In God's Image

This is one of those phrases you never define, except with other undefined phrases. I think we all do this to some degree. Most people don’t go around quoting experts or even reading academic works. These ideas have been integrated into culture. It’s not really bad, until someone takes some words like that and makes a claim that doesn’t match with the reality of nature.

Anyway. I wasn’t asking you to read the whole linked page, just pointing to it as something that matched your thoughts. Spinoza’s classic is “Ethics”. To say why we should act certain ways, he starts with the “substance” of nature. This is probably why people say he is pagan or pantheist. He’s also very logical, labeling his points and referring back to them with numbered propositions and definitions.

So, you can find things, like this study guide references:

Spinoza argues that there can be only one substance—it consists “of infinite attributes, each of which expresses eternal and infinite essence”—which he calls God. (Props I.11 & I.14) (Of particular interest is his second proof of Prop I.11 in which he argues from the possibility of God’s existence to God’s necessary existence.)

I can’t this link to the PDF to work. Go here

Then search for “Study guide to Spinoza’s Ethics, Part 1”

The Stanford page on Spinoza puts it this way:

According to the traditional Judeo-Christian conception of divinity, God is a transcendent creator, a being who causes a world distinct from himself to come into being by creating it out of nothing. God produces that world by a spontaneous act of free will, and could just as easily have not created anything outside himself. By contrast, Spinoza’s God is the cause of all things because all things follow causally and necessarily from the divine nature. Or, as he puts it, from God’s infinite power or nature “all things have necessarily flowed, or always followed, by the same necessity and in the same way as from the nature of a triangle it follows, from eternity and to eternity, that its three angles are equal to two right angles” (Ip17s1). The existence of the world is, thus, mathematically necessary. It is impossible that God should exist but not the world. This does not mean that God does not cause the world to come into being freely, since nothing outside of God constrains him to bring it into existence. But Spinoza does deny that God creates the world by some arbitrary and undetermined act of free will. God could not have done otherwise. There are no alternatives to the actual world—no other possible worlds—and there is no contingency or spontaneity within the world. Nothing could possibly have been otherwise. Everything is absolutely and necessarily determined.

There is a critique that Spinoza shifts at Proposition 15. As if he sees some flaws in his own line of reasoning, but keeps trying to hold it all together. He doesn’t really have an answer for why there is pain, or if people are just properties of God, so instead of “underlying substance” he talks of “sustaining cause” and all things “necessarily flowed” from God.

Section 2.1 of the Stanford page goes into this.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spinoza/#GodNatu

Infinitude of potentiality”?

First Infinitude is obviously the absolute context of Reality. No inside or outside to Reality-as-it-actually-is. (Entire)

Second, the absolute infinitude of Reality is not to be confused with the relative infinites. Those being emergent characteristics of unlimited potential. No limitations, therefore THIS (existence/experience) is.

Seems plain as day and a priori to me. You may disagree, or possibly just never gave it any thought.

As for applying the term God, that is simply my (and probably Spinoza’s) choice. Not sure why it is a problem for anyone? I personally find it informative, and spiritually satisfying.

Unfortunately applying the term God has also been responsible for the most brutal wars in history, just because God said it was a good idea. A perfect example of the application of a relative very bad infinitude!

Fiction and fairytales are informative and spiritually satisfying only if it is made clear that they are just imaginary metaphors and not to be taken as reality.

I figured my mini treatise on Spinoza would make it obvious that i have given such things thought. That you just repeated your phrases and didn’t respond to it, what does that say?

You mean as in Physical Reality that transcends anything our human mind can think up?

Because people talk about God as a gateway to heaven and eternal life everlasting, after we die?

If it’s reduced to “God Is Creation*” - that’s where it starts making sense to me. But most the time I hear about “God” it’s so loaded down with human interpretations and desires it’s silly. {*Creation as in Earth’s Evolution}

Yipes, that’s starting to get close to what I call appreciating the Physical Reality ~ Human Mindscape divide - along with the fact that our gods are inventions of our human psyche and evolutionary memory. :+1:t4:

write4u - "Unfortunately applying the term God has also been responsible for the most brutal wars in history, just because God said it was a good idea. A perfect example of the application of a relative very bad infinitude!"

Bit neurotic to imagine that the term “God” is responsible. Dishonest too. Do you imagine Putin being motivated by religion? Was Hitler. Were Hiroshima and Nagasaki the result of theological differences with the Japanese?

write4u - "Fiction and fairytales are informative and spiritually satisfying only if it is made clear that they are just imaginary metaphors and not to be taken as reality."

Point out those weaknesses in my metaphysics. (I’m not going to spend time fending off pre-packaged one-size-fits-all anti-theist rhetoric)

"I figured my mini treatise on Spinoza would make it obvious that i have given such things thought. That you just repeated your phrases and didn’t respond to it, what does that say?"

Should I apologize because my explanation of my terminology wasn’t massively verbose?

To be clear though, I am glad you introduced me to Spinoza. But, still don’t know what you meant by “we’ve moved on from his philosophy”. Vedanta is also still informing the lives of many people, myself included.

That wouldn’t change much. You do use a lot of words, I just respond to them, and if they don’t communicate anything, I tell you that. What else can I do?

I mean philosophy has advanced in the centuries since then. I don’t think a brief history of it by me will make much difference to you. I know that ancient scripture is still “informing” people, but that doesn’t make it correct or an approximation of how we got here or why we’re here.

If you can identify bad philosophy, then we agree that bad philosophy exists. The question is, how do we investigate the bad and find the good?

citizenschallengev4 - "You mean as in Physical Reality that transcends anything our human mind can think up?"

No…?..Reality-as-it-actually-is would include all manifestations of sentience including the potential for sentience.

citizenschallengev4 - "Because people talk about God as a gateway to heaven and eternal life everlasting, after we die?"

Some people do. Why are you generalizing from extremes? Nothing I said would warrant inclusion in your stereotype.

citizenschallengev4 - "If it’s reduced to “God Is Creation*” - that’s where it starts making sense to me. But most the time I hear about “God” it’s so loaded down with human interpretations and desires it’s silly. {*Creation as in Earth’s Evolution}"

Why do I have to point out that I have specifically not done that?

citizenschallengev4 responding to write4u - "Yipes, that’s starting to get close to what I call appreciating the Physical Reality ~ Human Mindscape divide - along with the fact that our gods are inventions of our human psyche and evolutionary memory. "

And all aspects are emergent qualities of Reality’s undivided infinitude. The “Physical Reality Human Mindscape divide” being an abstraction as much as any idea about God or gods.

Well, I’ve given it my best shot. Talking about it more will not help.

[quote=“brmckay, post:228, topic:4333, full:true”]

write4u - " Unfortunately applying the term God has also been responsible for the most brutal wars in history, just because God said it was a good idea. A perfect example of the application of a relative very bad infinitude! "

Bit neurotic to imagine that the term “ God ” is responsible. Dishonest too.

Not at all. The Crusades were specifically dedicated to the greater glory of God.

Do you imagine Putin being motivated by religion?

I did not say “all” wars, did I?

Was Hitler. Were Hiroshima and Nagasaki the result of theological differences with the Japanese?

Yes. Hitler was a spiritual person. The Swastika was a spritual symbol.

Emperor Hirojito was a “divine” person himself.

Imperial sovereignty
See also: Lèse-majesté in Japan
Unlike its modern successor, the Meiji Constitution was founded on the principle that sovereignty resided in person of the Emperor, by virtue of his divine ancestry “unbroken for ages eternal”, rather than in the people. Article 4 states that the “Emperor is the head of the Empire, combining in himself the rights of sovereignty”. The Emperor, nominally at least, united within himself all three branches (executive, legislative and judiciary) of government, although legislation (article 5) and the budget (article 64) were subject to the “consent of the Imperial Diet”. Laws were issued and justice administered by the courts “in the name of the Emperor”.
Meiji Constitution - Wikipedia

write4u - " Fiction and fairytales are informative and spiritually satisfying only if it is made clear that they are just imaginary metaphors and not to be taken as reality. "

Point out those weaknesses in my metaphysics. (I’m not going to spend time fending off pre-packaged one-size-fits-all anti-theist rhetoric)

The intent was not to point out weaknesses in your missives. The post was intended as a general commentary on all metaphorical spiritual matters. By definition, those affairs fall outside “physical reality” and ought not be causal to any “Holy war” of any kind.

I am specifically NOT referring to “physical reality” though. Reality-as-it-actually-is being the Entirety. The infinitude of the All-in-All.

(admittedly it is rare that I find people for whom that is also the obvious and most significant context to base these conversations on)

Well, I’d like to be in that club. Can you be more specific why that would be desirable but lies outside secular reality based moral tenets?

What does that term “secular” mean in the context of Entirety? How is it not also an abstraction?

secular; denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.
IOW, based on Logic and Reason.

And in the context of undivided infinitude? (no inside or outside to Reality)

Logic and reason, Intuition and myth, same status. (no distinctions)

(hint from the world of Zen practice: “holding no opinions for or against”)

This is strictly my opinion, take it for what it’s worth, which might be nothing to you. When you say things like:

And all aspects are emergent qualities of Reality’s undivided infinitude

or

I am specifically NOT referring to “ physical reality ” though. Reality-as-it-actually-is being the Entirety. The infinitude of the All-in-All.

I see that as loaded down with human interpretations and desires. It might be on par with the Buddha or Lao Tzu, but we all have read that, it’s integrated into our interpretations. And we know a lot more about the forces of nature now. If you were to define this infinitude with precision and then use it to predict something about the universe of human nature and then show those predictions are accurate, then we might have something. Until then, it means as much to me as Karen Armstrong’s “God is the God beyond God”.

It obviously means a lot more to you, but I’m not getting what that is. I’m not even sure what you mean by “talking about it more will not help”, since this seems to be a purely philosophical discussion, so that’s all there is talk.

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That’s why I was asking. I don’t think it’s wise to judge how others read you, or are confused by you.

I think because you want to clarify your position, and would like others to actually understand you, rather than be side traced by assumptions based on limited information and zero corrections.

I want to discuss this God thing so many seem to be wrestling with. I’m not trying to examine you or judge you, don’t be over-sensitive, let’s discuss your words and the idea you are trying to get across and leave our Ego’s out of it.

Aaahhhh, I think you need to chew on those words some more.

They are no abstraction. They are a simple concise enunciation of a fundamental observation regarding our human condition.

You’ve read about the Hard Problem of Consciousness?, my point is the nut as been cracked and our mind, our consciousness can be shown to be produced by our internal physical being interacting with the world around it. As Dr. Solms puts it ‘Consciousness is the inside reflection of our bodies as they make their way through life.’ Sorry if that’s redundant.

Heck trumpkins will tell you they are doing it for the glory of God and that they are God’s Foot Soldiers.

What’s that mean? Scientists at the foundation of physics and biology know all about the All-in-ALL. Quarks, fundamental forces and behaviors, Genetic structures, they can use the same words, yet represent totally different appreciations.


{Thanks Lausten, you sure are good with explaining things. I’d have liked writing something like that. Okay enough fun, gotta run again, the roller coaster has done gone over its last summit and now comes the easy run out, aka mop up operations, after another crazy, yet successful Meltdown.}

I have a feeling it may mean something like your “folds within folds”…? :face_with_monocle:

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Seriously?!

What part of Reality is actually something other than Reality?

Reality is me asking the question, you smugly ignoring it, both brains, and keyboards, quantum dynamics included. Nothing more or less Real than anything else.