sort of "Determinism" I hear Lois and others subscribe to is even worse.
It's nihilistic and about as useful as becoming a heroin junky,
<em>not to put too fine a point on it </em> :coolsmirk:
They both miss the mark!
I've had a chance to do some musing, but will spare you the details.
In terms of that thing I've said before:
I am no more controlled by determinism than a fish is controlled by water.
By that I mean we are aswim in determining factors and chains of events.
So much so ... that they are no longer in total control.
Living an engaged life, every moment demands choices that steer our actions
(or doing nothing, which is an 'action in itself')
Those actions produce feed backs, that influence the future flow of events. ...
… independent of anything about my 'grandpa' though his blood flows through my veins.
(along with 7 other grandparents, not to mention all the 'others' when we look beyond great-grand-parents, etc,
all the way down the line of originating evolutionary determinations)
What I'm getting at is that though "Free Will" may be nonsense -
The sort of "Determinism" I hear Lois and others subscribe to is even worse.
It's nihilistic and about as useful as becoming a heroin junky,
not to put too fine a point on it :coolsmirk:
It's got to be one or the other. Either we have conscious control over our decisions or we don't. Being angry at those who take the position that we don't have conscious control does not solve this question. Calling determinists nihilistic doesn't either. You have added nothing to the discussion of free will but your own temper tantrum.
Lois
Be happy, this is my exploration, not a hissy fit missy.
And the fact is everyday we need to make many choices on many different levels
That those choices are made from within the confines of this sea of determinism that is existence on this planet in the flow of time,
doesn’t make every choice pre-determined.
Be happy, this is my exploration, not a hissy fit missy.
And the fact is everyday we need to make many choices on many different levels
That those choices are made from within the confines of this sea of deteIrminism that is existence on this planet in the flow of time,
doesn't make every choice pre-determined.
No it doesn't and I never said it was. Determinism is not predeterminism. Determinism means the factors chamge every moment and we are unaware of the process or the factors.
You think you are making choices but you don't consider what is driving those choices. You think it's your conscious mind. but your conscious mind is also determined by the same process and the same factors. I say it's millions of factors we don't know about and we can't know or control which ones are taking precedence over others.
If you still think we have free will, please provide some evidence. Wanting to have it and thinking we have it is not evidence.
Lois
Be happy, this is my exploration, not a hissy fit missy.
And the fact is everyday we need to make many choices on many different levels
That those choices are made from within the confines of this sea of determinism that is existence on this planet in the flow of time,
doesn't make every choice pre-determined.
No it doesn't and I never said it was. Determinism is not predeterminism.
Determinism means the factors change every moment and we're unaware of the process or the factors.?
You think you are making choices but you don't consider what is driving those choices.
You think it's your conscious mind. but your conscious mind is also determined by the same process and the same factors.
I say it's millions of factors we don't know about and we can't know or control which ones are taking precedence over others.
Wanting to have it and thinking we have it is not evidence.
Lois
If you still think we have free will, please provider some evidence.
Tossing stuff like that at me, is what might send me off into a hissy fit -
since it makes obvious you don't actually try to hear what I'm saying/asking.
Rather than telling me what I think, I'm more interested in hearing you explain what you believe - beyond JUST BECAUSE !
Which is all you offer.
Do a better job of tackling the conundrum
We are decision making machines,
decisions result in feedbacks we constantly assess.
We also have desires and goals we work towards,
We make choices that we learn to moderate
depending on feedbacks we receive,
in light of goals we desire.
and so on and so forth
~~~~~~~~~
Explain why your version of "determinism",
doesn't lead to nihilism.
{As for my heroin junky allusion, years ago I had a good and intelligent friend who was a junky for a while
and he shared with me that the magic of heroin was that (to use his metaphor) it took you back to your mama's womb,
nodding out in total peaceful and security.
I've never done it - but I believed him and it made quite an impression and sense in light of other things I knew/saw.
And that's what your simple acquiesce of this "determinism" sounds like,
withdrawal into something cozy less challenging then actually living life in the moment,
since according to the words I hear from you - the moment doesn't belong to you anyways. }
Like I said, I'm on an exploration so your consistently defensive approach smacks of the absolutist preacher - so excuse my irreverence.
They both miss the mark!
What I'm getting at is that though "Free Will" may be nonsense -
The sort of "Determinism" I hear Lois and others subscribe to is even worse.
It's nihilistic and about as useful as becoming a heroin junky,
not to put too fine a point on it :coolsmirk:
What exactly are you saying is wrong with determinism?
I am a determinist and I think it is very useful, probably the most useful philosophy there is. Basically as I've said before it's Buddhism. The term used in Buddhism is Dependent Arising. I think it helps with empathy, compassion, forgiveness, not being over blaming or over punitive. I think it reduces hatred. I think it encourages us to share more fairly and more.
To be clear, as I have been on many occasions, that doesn't mean I am confident that determinism is true. What I'm sure about is that it's true for all practical purposes, so it couldn't make any practical difference to us if it isn't true.
All determinism is, is the idea that there is one physically possible future that can be arrived at from the distant past.
The logical implications are that if I had done otherwise either the distant past would have been different or physical laws would have been different.
How is that nihilistic? What do you think is negative about it?
That those choices are made from within the confines of this sea of determinism that is existence on this planet in the flow of time,
doesn't make every choice pre-determined.
What difference would it make to your life if every choice was pre-determined?
Clearly you see some restriction there but the thing to do is try to get at just exactly what it is. Otherwise there will be no point to this, again.
Do a better job of tackling the conundrum
We are decision making machines,
decisions result in feedbacks we constantly assess.
We also have desires and goals we work towards,
We make choices that we learn to moderate
depending on feedbacks we receive,
in light of goals we desire.
and so on and so forth
We need to know what the conundrum is first. Your above description looks fine.
~~~~~~~~~
Explain why your version of "determinism",
doesn't lead to nihilism.
Assuming determinism causal conditions beyond your control would have had to have been different for you to have made different choices.
So, what's nihilistic about that? And if that isn't the problem what is?
Living an engaged life, every moment demands choices that steer our actions
(or doing nothing, which is an 'action in itself')
Those actions produce feed backs, that influence the future flow of events. ...
Yes.
… independent of anything about my 'grandpa' though his blood flows through my veins.
Let's simplify and just put independent of the past.
No, independents from the past is not required. It is fine that your choices influence the future and in turn your choices are influenced by past causal conditions.
What do you think independence from the past would get you?
CC,
Determinism itself is not an explanation and not supposed to be.
Determinism is based on the idea that there always are causal explanations and that effects are physically necessary consequences of their causes.
So it’s based on the idea that there always is an explanation for why one thing happens rather than another. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/determinism-causal/
Traditionally determinism has been given various, usually imprecise definitions. This is only problematic if one is investigating determinism in a specific, well-defined theoretical context; but it is important to avoid certain major errors of definition. In order to get started we can begin with a loose and (nearly) all-encompassing definition as follows:
Determinism: The world is governed by (or is under the sway of) determinism if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter is fixed as a matter of natural law.
The italicized phrases are elements that require further explanation and investigation, in order for us to gain a clear understanding of the concept of determinism.
The roots of the notion of determinism surely lie in a very common philosophical idea: the idea that everything can, in principle, be explained, or that everything that is, has a sufficient reason for being and being as it is, and not otherwise.
We are decision making machines,
decisions result in feedbacks we constantly assess.
We also have desires and goals we work towards,
We make choices that we learn to moderate
depending on feedbacks we receive,
in light of goals we desire.
Nicely put.
Determinism and free will together in a few more or less poetic lines. I wonder why LoisL doesn't see that decisions, goals, desires and even consciousness can be implemented in a deterministic machine: and that consciousness and having decisions, goals, desires are interrelated.
And btw, Lois says she does not believe in free will. But it is in fact just a philosophical pose. Think about it:
- she explained why non-human animals have no free will, by showing which capabilities humans have that animals do not (here])
- she quoted a praise on freedom here]
- she said Muslims had have enough chances (here]). How could anybody take chances when he has no free will? Her hard judgements about this subject even fit best to libertarian free will.
It is difficult to have serious discussions with her about this subject, because she prefers short opinions, and leaves the discussion when some question is too difficult, or some argument too strong. Or she reacts with just a contentless sneer.
We are decision making machines,
decisions result in feedbacks we constantly assess.
We also have desires and goals we work towards,
We make choices that we learn to moderate
depending on feedbacks we receive,
in light of goals we desire.
Nicely put.
Determinism and free will together in a few more or less poetic lines. I wonder why LoisL doesn't see that decisions, goals, desires and even consciousness can be implemented in a deterministic machine: and that consciousness and having decisions, goals, desires are interrelated.
I realise it's difficult to not mislead whatever we write on this subject.
But CC has said Determinism leads to Nihilism and that we need to be able to make choices independent of the past, he actually said independent of his Grandpa, but I think I'm accurate with my meaning.
So how is CC to take your apparent agreement with him when you in fact strongly disagrees with him, since you don't think determinism leads to nihilism at all??
But CC has said Determinism leads to Nihilism and that we need to be able to make choices independent of the past, he actually said independent of his Grandpa, but I think I'm accurate with my meaning.
So how is CC to take your apparent agreement with him when you in fact strongly disagrees with him, since you don't think determinism leads to nihilism at all??
Determinism can lead to nihilism, if one thinks it contradicts free will and responsibility. When one thinks that what we think and decide has no influence on what we do, then one is a nihilist: whatever you do, it will change nothing. Therefore values are also nonsense.
But CC has said Determinism leads to Nihilism and that we need to be able to make choices independent of the past, he actually said independent of his Grandpa, but I think I'm accurate with my meaning.
So how is CC to take your apparent agreement with him when you in fact strongly disagrees with him, since you don't think determinism leads to nihilism at all??
Determinism can lead to nihilism, if one thinks it contradicts free will and responsibility. When one thinks that what we think and decide has no influence on what we do, then one is a nihilist: whatever you do, it will change nothing. Therefore values are also nonsense.
That may be true, but what would you do about it?
Values are also determined by factors beyond our conscious control.
A theist could also say he has no control over what happens. Is he also a nihilist? Would a theist say god is in control or not?
Look at free will the way we look at evolution. Do you think animals have made conscious choices and changed the arc of evolution?
Lois
A theist could also say he has no control over what happens. Is he also a nihilist? Would a theist say god is in control or not?
Interesting thought. But in the case of Christianity it doesn't work: to rightly reward or punish people who did good or bad, free will is needed. But it might function that way in some versions of Hinduism? But I am not enough in Hinduism to answer that question.
If you are not a nihilist (as I suppose) why you aren't when you do not have free will? Can people make you responsible for what you do?
Look at free will the way we look at evolution. Do you think animals have made conscious choices and changed the arc of evolution?
That is pure nonsense. I am born with two arms and two legs, I cannot help being that way. I cannot help that I do not like Brussels sprouts. But what I do is causally dependent on what I think and decide. But what I think and decide of course has also a causal history. You seem to deny the existence of a determined decision machine.
BTW. Do not always just have a look at the last posting in a thread, but also what is said since the last time you looked into it. You will find there many questions and arguments pointed at you, that you just overlook.
A theist could also say he has no control over what happens. Is he also a nihilist? Would a theist say god is in control or not?
Interesting thought. But in the case of Christianity it doesn't work: to rightly reward or punish people who did good or bad, free will is needed. But it might function that way in some versions of Hinduism? But I am not enough in Hinduism to answer that question.
If you are not a nihilist (as I suppose) why you aren't when you do not have free will? Can people make you responsible for what you do?
Look at free will the way we look at evolution. Do you think animals have made conscious choices and changed the arc of evolution?
That is pure nonsense. I am born with two arms and two legs, I cannot help being that way. I cannot help that I do not like Brussels sprouts. But what I do is causally dependent on what I think and decide. But what I think and decide of course has also a causal history. You seem to deny the existence of a determined decision machine.
What are you saying here, they you believe in determinism after all? I am not the one denying the exiatence of a determined decision machine.
BTW. Do not always just have a look at the last posting in a thread, but also what is said since the last time you looked into it. You will find there many questions and arguments pointed at you, that you just overlook.
I don't overlook anything, but you do. And you contradict yourself.
Lois
But CC has said Determinism leads to Nihilism and that we need to be able to make choices independent of the past, he actually said independent of his Grandpa, but I think I'm accurate with my meaning.
So how is CC to take your apparent agreement with him when you in fact strongly disagrees with him, since you don't think determinism leads to nihilism at all??
Determinism can lead to nihilism, if one thinks it contradicts free will and responsibility. When one thinks that what we think and decide has no influence on what we do, then one is a nihilist: whatever you do, it will change nothing. Therefore values are also nonsense.
But GdB it does contradict the Free Will and Responsibility CC believes in, he makes that very clear. He will be annoyed again that I'm telling him what he thinks but we can see from what he writes. He thinks we need independence from the past, it's just the ordinary libertarian stuff.
Now it's not because he thinks what we think and decide has no influence on what we do if determinism is true. It's very clear that, that alone is not enough for him. He wants to avoid what we think and decide being totally controlled by factors not chosen by us.
He really has said as much if you look back through this thread. What you do is omit that and change the meaning of Free Will and Moral Responsibility, to make it look like you agree.
This is the compatibilist's game. It's not that you are wrong, you know we pretty much agree on the facts, it's that you are giving the impression you agree, by changing the meaning of words and by completely leaving out what CC sees as the problem with determinism.
A theist could also say he has no control over what happens. Is he also a nihilist? Would a theist say god is in control or not?
Interesting thought. But in the case of Christianity it doesn't work: to rightly reward or punish people who did good or bad, free will is needed.
Only Libertarian Free Will would do.
A good god couldn't rightly punish or reward us, it would be impossible.
That's why we cannot be morally responsible as ordinarily understood.
You think you are making choices but you don't consider what is driving those choices. You think it's your conscious mind. but your conscious mind is also determined by the same process and the same factors. I say it's millions of factors we don't know about and we can't know or control which ones are taking precedence over others.