Round and round you go. Where you stop, nobody knows.
Wake up people.
The definition of atheist is in reference to god.
So.
First you have to understand the definition of god.
Let’s have some fun and see how far out of the Dark Ages man has come on this subject.
Wikipedia, God - an object of faith.
What is faith? It is what ever you want to believe.
So where does that leave the meaning of “Atheist"?
What about the definition of “theist”?
[What about the definition of “theist"?]
In today’s world I would have to throw theist in the same box.
History shows us that man did not always have this problem.
All gods had names, most had wives and children. And the use of terms like atheist and theist would have presented different problems depending on the Gods.
Note, of course earlier god were animals and some were part human and part animal. I am not going that far back in history for this answer.
How much do we understand god today?
Answer some simple questions.
a. When did your religion begin?
b. How many gods are there in your religion?
c. What other religions is your religion related to?
d. Who was the first man to go to heaven?
e. Who was the first man to go to hell?
f. Who was the first man to go to heaven and hell and return?
Who do you think would be most likely to have looked for these answers, an atheist or a theist?
The definition of atheist is in reference to god.No it's not. An atheist is one who LACKS a belief in any god or gods. Anything is else overthinking the problem, (Usually to serve some sort of agenda.) and worthy of no further notice or comment.
... What is faith? It is what ever you want to believe. So where does that leave the meaning of “Atheist"?I think that faith is more of a verb than a noun, i.e., deciding to believe something without relying on the presence or absence of any, natural and objective, supporting or countervailing evidence. Anyway the important part is that faith doesn't rely on objective evidence.
Round and round you go. Where you stop, nobody knows. Wake up people. The definition of atheist is in reference to god. So. First you have to understand the definition of god. Let’s have some fun and see how far out of the Dark Ages man has come on this subject. Wikipedia, God - an object of faith. What is faith? It is what ever you want to believe. So where does that leave the meaning of “Atheist"?Your question seems confused. From wiki, God,
Theologians have ascribed a variety of attributes to the many different conceptions of God. Common among these are omniscience (infinite knowledge), omnipotence (unlimited power), omnipresence (present everywhere), omnibenevolence (perfect goodness), divine simplicity, and eternal and necessary existence. Monotheism is the belief in the existence of one God or in the oneness of God.Faith,
Faith is confidence or trust in a person, thing, deity, or in the doctrines or teachings of a religion. It is also belief that is not based on proof.[1]An atheist has no faith in god as defined by theologians. The word atheist is a specific antonym to the word theist, nothing else.
[What about the definition of “theist"?] In today’s world I would have to throw theist in the same box. History shows us that man did not always have this problem. All gods had names, most had wives and children. And the use of terms like atheist and theist would have presented different problems depending on the Gods. Note, of course earlier god were animals and some were part human and part animal. I am not going that far back in history for this answer. How much do we understand god today? Answer some simple questions. a. When did your religion begin? b. How many gods are there in your religion? c. What other religions is your religion related to? d. Who was the first man to go to heaven? e. Who was the first man to go to hell? f. Who was the first man to go to heaven and hell and return? Who do you think would be most likely to have looked for these answers, an atheist or a theist?And, pray tell, where those questions ever answered by anyone? If so, what proof was provided? No proof, no evidence, then the answers were accepted only by people of faith. One thing is sure, theists stopped trying to find proofs of anything. Their truth lies in the bible. However, today, if anyone is truly questioning the existence and nature of the universe I am willing to bet they are mostly atheists.
Sr. Member,
“An atheist is one who LACKS a belief in any god or gods."
That’s good.
And I have always seen and understand what you are saying.
But,
In ten thousand years of religion, we have had atheist for what, a couple hundred years.
I am just saying, mankind created gods. History shows us that man needed gods before he need pottery.
And look at the red ochre burials, that show up everywhere on earth, some going back over 100,000 years.
I just think that there is the possibility that as gods have changed so much that people do not believe in today’s gods. I know I don’t.
I called myself an atheist for years. Mainly because I don’t believe in belief. I want facts and knowledge.
Today I have a harder time calling myself an atheist, mainly because of the studying of the Gnostic word and older religions history. I just get a feeling that I am not 100% correct in calling myself an atheist.
So, what has changed? Well mainly my views of what god is and should be.
Now, look at the Gnostic Jesus, just a man. A man telling us to learn and seek knowledge. And that we are all part of god.
The Gnostic Jesus never said god created everything or there was a heaven or hell.
So, if the Gnostic Jesus’ god is built on knowledge and not belief, and you and everyone on earth is part of god. Then god is found by using knowledge.
Then your statement
“An atheist is one who LACKS a belief in any god or gods."
Will work for everyone except the Buddha, Hindus and Gnostics.
Now I might be 100% wrong on that last statement. But I would have a hard time calling the above groups atheists because their thinking itself is in a way god like.
Sorry for using so many words to get my thoughts out. It’s the first time I’ve been vocal about these thoughts.
Write4U
“An atheist has no faith in god as defined by theologians. The word atheist is a specific antonym to the word theist, nothing else.”
I agree.
The problem is that the theologians way of defining god, would eliminate the Gnostic meaning of god.
And I can see why. We have gain a lot of knowledge about Gnostic thinking that has only been available to use in the last forty years. So maybe the theologians need to rethink the meanings.
Example, the word theist is a belief in god. But the Gnostic findings would not qualify their thinking as believing in a god as a supernatural being. And we are talking about the teachings of Jesus.
Timeline -In 10K years of having gods. God having the power and being the all powerful in the way we think of them today have been around how long? 1700 years. or only 17% of the live cycle of god.
It would seem so. This apparently from a gnostic theist, or something?Write4U "An atheist has no faith in god as defined by theologians. The word atheist is a specific antonym to the word theist, nothing else."I agree. The problem is that the theologians way of defining god, would eliminate the Gnostic meaning of god. And I can see why. We have gain a lot of knowledge about Gnostic thinking that has only been available to use in the last forty years. So maybe the theologians need to rethink the meanings.
I was soon to learn however, that I was a naïf indeed. Not only Gnosis was gnostic, but the Catholic authors were gnostic, the Neoplatonic too, Reformation was gnostic, Communism was gnostic, Nazism was gnostic, liberalism, existentialism and psychoanalysis were gnostic too, modern biology was gnostic, Blake, Yeats, Kafka were gnostic…. I learned further that science is gnostic and superstition is gnostic…Hegel is gnostic and Marx is gnostic; all things and their opposite are equally gnostic.1http://gnosis.org/whatisgnostic.htm
Example, the word theist is a belief in god. But the Gnostic findings would not qualify their thinking as believing in a god as a supernatural being. And we are talking about the teachings of Jesus.But why does Jesus have to be a god at all?
Timeline -In 10K years of having gods. God having the power and being the all powerful in the way we think of them today have been around how long? 1700 years. or only 17% of the live cycle of god.I think you underestimate the date when the first 'intelligent' hominid looked up at the sky and trembled before such awesome power that can make such thunderous sounds, throw fire through the sky and make him miserably wet, and first try to defend his family who is huddled together trying to avoid getting wet as best they could with leaves. Even today we can look back into the past and during a severe monsoon thunderstorm see an alpha male chimpanzee yelling and screaming at the sky and beating the bushes with a stick and generally let this 'unseen and unknown enemy in the sky' know that he better respect him as a formidable opponent. Some time later this led to offerings to appease these gods and names were given the gods of all the things we saw, but did not understand. Note that all of the earliest gods had to do with the weather, the hunt, the harvest. The list of gods is incredibly long and remains so to this day even in the monotheistic religions. God, Devil, Angels, Demons, Minions. And it goes back all the way to the dawn of "intelligence".
The oldest forms of worship in the world are ancestor worship, shamanism, and animism, which are thought to date back to at least around 300,000 BCE.http://www.wisegeek.org/which-are-the-oldest-religions-in-the-world.htm It has nothing to do with discovering anything, it was a reflection of our own intellectual infancy which tries to make sense of its surroundings and ask why. This is now the job of science. While science may disagree at times, there is no rest until the conflict has been solved or the theories improved until acceptable by mainstream scientists. Religions are the only medium of inquiry where "god has confounded their language" in perpetuity. Anyone who claims that the bible is a moral guide is but partially correct. And the claim of divine inspiration is just plain incredible. It is quite possible that morals could have developed along with ever expanding settlements and sophistication in various cultures and would have been arrived at by others eventually regardless of the existence of a god. Most good moral tenets apply to all humans, regardless of religion. Look at the great thinkers and artists who created works of enduring beauty and lasting moral messages. The bible is NOT the only book around. It is the only book which claims absolute truth. As do all the other scriptures, and all can only be accepted on faith. .
Round and round you go. Where you stop, nobody knows. Wake up people. The definition of atheist is in reference to god. So. First you have to understand the definition of god. Let’s have some fun and see how far out of the Dark Ages man has come on this subject. Wikipedia, God - an object of faith. What is faith? It is what ever you want to believe. So where does that leave the meaning of “Atheist"?Absurd. Your quoting from Wikipedia is not the definition of God. Here it is - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/god The term Atheist is very accurate to describe lack of belief in that.
I just think that there is the possibility that as gods have changed so much that people do not believe in today’s gods. I know I don’t.Are the Stone age Gods more believable?
I called myself an atheist for years. Mainly because I don’t believe in belief. I want facts and knowledge.Science can help here.
So, if the Gnostic Jesus’ god is built on knowledge and not belief, and you and everyone on earth is part of god. Then god is found by using knowledge.First, you have to establish whether the Gnostic Jesus existed, and if his knowledge of God was accurate.
Write4U
RE: Timeline 10K
Yes,
I did state that with red ochre burials, that show up everywhere on earth, some going back over 100,000 years.
I used the 10K for recorded history. I believe the other is called pre-history.
I was unaware of the 300K info, thanks.
RE: moral guide.
The Vedic had good morals and was thousands of years before the bible.
As far as the bible. I do not think it has any new ideas or major concepts in religion.
Mid atlantic
RE: Are the Stone age Gods more believable?
That would be pre-history.
The question I have is about the red ochre burials that show up everywhere on earth, some going back over 100,000 years.
Sure opens up a lot of possibilities.
RE: Gnostic Jesus’ god.
The Gnostic god is 180 degrees from the God of Abraham.
Write4U
Sorry I missed one of your questions.
RE: But why does Jesus have to be a god at all?
In Gnostic, Jesus is not a god. Jesus never claimed to be a god.
The Jewish claimed that Jesus was not a god.
The Islam religion, who loved Jesus, claimed he was not a god.
That said.
Jesus got into a lot of trouble trying to explain the ideas of Gnostic thought.
Because in Gnostic, Jesus is part of god. Not the god, just part of god. So are you. Mankind together makes god.
Mary and Thomas got the message and wrote in Gnostic but the others did not.
Are you still with me?
So now I have stated that Jesus never claimed to be a god. And that Jesus said that he is part of god.
That’s where the term god had very different meanings in the different religions.
The closest term to describe Gnostic person god like features in today understanding would be to call Jesus an Secular Humanist.
Write4U
Thanks for your reply. That was great.
If you got time, go to
Introduce Yourself
Then
New member Mike, seeking the light
And read my post on the olive and let me know what you think.
It will give you an idea of my research.
Can deductive reasoning play a role in faith? What level of precision might be required for everyday living?
Is there value in having a sense of the sacred?
If the conceptualization of God evolves along with us, what might it look like down the road? Would it be more or less theistic?
Is the term “Universe” all inclusive? Does the possibility of it being sentient remain open? What is the prototype of the sense of self? The experience of “I am”?
What is the relationship of “instinct” to DNA?
(Perhaps we could just put aside the old school, Bible stuff, Greek Gods, etc. for a few minutes.)
Can deductive reasoning play a role in faith? What level of precision might be required for everyday living?I don't know. We know there are people who have faith, but are also very good at deductive reasoning. The holeshot is the idea of agnosticism-"or one can never be 100% certain". That is usually a good form of reasoning(the uncertainty part-not the theism part.)...I guess deductive even in the idea of religion. That's not my reasoning. I am 100% certain there is no god. If you wanna call that faith-it doesn't matter to me. Everyday life requires very little precision in the conscious sense.
Is there value in having a sense of the sacred?Yes. Or we wouldn't have that concept to begin with.
If the conceptualization of God evolves along with us, what might it look like down the road? Would it be more or less theistic?I like to ponder this question too...
brmckay-Is the term "Universe" all inclusive? Does the possibility of it being sentient remain open? What is the prototype of the sense of self? The experience of "I am"? What is the relationship of "instinct" to DNA? (Perhaps we could just put aside the old school, Bible stuff, Greek Gods, etc. for a few minutes.)We're getting far afield here...Lotta ground for one thread, let alone one post!
1 Like
We're getting far afield here...Lotta ground for one thread, let alone one post!Let's see if there is consensus on this. In my mind these are very related questions.
Reply to brmckay Posted: 02 June 2013 06:59 AM
Thanks brmckay for bring up a couple of points.
I’m new at this site and this is my second day here.
But I have been pushing the envelope in a couple of areas.
One of those areas is the definition of atheist.
And man has needed god for at least as far back as we have found man.
So, is the need for God in our DNA.
That’s what I wanted to call this inquiry at the beginning, but chickened out.
And there are two answers to that question.
The first is – No Way, are you nuts?
The second is – Yes!
Why 2 answers?
The way different thinking sees what god is.
You already guess it, I bet. The Yes thinkers are Gnostic and the reason for god in the first place was to answer questions that man did not know the answers to. So god was looked at as form of knowledge. And seeking that knowledge brought you closer to god.
And yes man has always sought knowledge, it’s in our DNA.
Just look at the Vedic, religion was there to answer questions and to teach. Religion was the laws, science, mathematics and more. It explained how the heavens worked and the reason for the universe. It had no direct power other than it knowledge. The king could not even rule against the Veda. The Veda held the same level as the king but did not rule. It jobs was the history of people and all knowledge, and keeper of the laws.
On the tree diagram of the evolution of religion, the Vedic is the tree trunk that all religions we talk about evolved from. It took a couple of major disaster that almost wiped out the whole Harappan people in the Indus Valley that created the first Dark Ages.