You quoted the OP, I didn’t say that. I didn’t pretend anything. Take a breath. Slow down. Read a book.
Yes, you “point out" consequences, you just don’t back them up with data.
Again, two sides of the mouth, you want to claim that the US is generous, then say you have a reason to NOT be generous. You’ve been saying all this generosity is going to cause a collapse. We’ve been generous for a long time, at least 24 years according to your data, and we seem to keep flourishing. Huh.
And I could care less what the Tea Party or some morons with guns in Texas believe, that doesn’t put the burden of proof on me. If you want to NOT help children escaping violence, it’s you who needs to explain that. Even if I’m wrong in doing it (and I’m not), I’d rather error on the side of helping children.
You quoted the OP, I didn’t say that. I didn’t pretend anything. Take a breath. Slow down. Read a book. Yes, you “point out" consequences, you just don’t back them up with data. Again, two sides of the mouth, you want to claim that the US is generous, then say you have a reason to NOT be generous. You’ve been saying all this generosity is going to cause a collapse. We’ve been generous for a long time, at least 24 years according to your data, and we seem to keep flourishing. Huh. And I could care less what the Tea Party or some morons with guns in Texas believe, that doesn’t put the burden of proof on me. If you want to NOT help children escaping violence, it’s you who needs to explain that. Even if I’m wrong in doing it (and I’m not), I’d rather error on the side of helping children.Sorry that was my error. We have been gong back and forth for so long I mistakenly thought it was you who started the thread. There is nothing at all contradictory about saying that the American people are generous and yet on the other hand saying they have a right to not give away everything. Everyone has a right to give what they want for the causes they prefer. If you offer a a bed and a warm meal to a stranger I would say that is a generous thing to do. If word gets out and the next day ten "needy" strangers show up at your door are you no longer generous because you decide that letting them in to live with you is more than you are willing to do? Concerning the data I could flip this and say that you have not provided any data either and that wold certainly be true. I have at least provided an observation as a long time health care provider on the front lines. In my own experience, a disproportionate number of the people using the health care system at the public's expense have been recent immigrants legal and otherwise. Provide me with some data to back up your side of the argument and I will start digging around for some hard data to see what the facts are but as of this moment your complaint is a bit of the pot calling the kettle black.
As long as you keep providing overly simplistic arguments and getting angry because I don’t accept them, no, I’m not going to take the 28 seconds I would need to provide a link. You dismissed the one I provided. Provide one to me, I’ll dismiss it and we’ll be even.
My country has helped refugees in the past, congress is debating the immigration issue, the guy I voted for is proposing a few billion, I’m good.
There is nothing at all contradictory about saying that the American people are generous and yet on the other hand saying they have a right to not give away everything.We are nowhere near “giving away everything". I have no obligation to be reasonable with you if you are going to say stupid stuff like that.
No body is saying we shouldn’t help anyone. Somehow you manage to come away
No one here is saying that we shouldn’t help anyone but you seem to see everything as black and white, all or none. I have stated several times that immigration is fine but opening the gates to everyone who wants to come is not, hence my analogy above. You can’t seem to understand why that would be a potential problem and believe we should just let anyone in ( Criminals and Terrorists too I assume?). If that’s not your position then clarify it for me.
You take the position that unless I can provide data proving it could be detrimental then no conversation is worthwhile. I disagree. Any conversation like this has to start with hypotheticals. Ideally it would be nice to have hard evidence to confirm or refute our theories and I have already said that I would be willing to do that. Providing me with a link is not providing evidence. I am not going to read through a whole website to see if there is something that supports your point of view especially given the quality of the last link your provided.
If you want to make a specific claim and provide data to support that then we can debate this. The problem I have found is that this is such a politically charged issue that it is difficult to find data that is published by an impartial source. There is a lot of stuff out there but the vast majority of it is hosted on sites that have an agenda on one side of this issue or the other. I can find lots of stuff to support my side but its tainted by this bias as is the majority of the stuff I can find to support your point of view. The Heritage Foundation and ImmigrationPolicy.org are not exactly there to provide unbiased info.
If you can find an organization that doesn’t have an agenda on one side of this issue where we can find independent data let me know.
This article points out some of the difficulty in determining the costs of illegal immigration
You'd know more about that than me, but I think a much larger problem is uninsured Americans going to emergency rooms for health care, often after putting off medical attention that could have prevented an emergency room visit. The bottom line is we need universal health care in this country. But that discussion is off-topic for this thread. The OP concerned Central American children coming to the U.S. to escape enslavement, torture and death at home. Would you look them in their eyes and tell them they are not welcome here?Would you saybthatbto the 50 million other refugees in the world? Should we allow our resources to be so overwhelmed and depleted that our own infrastructure fails (and it will, sooner or later)? What would happen to the refugees then? Which is more important, that we take in every deserving person who wants to come here or we preserve our economy and infrastructure from collapse? Neither we nor the refugees gain anything if that happens. In fact, it will create more refugees in the process, many of them from the US. Lois
No one here is saying that we shouldn't help anyone but you seem to see everything as black and white, all or none. I have stated several times that immigration is fine but opening the gates to everyone who wants to come is not, hence my analogy above.You're the one who keeps saying "everyone" "give away everything" and "what if it increased by 10". None of those things are happening, thus no point in trying to have a reasonable discussion.
You can't seem to understand why that would be a potential problem and believe we should just let anyone in ( Criminals and Terrorists too I assume?). If that's not your position then clarify it for me.As Reagan used to say, well... there you go again.
You take the position that unless I can provide data proving it could be detrimental then no conversation is worthwhile.No, I take the position that you have provided no data.
If you want to make a specific claim and provide data to support that then we can debate this.You apparently understand how debates are supposed to work. Any time you want to start one, go ahead.
The problem I have found is that this is such a politically charged issue that it is difficult to find data that is published by an impartial source. There is a lot of stuff out there but the vast majority of it is hosted on sites that have an agenda on one side of this issue or the other.Treating people with dignity, using the resources of the richest nation in the world to help a few kids, that's not an "agenda", that's the low bar that we should be stepping over.
I can find lots of stuff to support my side but its tainted by this bias as is the majority of the stuff I can find to support your point of view. The Heritage Foundation and ImmigrationPolicy.org are not exactly there to provide unbiased info. If you can find an organization that doesn't have an agenda on one side of this issue where we can find independent data let me know.It sounds like you are having trouble finding orgs that support your argument but that don't appear to be biased. That should tell something.
I thought the question was about the current so-called crisis or “wave" of young people.
This article speaks to some of your comments about increased need for security, potential terrorists and sick people. ]
This one answers somebody’s comment about other countries not getting an increase in refugees ]
Even Boehner is for reform ]
This one will take 10 minutes of your life ]
You have done no research into this issue. Undocumented aliens are not all migrant farmers and day laborers. Many have real jobs with a fake SSN. So taxes are taken out of their paycheck, just like everybody, put they can't file, so they never get a return.I love how you tell people they have done no research into this issue. Everything you put on here is hearsay and myth. Plus editorial news clippings from illegal immigrant advocate news sources. 1. Anybody can claim enough dependents on their W-4s so that no taxes are taken out and they actually owe the IRS at the end of the year. Thus they don't pay any taxes and actually owe the US money. 2. What makes you think that people who have had taxes deducted from their checks with a fake Social Security Card can't file for a refund? If they have a SSN, a name and an address they can file for a return. It's that simple. People with fake SSNs file for disability, tax refunds, death benefits etc all the time. They also get welfare, WIC, Food Stamps etc with false documents. It happens all the time. 1. So what? So don't keep putting out more mis-information and lies about how illegal immigrants don't get tax refunds. Anybody who gets taxes taken out of their checks gets a refund if they are entitled to one. It's the law. They also get welfare, WIC, Food Stamps, Emergency care etc... With millions of illegal aliens drawing on that kind of social welfare support, it's no wonder that ordinary American Citizens have such a hard time realizing these kinds of benefits. It's no wonder that so many conservatives want to cut these benefits off. It's no wonder why healthcare costs are so high.
Link:
La Times 07-15-2014]
“Refugees” being returned to their own countries. Heavy emphasis on my own quotation marks here.
So don't keep putting out more mis-information and lies about how illegal immigrants don't get tax refunds. Anybody who gets taxes taken out of their checks gets a refund if they are entitled to one. It's the law. They also get welfare, WIC, Food Stamps, Emergency care etc... With millions of illegal aliens drawing on that kind of social welfare support, it's no wonder that ordinary American Citizens have such a hard time realizing these kinds of benefits. It's no wonder that so many conservatives want to cut these benefits off. It's no wonder why healthcare costs are so high.According to this article, we're both partially correct.] Although, saying someone who makes a low income is ripping off the US for its free educational system is pretty weird to me.
Laustren you seem to prefer belligerence to actual logical argument. There doesn’t seem to be much point in trying in discussing this with you as we don’t make any progress.
Laustren you seem to prefer belligerence to actual logical argument. There doesn't seem to be much point in trying in discussing this with you as we don't make any progress.As I've said many times, I never felt you were engaging in a logical or reasonable discussion. If you consider it belligerent for me to point that out, there's not much more I can say about it.
Here are a couple more links. ]
Better than the previous ones IMHO.]
Funny thing is, my top hit was this fact check. A fact that I was not aware of. ]
So I learned something. But not from any of you.
But here’s what I don’t hear from your side. If immigrants are “taking jobs from US citizens", then they are working. Employers generally don’t hire someone out of charity. If an employer is paying a worker, they are making money as a result of whatever they produce. That is a contribution to the GDP. GDP grows, pretty much always. So you are in the position of showing that particular jobs are filled by immigrants that would otherwise be filled by US citizens and all those people working is not growing our economy. Granted there is unemployment, but there are also unfilled jobs. People generally don’t lose a $25/hr factory job and immediately take a minimum wage job.
These are complex factors that none of you have addressed. I don’t claim my side is any easier, that is, showing that the immigrant contribution to the economy somehow all balances out. But then, I don’t think that way. I don’t expect everyone to contribute an exact amount according to their ability equal to their needs. I expect people to do their best, and that everyone understands that giving all children some basic level of education is good for everyone. I expect everyone to understand that low income jobs sometimes lead to things like losing a finger and it’s better for all of us to share that risk and share in the consequence. Doesn’t seem that complicated to me.
What should I make of this non-response? Is there no way to say that “Mexicans are taking our jobs” AND “Mexicans are lazy criminals”? I certainly can’t imagine that making sense. Or, if undocumented aliens on low incomes are harming our economy by sending their children to school or going to the emergency room, then shouldn’t we just change the entire system to a pay as you go system where anyone of low income can only use as much of those services as they can afford?
I lost site of this thread. Great discussion. There was one post though that really hit the nail on the head, for me at least. And that was the comment that illegal immigration is really about the corporations that hire and exploit immigrants. Again, capitalism at its worst. The issue needs to be rebranded: Illegal Hiring Of Immigrants by Law-breaking corporations.
I lost site of this thread. Great discussion. There was one post though that really hit the nail on the head, for me at least. And that was the comment that illegal immigration is really about the corporations that hire and exploit immigrants. Again, capitalism at its worst. The issue needs to be rebranded: Illegal Hiring Of Immigrants by Law-breaking corporations.Republicans love having a large population of workers who are so desperate for work that they'll work for almost nothing. And having a lot of them means there are always more should the first ones want anything like a raise, a vacation or benefits. Capitalism at work.
I lost site of this thread. Great discussion. There was one post though that really hit the nail on the head, for me at least. And that was the comment that illegal immigration is really about the corporations that hire and exploit immigrants. Again, capitalism at its worst. The issue needs to be rebranded: Illegal Hiring Of Immigrants by Law-breaking corporations.Republicans love having a large population of workers who are so desperate for work that they'll work for almost nothing. And having a lot of them means there are always more should the first ones want anything like a raise, a vacation or benefits. Capitalism at work. Yup, and doing away with the middle class will ensure poverty stricken workers third world style