Want to bet the kind of revisionism we see here already going on by Trump supporters is going to explode if he gets elected.
It’s how he and his movement are going to make America “great” again, by pretending that nothing negative was ever their responsibility. A sociopathic movement if ever there was one.
Want to bet the kind of revisionism we see here already going on by Trump supporters is going to explode if he gets elected. It's how he and his movement are going to make America "great" again, by pretending that nothing negative was ever their responsibility. A sociopathic movement if ever there was one.That's really broad, sweeping type language...with actually no substance. None. "pretending nothing negative was ever their responsibly" :lol: How do you even unpack that? That's so emotional and petulant. You don't even live in the US, you're a Canadian. Why are you worried? Why are you on here spreading fear about our highways? And Ford Motor Co. And our politics. Little hysterical are you? Frantic... :roll:
I would never get on a Forum like this or any other and presume to tell Canadians what I think of their systems or politics.
I would never start blathering about how Canada should run their country.
Or what I felt about Harper or Trudeau and any of their policies.
It’s not my place. It’s not my business.
I respect other nationality’s rights to come to their own national consensus.
Unless it starts to affect Canada, it’s none of your business what we do down here.
That's really broad, sweeping type language...with actually no substance. None. "pretending nothing negative was ever their responsibly" :lol: How do you even unpack that? That's so emotional and petulant. You don't even live in the US, you're a Canadian. Why are you worried? Why are you on here spreading fear about our highways? And Ford Motor Co. And our politics. Little hysterical are you? Frantic... :roll:As opposed to once again citing your opinions as some sort of authority. Come back on topic of what we're actually discussing here or I will put you on permanent ignore.
Do I really need to point out that taking a consistent anti-information position is ridiculous on a forum dedicated to inquiry. Opinions are meaningless without data to inform them, you just have to look at the Republican Party and its front runners to understand that.No, you need to show me the history of Tanks rolling out of Ford Plants in Germany like you claimed.
DougC-....with information systems that made the Holocaust possible and German tanks rolled out of factories built by Ford.Did you get this from the internet too? What we're you saying about anti-information? Well, okay V, I wasn't there, and yes I did use the internet to find the following information. It's a heck of a resource for digging up information, and if you take the time to cross check and use some critical thinking skills, it can be quite valuable. And there seems to be quite a bit of information on the topic. You too can look at it'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Germany The company was re-organised in 1939 and changed its name to Ford-Werke.[4] With the outbreak of the War, car production continued at first with the Taunus being made until 1942 but increasingly military production took over. Ford-Werke built trucks and armored personnel carriers for the German armed forces. The company also manufactured the V3000 V-8 truck series. Most notably, Ford-Werke manufactured the turbines used in the V-2 rockets.[9] In spite of the heavy bombing of Cologne, the factory got off relatively lightly and after the war production was able to restart in May 1945 with truck manufacture, the US government having paid $1.1 million in consideration of bombing damage.[4] Use of forced labor Main article: Forced labour under German rule during World War II During the Second World War, Ford Werke employed slave laborers although not required by the Nazi regime.[10] The deployment of slave labor began before the Ford-Werke was separated from the Ford Motor Company in Dearborn, Michigan, while America had not yet entered the War. Robert Schmidt presided over Ford-Werke during the Second World War, and engaged slave labor and the illegal manufacture of munitions, including such manufacturing during the period before the U.S. entry into the War. Once the War was over, "notwithstanding all his carefully publicized efforts to erase the stain of the company's past, no evidence emerged that either Henry Ford II or any other top-level Ford Motor Company executive ever raised any moral objects to rehiring [Robert Schmidt] who had presided over one of the company's darkest chapters.[11]
http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/chapter_06.htm Henry Ford: Hitler's First Foreign Backer On December 20, 1922 the New York Times reported4 that automobile manufacturer Henry Ford was financing Adolph Hitler's nationalist and anti-Semitic movements in Munich. Simultaneously, the Berlin newspaper Berliner Tageblatt appealed to the American Ambassador in Berlin to investigate and halt Henry Ford's intervention into German domestic affairs. It was reported that Hitler's foreign backers had furnished a "spacious headquarters" with a "host of highly paid lieutenants and officials." Henry Ford's portrait was prominently displayed on the walls of Hitler's personal office:… Henry Ford Receives a Nazi Medal A decade later, in August 1938 — after Hitler had achieved power with the aid of the cartels — Henry Ford received the Grand Cross of the German Eagle, a Nazi decoration for distinguished foreigners. The New York Times reported it was the first time the Grand Cross had been awarded in the United States and was to celebrate Henry Ford's 75th birthday.8 The decoration raised a storm of criticism within Zionist circles in the U.S. Ford backed off to the extent of publicly meeting with Rabbi Leo Franklin of Detroit to express his sympathy for the plight of German Jews: My acceptance of a medal from the German people [said Ford] does not, as some people seem to think, involve any sympathy on my part with naziism. Those who have known me for many years realize that anything that breeds hate is repulsive to me.9 The Nazi medal issue was picked up in a Cleveland speech by Secretary of Interior Harold Ickes. Ickes criticized both Henry Ford and Colonel Charles A. Lindbergh for accepting Nazi medals.
Interview: Ford's Anti-Semitism http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/interview/henryford-antisemitism/
Although there is a sort of apologetic in circulation RETHINKING THE FORD-NAZI CONNECTION by Stefan Link GHI DOCTORAL FELLOW IN INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS HISTORY / HARVARD UNIVERSITY http://www.ghi-dc.org/files/publications/bulletin/bu049/bu49_135.pdf "The purpose of this essay, then, is to provide some contextualizing evidence for the familiar stories of the Ford-Nazi connection and to embed them in contemporaneous, transnational contexts. "But, it seems he doesn't dispute the basic charges, simply putting them in a more favorable light. Although let's be clear he wasn't the only important American in bed with the Nazi - Profits Über Alles!
From Link's essay: But the Cross of the German Eagle also played a role in courting American economic partners of Nazi Germany in the 1930s. Only weeks after the award was created, Hjalmar Schacht pinned its second class (“cross with star") version on the chest of Thomas Watson, the chief executive of IBM, on the occasion of his visit to Berlin in June 1937. James D. Mooney, head of overseas operations at General Motors, received the award in August 1938. All in all, twenty-two American citizens received the award between 1937 and 1940. Among them were Ford’s general secretary Liebold and his friend, the Ger- man consul in Detroit Fritz Hailer, who was an American citizen of German heritage. Of all American recipients, only Ford was granted the highest rank, the “Grand Cross."41 ...I don't presume to know anything about the Ford Nazi beyond the obvious that there was a profitable one that can't be denied.
So, everybody is innocent? I don't buy it, Hitler didn't come from no where. He didn't lift himself by his own bootstraps. He was nurtured by power, money and industrialist, with their own agenda. I fear SP, that your kind of thinking is the sort of thing that created the Bush/Cheney Administration with their Iraq disaster - it's business, it's legal, let's make tons of money. And everyone is innocent in the end. And the blow back and cascading consequences are simply the price of doing business and someone else's fault.German tanks rolled out of factories built by Ford.I have not been able to find any info on line to confirm that specific assertion about tanks. It is fair to say Ford produced and profited from production of German military vehicles during WWII, but that is not the monstrous item it may appear to be at first reading. We (the USA) were latecomers to WWII, at least in terms of formal declarations of war. In 1939, 1940, and most of 1941 the USA was not at war with Germany and it was legal to operate manufacturing facilities in Germany. I don't think it is a scandal when a business does legal business.
I have not been able to find any info on line to confirm that specific assertion about tanks. It is fair to say Ford produced and profited from production of German military vehicles during WWII, but that is not the monstrous item it may appear to be at first reading. We (the USA) were latecomers to WWII, at least in terms of formal declarations of war. In 1939, 1940, and most of 1941 the USA was not at war with Germany and it was legal to operate manufacturing facilities in Germany. I don't think it is a scandal when a business does legal business. For example, I actively worked behind the Iron curtain doing business with communist dictatorship run operations. That sounds pretty bad. But the fact is that we operated under State Department license and we scrupulously adhered to restrictions clearly set out for us. That was government policy at that time so if somebody doesn't like it too bad, it was legal and above board. After 1941 Ford plants continued to be used for war vehicle production. That sounds bad, until you realize Ford executives in the USA were cut off from those plants. Not surprisingly the Nazis confiscated plants in Germany and occupied countries and turned them over to war production. That is not some kind of scandal against Ford. I just don't see what the controversy here is. A careful examination of the dates and laws and time sequence of events seems to me to show much ado about nothing.It's fair to say that Nazi Germany was made entirely possible by wealthy western industrialists and financiers. The reason why is obvious when you look a few nations to the east where the USSR used to exist. Like so many other failed attempts to arm and use extremists to further an agenda that further enriches the 1% this one had major blowback. Hitler and a re-militarized Germany were meant to be a bulwark against the spread of Soviet communism, only they turned out to be a bigger threat to peace and freedom than the Soviets who ended up having to fight most of the German military. All so the rich could stay that way and get richer, which is entirely topical to today. If you're looking for something more meaningful than trying to find out what factory produced what and who might have owned it, just google Prescott Bush, Union Bank, Fritz Thyssen and Adolph Hitler. Hitler and his extreme political movement were backed from the start by millions of dollars from wealthy in the west. It's pure fiction to claim that Nazism was some fringe movement that rose on its own in Germany, it was just one more case of astro-turfing that got away. Also Google IBM and the Holocaust or the role that GM and other companies played in making genocide possible. Like Kodak, Chase Bank, Nestle, Standard Oil, and Coca Cola. At some point it becomes completely dishonest to claim that the people who made the rebirth of German militarism possible bear no responsibility for how it was used. It becomes like Adolph Eichmann claiming he was just following orders.
Also Google IBM and the Holocaust or the role that GM and other companies played in making genocide possible. Like Kodak, Chase Bank, Nestle, Standard Oil, and Coca Cola.Did Nazi tanks roll off of Nestle's assembly lines too?
If you're looking for something more meaningful than trying to find out what factory produced what and who might have owned itSomething more meaningful? You have even more meaningful items? Whoa!! I thought you telling us that Nazi Tanks rolling off of Ford plants was meaningful.
just google Prescott Bush, Union Bank, Fritz Thyssen and Adolph Hitler. Hitler and his extreme political movement were backed from the start by millions of dollars from wealthy in the west. It's pure fiction to claim that Nazism was some fringe movement that rose on its own in Germany, it was just one more case of astro-turfing that got away.Oh yeah the World Bankers were probably really interested in dealing with an Olympics Hosting Nation, that had their leader as Time's Man of The Year and was a shining example of economic recovery after the depression and was ripe for investment. All this from the Twenties into the Late Thirties. But yes what was covered up I'm sure is the secret meetings with Hitler and Nestles and Union Bank on how he was going to start WW2 and gas millions of people. italics is sarcasm.
At some point it becomes completely dishonest to claim that the people who made the rebirth of German militarism possible bear no responsibility for how it was used. It becomes like Adolph Eichmann claiming he was just following orders.At some point it become so boring to have to listen to CT people like yourself who are wound up too tight.
VYAZMA I see you got plenty of avoidance, ridicule, sarcasm and simplistic dismissal to share.
Gotta love the right wing approach to debate.
Hitler was a swell guy, and the businessmen of the world loved him.
Although all you would have had to do was read his bio book to understand you were signing a pact with the devil.
Oh but look what he was doing for the economy, yippy. Hitler was such a great guy,
I can well imagine you jumping on his bandwagon early and getting rather ferocious with your enthusiasm.
They don’t call it a slippery sliddy slope for nothing.
Your apparent adoration of Trump seems in character.
italics is sarcasm.From what I've seen of your posts it's all sarcasm...
Oh yeah the World Bankers were probably really interested in dealing with an Olympics Hosting Nation, that had their leader as Time's Man of The Year and was a shining example of economic recovery after the depression and was ripe for investment. All this from the Twenties into the Late Thirties. But yes what was covered up I'm sure is the secret meetings with Hitler and Nestles and Union Bank on how he was going to start WW2 and gas millions of people.You completely missed the point again either intentionally or not doesn't matter. Hitler never would have gotten to the point of being Chancellor of Germany if not for the millions of dollars being made available to him for years before he was elected, by people like Fritz Thyssen and those who worked with him abroad like the Harrimans and Bushs and Union Bank. Germany never would have been able to re-industrialize and re-militarize without the millions of dollars made available by rich investors from across the western world. The terms of the Treaty of Versailles bankrupted the country and basically set the stage for WW II. I believe if you look closely you'll also see there was a Harriman working hard on that idiotic "Treaty". As Ferdinand Foch said at the time, "This is not a peace. It is an armistice for twenty years". Like we see constantly now, the wealthy and powerful work behind the scenes in their interests and we pay the price, Nazi Germany was no different. Your critical thinking skills seem to be non-existent... you also seem to admire more than one fascist.
Hitler never would have gotten to the point of being Chancellor of Germany if not for the millions of dollars being made available to him for years before he was elected,...Your lack of basic historical understanding is glaringly obvious. If you think I'm going to humor you with a history lesson or a back and forth on these "heavy" topics you're sadly mistaken. I know you're itching to wax "intelligently" on them. Your grasp on history as a study of movement and time is non-existent. I've only pointed out your Ford/Tanks model as a sufficient exposure of your ignorance. (which, by the way, I didn't need to research. I didn't have to check that online. I already knew that from study) A blatant falsification that you either concocted or copied down from some source of yours. In the realm of history there is only one timeline, one history. Facts. And although I have found numerous errors and falsifications in your diatribe, as well as just ignorance of spacial references and timelines, I definitely will not point them out. I wouldn't waste my time going down to your level of understanding. But please, continue to regale the 3 Penny Opera with your discourse. They'll eat it.
Hitler never would have gotten to the point of being Chancellor of Germany if not for the millions of dollars being made available to him for years before he was elected,...Your lack of basic historical understanding is glaringly obvious. Okay Vyazma, this is where you are supposed to add some serious information. Or is handwaving and insults all you have up your sleeve, er, in your head?
Ok, so more than 1 out of 1000 bridges fall down? Tell me, how many bridges did you drive over in say, the last year? I you had a .1% chance of having a bridge collapse when you drive over it you would stop driving altogether. Lightning kills people too. Once and again an airplane will land on the freeway and kill somebody. Scare mongering sells advertising space. I am not so gullible as to sit around wringing my hands over it. As for you hitting potholes every day on the interstate, that is just plain bullshit, peddle it someplace where you can make some money off it cause it is a nonstarter for anybody who has actually driven hundreds of thousands of miles on the USA interstate highway system. Potholes on your interstate drive every day, what a load of garbage. If you say you hit a pothole every day on I64 I say you are a liar.Just a final jab before I turn my back on your glaring ignorance of our crumbling infrastructure. Driving over bridges, which I do constantly doesn't mean that they aren't in need of constant inspection and repair. Obviously you didn't read the sources I posted, nor did you seem to want to because your baseless rants show you would rather cling to your opinions rather than examine the facts. As to your reaction to my factual statement that I'm constantly driving over potholes, I really don't give a kitty what you think, it's what I have to deal with on a daily basis. And yes my well traveled friend, there are potholes on interstate 64. I've also traveled several interstates AND State roads and found potholes on most of them, including I 95. I would like to counter your claim that I'm a liar and say you're an opinionated idiot but I won't jump in the mud hole with you. Cap't Jack
Driving over bridges, which I do constantly doesn’t mean that they aren’t in need of constant inspection and repair.So? My car needs inspection and repair. My body needs inspection and repair. Everything wears out and breaks eventually.
Obviously you didn’t read the sources I posted, nor did you seem to want to because your baseless rants show you would rather cling to your opinions rather than examine the facts.On the contrary, I did read them and they amounted to little more than alarmist tabloid nonsense published by people who profit or maintain their budgets by spreading alarmist foolishness. When studies cite percentages higher than 50% in regions I know for a fact are nearly pristine I know that the statistics are bogus. As for bridges your alarmist sources must have some very trivial standards for the term "structurally deficient", most likely a little rust or a single loose fastener, else there would be news reports of multiple collapsed bridges every day based on the absurdly inflated statistics cited. It is you who did not read your own sources, at least with any significant critical thinking skills applied at the time of the reading.
" I’m constantly driving over potholes, ... there are potholes on interstate 64. ... I would like to counter your claim that I’m a liar .I made a very specific claim with respect to your voracity. *"If you say you hit a pothole every day on I64 I say you are a liar."* You have not answered that specific conditional. Do you hit a pothole every day on the I64? Simple question, do you or do you not? A pothole is a "deep, round hole in a road". You know a pothole by the big slamming sound your tire makes and the impact feel of the car. Potholes sometimes cause blowouts or other tire damage. Do you or do you not hit such road surface defects every day you drive on the I64?
Hitler never would have gotten to the point of being Chancellor of Germany if not for the millions of dollars being made available to him for years before he was elected,...Your lack of basic historical understanding is glaringly obvious. If you think I'm going to humor you with a history lesson or a back and forth on these "heavy" topics you're sadly mistaken. I know you're itching to wax "intelligently" on them. Which is basically admitting you don't have a factual leg to stand on and only really have a resort to ad hominem to add to this or any discussion here.
Your grasp on history as a study of movement and time is non-existent. I've only pointed out your Ford/Tanks model as a sufficient exposure of your ignorance.And I've pointing out that reducing the argument to what factory produced what is reducing the discussion to meaninglessness, the salient fact here is that millions of dollars were made available to Hitler and the Nazi movement from the start to even allow them to gain access to power. Once that happened millions more dollars were made available to a bankrupt Nazi Germany from across the west to enable it to rebuild its industrial base and war production capacity even while Hitler was violating the terms that ended the last devastating European conflict. In the case of Prescott Bush and the New York based Union Bank, it required the US government to seize its assets in 1942 to stop it from profiting from the war created by Nazi Germany.
(which, by the way, I didn't need to research. I didn't have to check that online. I already knew that from study) A blatant falsification that you either concocted or copied down from some source of yours. In the realm of history there is only one timeline, one history. Facts. And although I have found numerous errors and falsifications in your diatribe, as well as just ignorance of spacial references and timelines, I definitely will not point them out.Great then post some sources, the voices in your head really don't qualify and so far I think that's all we're really being presented with by you. You complain consistently when anyone presents sources that contradict your claims but you present nothing in return.
I wouldn't waste my time going down to your level of understanding. But please, continue to regale the 3 Penny Opera with your discourse. They'll eat it.And what level would that be, where you constantly assert things with no factual basis and make endless ad hominem as substitution for actual discussion. Being as unpleasant as you can be without being overtly abusive may make some people withdraw from the debate, it doesn't make you correct and it certainly isn't respectful of the process of inquiry. It's a rejection of that. So what it basically comes down to is put up or shut up, show that corporations and individuals across the western world didn't support Hitler and the Nazis enabling a second world war. Including Henry Ford, Prescott Bush, IBM, GM and many others.
And I've pointing out that reducing the argument to what factory produced what is reducing the discussion to meaninglessness..You reduced your original statement to a false assertion about factories. That isn't meaningless. Most readers of history discount essayists or bloggers who engage in sensationalism and revisionism. If you told one lie then god only knows what else you have bought into or are trying to propagate. You since haven't been able to show that Ford plants produced tanks for the Nazis. Now you're saying that facts don't matter as long as people get the general idea of the conspiracy.
...the salient fact here is that millions of dollars were made available to Hitler and the Nazi movement from the start to even allow them to gain access to power. Once that happened...it required the US government to seize its assets in 1942 to stop it from profiting from the war created by Nazi Germany.I told you you were itching to wax "intelligently" about these heady affairs. They are heady affairs aren't they DougC?
And what level would that be, where you constantly assert things with no factual basis...What did I assert? That Ford Factories in Germany didn't produce tanks? Yup! And I'm right. What else did I assert?
And I've pointing out that reducing the argument to what factory produced what is reducing the discussion to meaninglessness..You reduced your original statement to a false assertion about factories. That isn't meaningless. Most readers of history discount essayists or bloggers who engage in sensationalism and revisionism. If you told one lie then god only knows what else you have bought into or are trying to propagate. You since haven't been able to show that Ford plants produced tanks for the Nazis. Now you're saying that facts don't matter as long as people get the general idea of the conspiracy. That's according to your highly biased opinion, nothing that you've been able to clearly demonstrate. The fact remains that Germany was in a shambles due to the effects of the punishing Treaty of Versailles and the Great Depression. It was only through the intervention and vast investment of companies like Ford that Hitler was able to rebuild his military, much of which was put to use providing all the equipment and munitions needed to enable a second world war. If as the article I posted above states, GM and Ford had the majority of the automotive production before the war which was retooled to meet the needs of the German armed forces in WW II, then how is that inconsistent with what I posted? Just what do think they were producing and what did the factories owned by the same companies produce when they retooled to meet the needs of the Allied armed forces in WW II. Tanks, SPGs, armored personnel carriers, heavy trucks and more, yet somehow in your mind what rolled out of Ford factories in Germany retooled for a war started by Hitler was somehow benign. Ridiculous.
...the salient fact here is that millions of dollars were made available to Hitler and the Nazi movement from the start to even allow them to gain access to power. Once that happened...it required the US government to seize its assets in 1942 to stop it from profiting from the war created by Nazi Germany. I told you you were itching to wax "intelligently" about these heady affairs. They are heady affairs aren't they DougC?And as I've stated your sarcasm and ad hominem are meaningless in a rational discussion, by avoiding once again providing anything but your thinly veiled contempt for others and anything that they present that doesn't concisely conform to how you want to see things all you really communicate here is an unwillingness to engage in rational discussion. The fact that you simply refuse to rebut with anything but ad hominem is a clear indication that is in fact all that you have to support your opinions. And as I'm not interested in endless circular discussion that goes nowhere because that is the obvious intent, then I'm simply not going to bother.