Is the United States a Christian Nation?

Religion and Secularism
1

Brian Bolton’s article in the Free Inquiry is entitled “The United States Is Not a Christian Nation. It Never Has Been, and It Never Will Be”.

Granted, America is not a theocracy like Iran. Neither is the United Kingdom even though it has a monarch, Queen Elizabeth II, who is the Head of the Church of England. Is the UK a Christian nation or not? Deniers like Bolton refuses to accept the cultural DNA of the American people. He has reasons for his belief just as evolutionists have grounds to accept Darwin’s Theory.

Is there anyone out there who accept Bolton’s argument despite the fact that there are as many churches in every city and town across America as mosques in Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Indonesia? Please present your case.

2

I think you would have to clarify exactly what you mean by Christian. The US is supposed to be a republic, from my understanding, which isn’t commensurate with what it’s usually stated as - a democracy. In a republic the rights of the individual are protected but in a democracy majority rules, which means protection of 49% is potentially sacrificed for the other 51%. Of course, there is some debate about whether it’s even a democracy but a plutocracy.

Jesus said that his followers would be no part of the world as he himself was no part of it. Satan had the authority to tempt Jesus with all of the kingdoms of men of all time, which he refused. Jehovah’s kingdom will destroy all of those kingdoms remaining at the time of it’s fruition. Including the current and, according to the book of Revelation, the last world power, the US and UK.

3

No. But you can’t throw a cat in to a crowd without hitting a self-identified Christian.

4

@TimB

No. But you can’t throw a cat in to a crowd without hitting a self-identified Christian.
True enough it seems, but unfortunately I have often found that when it comes to Christian teachings you might as well skip the self-identified Christian and ask the cat.
5

I admire your diplomacy, David. If Jesus had been as skillful as you, he would have ended up sitting at the right side of Pontius Pilate instead of getting nailed to the cross.

6
I admire your diplomacy, David. If Jesus had been as skillful as you, he would have ended up sitting at the right side of Pontius Pilate instead of getting nailed to the cross.
Well . . . hmmm. I think that the point I was trying to make is that Jesus wouldn't have ended up sitting at the right side of Pontius Pilate and so neither would I. And for the record, according to the Bible Jesus wasn't nailed to a cross. The cross only entered into Christianity for the most part about four hundred years after Christ. Unless you count the Bible itself referring to it as a dungy idol in Ezekiel 8, the mystic Tau of Tammuz (Dumuzi) the Sumerian king, aka Nimrod.
7

“Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.” John 19:16

David, can you support your contention that Jesus was not crucified according to the Bible?

8

The United States is not, nor has it ever been “a Christian Nation”. In fact, there is a historical document which states this explicitly. The Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11 starts “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion…” This document was ratified unanimously by Congress in 1796, when America was just 20 years old, and signed by the President John Adams.

Now, there is an argument that the original Arabic version of this treaty did not contain the language of Article 11 and, so, that part “doesn’t count”. To that I would say that Congress didn’t unanimously ratify the Arabic version they couldn’t read, nor did Adams sign that version. Article 11 WAS contained in the version ratified and signed, so its intended inclusion is quite clear, regardless what bad translation one way or the other may have occurred.

9

@Sree I can try. Thanks for the opportunity.

First of all I would clarify that I didn’t say he was not crucified, but rather, that he didn’t die on the cross. Crucifixion, historically, means to fasten someone to something. So in mythology Prometheus, for example, is pictured or written to have been crucified or fastened to the earth or specifically, rock. The illustration of Justus Lipsius given here has two examples, one being the traditional cross of Jesus and the other a simple stake. The Romans, over time, used many shapes. The X shape, t shape, a simple stake etc. They crucified a lot, so it isn’t very likely they used two pieces of timber in an area where trees were not exactly plentiful.

The Bible uses variations of the Greek word stauros, translated into the Latin crux, both which can mean a cross of any shape, but more likely a simple one piece stake. However, the Bible also uses the term xylon, which doesn’t mean a cross but only a single piece of wood. The cross didn’t appear in Christian burial monuments etc. until after Constantine, who was a sun worshiper of the phallic idol himself, and that for political reasons.

“The shape of the [two-beamed cross] had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt. By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ.”—An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (London, 1962), W. E. Vine, p. 256.

“Various figures of crosses are found everywhere on Egyptian monuments and tombs, and are considered by many authorities as symbolical either of the phallus [a representation of the male sex organ] or of coition. . . . In Egyptian tombs the crux ansata [cross with a circle or handle on top] is found side by side with the phallus.”—A Short History of Sex-Worship (London, 1940), H. Cutner, pp. 16, 17

“Various objects, dating from periods long anterior to the Christian era, have been found, marked with crosses of different designs, in almost every part of the old world. India, Syria, Persia and Egypt have all yielded numberless examples . . . The use of the cross as a religious symbol in pre-Christian times and among non-Christian peoples may probably be regarded as almost universal, and in very many cases it was connected with some form of nature worship.”—Encyclopædia Britannica (1946), Vol. 6, p. 753

10

But according to the mythology, the resurrected Jesus, had nail scarred hands, which he used to convince his doubting disciple, Thomas, that he was resurrected.

11

@TimB

Yes. Nails. That’s what was used to fasten him to the stake. The really interesting part of that is that the body Jesus was using was not the one he was crucified with. It was a demonstration for the sake of the doubting Thomas.

12

Well that’s a new one. How did the resurrected Jesus have nail scarred hands if he was using a different body than he was crucified with? Where did he get the extra body? And are you suggesting that Jesus tricked Thomas?

13

Hey Tim, Jesus couldn’t have nailed scarred hands. Historical records showed that the Romans nailed convicted criminals to the cross by driving nails not through their hands but through their wrists between the radius and ulnar. The weight of the human body would have tore through the hands bones. The Romans were excellent engineers judging from the infrastructures they built. They would know well enough to not drive the nails through the hands. It was the artists of the Renaissance who painted pictures of the crucifixion and put the nails in Jesus’ hands. They fooled everyone including Christians who had stigmatas (scars in locations corresponding to the cruxifion). Their blood oozed out from the center of their hands where the nails were as shown in the pictures.

14

@TimB

Okay. I’m going to assume you are familiar with or at least can get access to the Biblical account. As a believer I’m in a delicate position and don’t want to do a great deal of Bible thumpin’ if you know what I mean. So, as usual, scriptural references upon request.

Jesus existed before the earth was created. In fact, he was the first of creation, i.e. created before heaven, the universe and all in it. Flesh and blood can’t exist in heaven, so he was in spirit form. Spirit means an invisible active or productive force. For example, the Greek word translated spirit is pneuma, from which the English words pneumonia and pneumatic comes. The Hebrew and Greek words can be translated as spirit, wind, mental inclination, breath etc.

He is the archangel Michael. The logos, or literally, the word, i.e. spokesperson or representative of his creator (Father) Jehovah. So, well . . . no man has seen God and lived. The representative in the case of angels (meaning messengers) of God appearing to men has most likely been Michael, unless otherwise indicated or more than one appear. So, walking in the garden with Adam, appearing as an adversary (Hebrew word satan without the definite article ha) before Balaam, guiding the Hebrew slaves out of Egypt, investigating Sodom and Gomorrah with Lot etc. was Micheal taking on human form just as the disobedient angels did when they produced the Nephilim prior to the flood of Noah’s day.

Now, Jesus sacrificed his body, his life. Specifically the body of the man Jesus. You can’t sacrifice something and then take it back. So, yes, in a sense Jesus tricked Thomas into intellectually grasping something he was incapable of grasping otherwise by altering a new body with the obligatory wounds that he couldn’t likely have done unless he was what he said he was.

And that is why he wasn’t immediately recognized by some of his followers.

15

@Sree Excellent post. But somewhat problematic for two reasons I can see. Firstly, the terms hands and wrists are interchangeable. Bible writers considered the wrists as part of the hand. See Genesis 24:22, 30, 47; Ezekiel 16:11; Judges 15:14. Also, isn’t it true that year after year crazy people will nail themselves to a cross with nails through the hands as depicted in art without the weight of their bodies tearing the nails through?

16

David: “Jesus existed before the earth was created.”

You can’t just say stuff like this in this day and age, David. We are not in Bible class or Sunday School where everyone is a devout Christian like you are. No offense. You need to treat this forum like a pajama party for adults with open minds.

17

Do you believe in miracles, David? Weight of bodies not tearing through hands is nothing compared to dead people coming back to life.

18

@Sree

David: “Jesus existed before the earth was created.”

You can’t just say stuff like this in this day and age, David. We are not in Bible class or Sunday School where everyone is a devout Christian like you are. No offense. You need to treat this forum like a pajama party for adults with open minds.


I never said I was a Christian. I’m not sure how to take this comment. It’s a forum on religion where, at least in this case, we were discussing issues relevant to the Bible.

Do you believe in miracles, David? Weight of bodies not tearing through hands is nothing compared to dead people coming back to life.
Again. I don’t know what to say to this. Uh, what comes immediately to mind is that claims of miracles can be extremely problematic. For example, the confusion that could possibly create the illusion of a miracle. You mentioned dead people coming back to life.

Matthew 27:52-53 the Greek egeiro means simply raised up rather than resurrected back to life, and in addition to this “they” (meaning the bodies that were walking around) is a pronoun, and in Greek all pronouns have gender and “they” is masculine whereas bodies” (the bodies that were lifted up) is
in the neuter. They are not the same.

Adam Clarke: “It is difficult to account for the transaction mentioned in verses 52 and 53. Some have thought that these two verses have been introduced into the text of Matthew from the gospel of the Nazarenes, others think the simple meaning is this: – by the earthquake several bodies that had been buried were thrown up and exposed to view, and continued above ground till after Christ’s resurrection, and were seen by many persons in the city.”

Theobald Daechsel’s translation: “And tombs opened up, and many corpses of saints laying at rest were lifted up.”

Johannes Greber’s translation: “Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city.”

So what is resurrection?

19

Oh, Magic. That explains anything.

Except I don’t believe in anything supernatural.

20

@TimB

Oh, Magic. That explains anything.

Except I don’t believe in anything supernatural.


I know exactly what you mean, I’m the same way.

I don’t believe in anything scientific.