Yeah, I'd rather be buried under some tomato and pepper plants to help them as fertilizer. That way, as people eat their tacos and tostadas they'll get a little bit of me. :lol: OccamI'm sure you would spice them up nicely, Occam. :-) Lois
As far as I have been able to determine, embalming is not required in any state unless there is a delay in disposal or the body is being shipped across state lines. Funeral homes push embalming because it is a lucrative service. Most Jews are not embalmed and are buried within a day. There is no reason a person or family cannot choose the method of disposal, but it's best to know all options. Green burial is one alternative to expensive cemetery burial or cremation. It is legal and available in California. I don't know of any state where it is not legal, though some states might not yet have green burial grounds. It is a method of disposal that is growing in the US, giving an alternative to cremation, which many people are not comfortable with. LoisCremation simply means rushing a natural process. IMO, it is neither necessary nor desirable. Why should loved ones feel the need to reduce a body to ashes for reasons of space, convenience and cost when there is a better, more humane, more easily accepted alternative? I, for one, would rather have my loved ones gently placed in a green cemetery than cremated. I would prefer it for myself, as well. Cremation is barbarous, IMO.Until I read your post I'd never even heard of "green burial" and I can assure you that no one in our area has either. And the concept of this method as being the pinnacle of burial methods is IMO simply a matter of opinion. Baring state laws (some require embalming and some don't) the idea of saving tillable land appeals to me and I see absolutely nothing barbaric about the practice. Personally I like the idea of scaffold burial, but that is illegal so I'm going with cremation. my sister-in-law, a medical secretary and hard core Baptist wants a simple funeral service and in her will wants to donate her corpse to a body farm. I also have had acquaintances who willed their bodies to university medical centers. There are several options open to us and I chose cremation for several reasons, space being only one. Cap't Jack
I have a long time friend who's family owns a funeral home and the cost of a typical funeral usually starts at $7,000 and up depending on the added costs which I won't go into now. Having it at home may be a bit grisly but it's one hellova a lot cheaper. Personally, I'm going with cremation. Cap't JackI'd like a wake: 'Everybody should get loaded and remember the good times we had together.' :-) Other than that... I've told my wife I want my body donated to science (as I won't be needing it any more). :lol: Take care, Derek
Hopefully Mike's contention that religious institutions will morph into a more secular humanitarian organization will come to pass. At least then when Jesus comes back he'll be able to recognize his followers as just that. Cap't JackI didn't say churches would become more secular humanist, just that they change enough over time to keep the customers happy.
I have a long time friend who's family owns a funeral home and the cost of a typical funeral usually starts at $7,000 and up depending on the added costs which I won't go into now. Having it at home may be a bit grisly but it's one hellova a lot cheaper. Personally, I'm going with cremation. Cap't JackI'd like a wake: 'Everybody should get loaded and remember the good times we had together.' :-) Other than that... I've told my wife I want my body donated to science (as I won't be needing it any more). :lol: Take care, Derek A wake does not require a body. You can have both. If everyone is loaded they won't notice, anyway. Lois
I didn’t say churches would become more secular humanist, just that they change enough over time to keep the customers happy.Yeah, I inadvertently combined your post with Lausten's but after reviewing yours you just mentioned changing the name. I don't see how that would "keep the customers happy" though. They already offer free coffee and donuts to keep the parishioners awake during the sermon. Bicycle giveaways perhaps? Even the megachurches offer athletic facilities for the teenagers and modern music for the service. It seems that the transition has already started. Cap't Jack
As far as I have been able to determine, embalming is not required in any state unless there is a delay in disposal or the body is being shipped across state lines. Funeral homes push embalming because it is a lucrative service. Most Jews are not embalmed and are buried within a day.After I read your post I looked up "green burials for Ohio and we have one, only one and that is just below Cleveland, approx. seven hours from here. And as to embalming, you're right but funeral homes push it here because the average wait for Inhumation is usually three to four days depending on the circumstances. Much of the wait time is due to allow family members travel time. Cap't Jack
A wake does not require a body. You can have both. If everyone is loaded they won’t notice, anyway.I actually did that when a buddy was killed in Vietnam. His father flew us to Oklahoma and put us up for a week because he wanted us to be pallbearers. It was symbolic because his body was never found; his helicopter was destroyed while attempting to rescue a downed flyer. We had all the Coors we could hold for a whole week. I still miss the guy but not because of the beer. Cap't Jack
Yeah, I'd rather be buried under some tomato and pepper plants to help them as fertilizer. That way, as people eat their tacos and tostadas they'll get a little bit of me. :lol: OccamEw the thought of that creeps me out. In my university, there is a display of an ACTUAL human skeleton which was once used for undergrad studying. The though of ending up like that or anything similar haunts me.
Back to the original question. We are making great progress in genetic engineering. It won’t be long before we will be able to manipulate the embryo’s genes to modify his/her IQ significantly. I see two likely paths:
- The new generations will have average IQs above our present, say, 200. The churches will quickly disappear.
- The wealthy assure that only their offspring get upgraded while the middle and lower class kids are given genes to make them more subservient and accepting of authority. Churches will thrive as a voice of the plutocrats.
Occam
Back to the original question. We are making great progress in genetic engineering. It won't be long before we will be able to manipulate the embryo's genes to modify his/her IQ significantly. I see two likely paths: 1) The new generations will have average IQs above our present, say, 200. The churches will quickly disappear. 2) The wealthy assure that only their offspring get upgraded while the middle and lower class kids are given genes to make them more subservient and accepting of authority. Churches will thrive as a voice of the plutocrats. OccamAnd we'll all be living in Paradise!
Someone on the previous page alluded to a good point…there will likely be a rebadging of churches and shifts in their roles of teaching religion and dogma to institutions that instead rally around certain causes; for example, helping feed people in other countries. For example, I am an athiest, but attend a Unitarian Universalist church–there are many atheist and those that are spiritual, keep it personal and we all respect each others own path (there is no dogma or creed you must accept). One of the main reasons I attend is for the social justice activities and community. You don’t need a god to form a place of community and gathering within your community/demographic area. A lot of people fear that if churches fall away, so will community.
Someone on the previous page alluded to a good point...there will likely be a rebadging of churches and shifts in their roles of teaching religion and dogma to institutions that instead rally around certain causes; for example, helping feed people in other countries. For example, I am an athiest, but attend a Unitarian Universalist church--there are many atheist and those that are spiritual, keep it personal and we all respect each others own path (there is no dogma or creed you must accept). One of the main reasons I attend is for the social justice activities and community. You don't need a god to form a place of community and gathering within your community/demographic area. A lot of people fear that if churches fall away, so will community.Yes, and they're wrong. As long as there are humans there will be communities. It's just that theistic churches have cornered the market--until now. Community venues will change. I also think UU churches are in the forefront of the movement away from theistic churches as the only community centers. Lois
Yes, and they're wrong. As long as there are humans there will be communities. It's just that theistic churches have cornered the market--until now. Community venues will change. I also think UU churches are in the forefront of the movement away from theistic churches as the only community centers. LoisOne hopes. Many of my discussions with atheists lately end when I start to connect religion to bad behavior. They insist that their organization does only good in the world. It is mostly an accident of history that the Catholic church ended up with so much power then passed along their skill of guilting people into giving them money on to the Protestants. There is obviously a strong urge to give but so many say they are doing God's work instead of simply what needs to be done. It's a little harder to get people to volunteer when you have to explain why it's needed. I hope that civic organizations will continue to grow and fill the void that churches are creating, but it's hard to predict.
Yes, and they're wrong. As long as there are humans there will be communities. It's just that theistic churches have cornered the market--until now. Community venues will change. I also think UU churches are in the forefront of the movement away from theistic churches as the only community centers. LoisOne hopes. Many of my discussions with atheists lately end when I start to connect religion to bad behavior. They insist that their organization does only good in the world. It is mostly an accident of history that the Catholic church ended up with so much power then passed along their skill of guilting people into giving them money on to the Protestants. There is obviously a strong urge to give but so many say they are doing God's work instead of simply what needs to be done. It's a little harder to get people to volunteer when you have to explain why it's needed. I hope that civic organizations will continue to grow and fill the void that churches are creating, but it's hard to predict. Most churches I've been to do very little (contribute very little money) to actual causes outside of their church. The only benefit from their existence would be the socialization aspect that it provides it's attendees and members (which does offer emotional benefit, perhaps). When you think about all the money that gets funneled into churches, it seems ashame because most of that money probably just goes to maintaining church facilities, keeping the public "show" going, paying utilities etc. I already pay my own bills and have no interest in paying those of some church. If I am going to give money, I want it to benefit someone/some worthy cause in this world. Just as an experiment, try visiting the websites of local churches in your community...do you find any "outreach" projects? I had a hard time finding churches in my community that do.
One thing many of the larger churches and most denominations do is send missionaries to other countries, this helps the relatively isolated people of the us understand and possibly sympathize with many different peoples and their problems, when I was much younger and the Kennedy’s peace corp. was much publicized I was hoping that this would be the non-believers answer to this. Unfortunately today you never even hear about it.
Most churches I've been to do very little (contribute very little money) to actual causes outside of their church. The only benefit from their existence would be the socialization aspect that it provides it's attendees and members (which does offer emotional benefit, perhaps). When you think about all the money that gets funneled into churches, it seems ashame because most of that money probably just goes to maintaining church facilities, keeping the public "show" going, paying utilities etc. I already pay my own bills and have no interest in paying those of some church. If I am going to give money, I want it to benefit someone/some worthy cause in this world. Just as an experiment, try visiting the websites of local churches in your community...do you find any "outreach" projects? I had a hard time finding churches in my community that do.That's what makes the calculations difficult. If you add up church contributions, it's a huge number, but how much of that is going to mansions for pastors at megachurches? How much is just heating an empty building? Bigger question, if not motivated by the fear of hell, will people come out in the same numbers to volunteer? On the other hand, people go to Haiti, sing, bring Bibles, pray and tour the area and then finally spend a few hours building something, hopefully that waste would be eliminated.
One thing many of the larger churches and most denominations do is send missionaries to other countries, this helps the relatively isolated people of the us understand and possibly sympathize with many different peoples and their problems, when I was much younger and the Kennedy’s peace corp. was much publicized I was hoping that this would be the non-believers answer to this. Unfortunately today you never even hear about it.Fortunately the Peace Corps is alive and well and still active in several countries. It's just not as well publicized as it was in the 60's. A friend and classmate of mine joined in 1969 and was sent to Africa to dig water wells in Niger. He did two years there and enjoyed the experience. Another friend joined the domestic version, VISTA and built houses on the Apache Reservation for two years. Both government sponsored programs had no ties to religious organizations that I know of and still don't. I have no idea why they were pushed out of the limelight but they would be a certainly be atractive service organizations for seculars. http://www.peacecorps.gov/ Cap't Jack
Not to sound ageist, but most churches look more like senior centers based on the demographics.
Also, a major component that I think may work against most traditional denominations is that there truly seems to be a lack of diversification within traditional churches. I think lack of diversity can also be a deterrent and seems more like a barrier to most communities. I really enjoy diversity and just think I would be uncomfortable even if I was a religious person.
Yes, and they're wrong. As long as there are humans there will be communities. It's just that theistic churches have cornered the market--until now. Community venues will change. I also think UU churches are in the forefront of the movement away from theistic churches as the only community centers. LoisOne hopes. Many of my discussions with atheists lately end when I start to connect religion to bad behavior. They insist that their organization does only good in the world. It is mostly an accident of history that the Catholic church ended up with so much power then passed along their skill of guilting people into giving them money on to the Protestants. There is obviously a strong urge to give but so many say they are doing God's work instead of simply what needs to be done. It's a little harder to get people to volunteer when you have to explain why it's needed. I hope that civic organizations will continue to grow and fill the void that churches are creating, but it's hard to predict. You wrote, "It is mostly an accident of history that the Catholic church ended up with so much power . . . That was no accident. Lois