Very true. For the past few decades the minimum wage keeps going up but with a large amount of resistance. I can imagine that if the trend isn’t reversed, in the next thirty years or so, legislators will be passing laws to lower minimum wages.
Occam
Many of the people coming from south of the border are attempting to escape from the violence of the drug gangs that our stupid drug laws create. Its seems the US gov’t has earned nothing from Prohibition.
Also remember “No Irish need apply.”
Thank you to the voices of reason. My faith in humanity has been restored.
Thank you Uncle Sam. My faith in humanity is restored.
US expedites deportations to discourage more waves of illegals…NYT]
I guess they deport them for purely spiteful, hateful reasons…
In a related article in the WAPO, the US is supposedly about to see a wave of corporate “self-deportations” as a large number of companies seek tax refuge under foreign banners.
Perhaps some of you can connect the dots here and see a couple of different relationships between these two articles.
They both illustrate concepts of nation. They have underlying ties to the economics and politics of nation.
They both illustrate the bad that can happen when the idea of nation and state become too loose, too lax.
When the price for franchise in the state begins to only apply to us, ie those of us still in the US-workers and professionals, we lose.
When the franchise is opened free of charge to millions of 3rd World people who bring nothing to the table except poverty, or the franchise can be played so that a company can reap all the benefits of state without having to put back into the franchise, who do you think suffers?
We suffer. We have been suffering. The country is becoming an open bazaar.
Many of us are paying to keep this bazaar running, and we are seeing less and less returns.
Last I heard VYAZMA has me on ignore, so he missed my questions here]. Not much point in responding to him until he sees that.
Lausten-Get people to hate other people who are just like them, except for their ethnicity. Get them to focus on fighting each other for the scraps you are throwing them. If I’m wrong, then you need to come up with a justification for why you get to have everything you have. You can’t deny that America was built on war and slavery. If we somehow deserve this land and others don’t, then you are saying all of that is just and right.
Okay, so you saw it. Sooooo, are you saying it is right and just to forcibly take land from others and even to strip resources from other nations then say you are somehow smarter or otherwise privileged to reap the benefits of those resources? I realize you personally did not burn down any villages anywhere, but you benefit because someone else did.
Lausten-Get people to hate other people who are just like them, except for their ethnicity. Get them to focus on fighting each other for the scraps you are throwing them.This works excellently in the confines of a nation state regarding her own citizenry. So, you had me up to here. I think it is very important to combat these forces of division and prejudice within the confines of one's own nation and her citizens. What this has to do with foreign nationals from other countries I don't know. Unless of course your argument is a plea towards Internationalism and passion. Which again, I will note as honorable and even worthwhile-within a framework of organized laws and statutes and international aid and support.
If I’m wrong, then you need to come up with a justification for why you get to have everything you have.Well yes, you are wrong. Your only reasonable, noteworthy argument in these multiple threads on illegal immigration is a passionate plea for a vague concept of Human Justice or some such amorphous concept which you have failed to flesh out. Your failure to flesh this concept out shows that it cannot be plugged into actual economical-political resource/infrastructure systems. This being the prime reason for immigration laws in the first place. The US and most(99%) of all other countries have immigration laws and regularly deport foreign nationals who have entered the country illegally or over-stayed their visas. The reasons for this are myriad and have been touched upon previously. Your counter to this is that the World should be open and everyone should be allowed to roam freely-especially the people you deem neglected or victims of conquest or colonialism. This illustrates how obtuse and shallow your understanding of history and culture really is. Plus your impassioned plea for me or anyone to justify why or how I get the things I have or how I earned them is cheap and disgusting.
You can’t deny that America was built on war and slavery. If we somehow deserve this land and others don’t, then you are saying all of that is just and right.This is laughable. That's sounds like the argument of a 12 year old who can't get their own way. Really! I can't help reading your statement there without hearing a whiney, petulant tone. :lol: First, the US wasn't built on war and slavery. It had wars, conquests, and slavery but there was so much more also that built the US. The Mayans had wars and conquest and slavery too...they also had so much more than just war and slavery. The Aztecs had wars and slavery and conquests..they also had so much more to their civilization. The Incans had wars and slavery and conquests...they also had so much more that built their civilization. And finally...the Spaniards had war and slavery and conquests. They too had so much more that built their Empire. In fact at any time in history, virtually all civilizations and empires were partly built on Wars and Slavery. So what's your point Lausten? What's your point? You have no point. Other than an impassioned plea for some amorphous concept of "Lennonism" (The Imagine Song.) The world is divided into countries for a reason Lausten. Countries make rules.
Your counter to this is that the World should be open and everyone should be allowed to roam freely-especially the people you deem neglected or victims of conquest or colonialism. This illustrates how obtuse and shallow your understanding of history and culture really is.I never said that. I said people are coming here and working. The fact that people pay them anything shows that they need them. You can’t say both that they are “taking our jobs" and “ripping off our economy" because those two statements are incompatible. It says all of those employers are working against their own best interest and that the rest of us are allowing it. And if you are only talking about the children, you have shown zero evidence that we can't afford to take care of them. Those countries you mention all take in refugees when there is internal strife in nearby countries. It's normal and even expected behavior of the countries that have the resources to do it.
Lausten-I never said that.I know, you said this: If I’m wrong, then you need to come up with a justification for why you get to have everything you have. You can’t deny that America was built on war and slavery. If we somehow deserve this land and others don’t, then you are saying all of that is just and right.
I said people are coming here and working.Yeah, you didn't have to say that. We've already determined that. They are here working illegally.
The fact that people pay them anything shows that they need them.No kidding! Lot's of companies are more than willing to break the law in order to pay the lowest wages possible. This undermines the US Labor Force and economy.
You can’t say both that they are “taking our jobs" and “ripping off our economy"Sure I can, we just determined that they are taking American Jobs. And they are ripping off our economy by not paying taxes, and leaning heavily on Social Welfare Networks thus putting pressure on US Citizens who need these services. It's no wonder Conservatives want to stymie social services and Food Stamps etc...
And if you are only talking about the children, you have shown zero evidence that we can't afford to take care of them. Those countries you mention all take in refugees when there is internal strife in nearby countries. It's normal and even expected behavior of the countries that have the resources to do it.I don't need to show that evidence. If these children were refugees, then they could have easily found sanctuary in Mexico where they passed through for hundreds of miles. Which is basically what the US has ascertained. That's why they are going back. They don't fall under refugee status. The US can afford to take refugees legally, we do it all the time. From Burma, Somalia, Syria and Iraq, etc etc.. That's done legally through the proper channels. Not by sneaking through for hundreds of miles through one country to get to a country of choice. The US! That's not refugees. That's emigration!
I think Lois pretty much hit the nail on the head. Immigration can be a positive thing when the its done in an orderly fashion and the immigrant has something to contribute to their new country. On the other hand when immigration occurs at a pace that overwhelms the existing resources and social supports and when there is no filter on the type of individuals that are allowed to enter it can clearly be harmful. Letting a reasonable number of highly trained scientists and engineers immigrate could be a big plus, but allowing hoards of illiterate, uneducated and unemployed people in who quickly tap social services would be an enormous drain especially if there are some criminals sprinkled in among them. This is what legal immigration is all about. Its about a countries right to impose restrictions so that immigration will be beneficial and not harmful. Illegal immigration removes the safeguards that protect a country from harmful immigration.The idea of resources being overwhelmed seems central to Lois' argument. It is valid as an argument for having an immigration policy. It does NOT apply to the current situation of Central America children arriving at our southern border. I'm not sure when it has ever applied to any real situation in this country. Bill Moyers on refugees] The results of children showing up on the border are exactly the same as adults doing the same thing. It's just that the government is less likely to send kids back. The people sending them and waiting for them to arrive also know this. The harm is the same. Someone sent the kids here and someone, probably also here illegally, is waiting for them to arrive,. The pressures on the infrastructure are the same. The necessity for controlling the flow are exactly the same. Lois
VYAZMA;
Earlier you said I was wrong because I said undocumented workers don’t get tax returns, now you’re saying they don’t pay taxes. You’ll just say whatever you want, whenever when you want with no facts behind what you say.
VYAZMA; Earlier you said I was wrong because I said undocumented workers don't get tax returns, now you're saying they don't pay taxes. You'll just say whatever you want, whenever when you want with no facts behind what you say.Yes I remember that briefly. You'll have to dig it out and quote me directly to search for any contradictions. I said it was possible for anyone to file for tax returns. It is possible for anyone to get a tax return. Of course many illegal aliens don't pay any taxes at all because they work under the table. Many more probably file for returns and get all their money back. It's a very difficult thing to ascertain because they live in a shadowy world. There's very few records on them. But I'm sure the overall tax levy against illegal aliens is low. Probably very low.
Quoting Vyzama:
Of course many illegal aliens don’t pay any taxes at all because they work under the table.Come on, Vy, that’s because the employers are cheating and should be fined.
Those employers who hire them “above the table” have to pay unemployment insurance, social security (and deduct the same amount from the employee’s paycheck). Since they have to use fake S.S. numbers they are never eligible for receiving S.S. payments when they retire. If the employer takes income tax deductions, they are also listed under the fake S.S. number. If the worker files for a refund, s/he has to first file a tax return, then for the refund. If s/he gets it based on that fake number, that’s the fault of sloppy government work, not checking properly. If they did, the person both wouldn’t get a refund and the INS agents would show up at his/her door.
Occam
So what do you think of the comment made earlier that this is not a problem of aliens, it is a problem of illegal hiring. If taxes aren’t being deducted, then the employer is not paying their portion either. And if they are paying below market wages, then they are getting wealthier in the current system than if we reformed the system and recognized these workers and provided them with the same protection of their rights that we get. You keep saying we can solve the problem by sealing the border, but if rich people want to hire cheap labor, they’ll figure out a way to do it.
VYAZMA; Earlier you said I was wrong because I said undocumented workers don't get tax returns, now you're saying they don't pay taxes. You'll just say whatever you want, whenever when you want with no facts behind what you say.Yes I remember that briefly. You'll have to dig it out and quote me directly to search for any contradictions. I said it was possible for anyone to file for tax returns. It is possible for anyone to get a tax return. Of course many illegal aliens don't pay any taxes at all because they work under the table. Many more probably file for returns and get all their money back. It's a very difficult thing to ascertain because they live in a shadowy world. There's very few records on them. But I'm sure the overall tax levy against illegal aliens is low. Probably very low. They pay taxes, nevertheless. They pay sales taxes and, indirectly, property taxes through rent, and they pay all the hidden taxes everyone else pays whenever we buy anything. You can't maintain that they pay NO taxes just because they are not paying income taxes. Most would be exempt from Federal income taxes because of low income and exemptions even of they did file returns. So the Federal tax coffers are no worse off than if they weren't here. And employers are happy to have them working for less than minimum wage and off the books. That way they themselves don't pay a lot of taxes--and benefits--they would have to pay if they were hiring American citizens. THAT's where the tax deficit lies--with the employers. Fine upstanding Americans, every one of them. Lois
You keep saying we can solve the problem by sealing the border, but if rich people want to hire cheap labor, they'll figure out a way to do it.Where do I say that the solution is sealing the border? The solution is going after the employers that hire illegal aliens. I've already affirmed that in a few posts. The tax discussion here is a distraction. At best it's a baseline figure that goes across the board regarding low-income Americans who are struggling and illegal aliens who are no doubt lowering the baseline wages for those American Citizens. Illegal Aliens are lowering the baseline wages for all Americans.
Quoting Vyzama:Yes I agree. That should be the first step-going after employers who hire illegal aliens.Of course many illegal aliens don’t pay any taxes at all because they work under the table.Come on, Vy, that's because the employers are cheating and should be fined. Occam
Where do I say that the solution is sealing the border? .What did you mean by this:
This problem was started by Congress’ Asylum Law that GWB signed in 2008. It was compounded by Obama and his Dream Act laws.
Where do I say that the solution is sealing the border? .What did you mean by this:
This problem was started by Congress’ Asylum Law that GWB signed in 2008. It was compounded by Obama and his Dream Act laws.It sent a message to foreign nationals that it was ok to illegally enter the United States under the pretext of age or asylum status or both. If you wrongly equate that with sealing the borders that's fine also, because sealing the border is definitely one part of the machine in combating illegal immigration. That's obvious. We wouldn't have Customs Agents or Border Patrol otherwise. I'm not going to keep round and round with your circular arguments Lausten. We'll see where the political will of the American People takes us from here. The laws are already on the books...they just need to be enforced. I'll will be following these issues closely as always. You've made your points....you're for illegal aliens because of compassionate reasons and because you feel Nations and Citizenship means nothing. My points are: the laws are already on the books! We shall see where the political will goes from here as far as enforcement goes.