Discussion: Philosophy an Art form rather than science

Humanism
41

Yes, but you are NOT talking about that either. You are merely asking the “hard questions” about a transcendent awareness without even knowing how to formulate the question. But that enters the domain of subjective speculation.

OTOH, I am a (metaphysical) realist and I go by “hard facts” that have been demonstrated to be mathematically consistent.

You can complain about the confidence level about certain sciences, but as one of the Rover technicians observed " we don’t have to do it just right, we only have to do it just right enough".

This is how they landed Rover on Mars, not by doing it perfectly right , but by doing it just right enough. (They took parts of universal laws and used them for practical application).

My point is that even as we do not exactly know how quantum works, all our quantum theories are usable in practice. The transcendental stuff is subjective at best.

42

That may be right, I’m no learned writer.

I have identified the problem,

The Abrahamic ego-centric mentality (blinders) through which we perceive the physical reality around us.

and I have formulated the answer:

“Appreciating the Human Mindscape ~ Physical Reality divide”

I’ll keep working on the rest as I can.

I’m not trying to be snarky, but when you can say stuff like this,

I’m led to imagine you don’t really know what your point is.

43

Do you believe the brain is capable of multitasking?

Do you know this has been tested ?

The only multitasking the brain can do is separated by exteroception (conscious external data processing) and interoception ( internal homeostatic control) . It is called “selective attention”

Try this little test.

44

Is that all?

You see I’m approaching this from a Physical Reality perspective, and when I stop to think of all the tasks my mind and body need to be engaged in (nonstop), for me to function properly, and negotiate my day to day, I can’t imagine uttering such a glib dismissal of the body’s capabilities.

Even consciousness happens on different levels. It’s not the simplistic on/off that this experiment implies.

45

[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:44, topic:8988”]
Is that all?
You see I’m approaching this from a Physical Reality perspective, and when I stop to think of all the tasks my mind and body need to be engaged in (nonstop), for me to function properly, and negotiate my day to day, I can’t imagine uttering such a glib dismissal of the body’s capabilities.

First, interoception does not require attention, it is a subconscious control system that actually keeps your body’s electrochemistry in balance. It does not require our focused attention.

Second, our perception of reality is of necessity limited. Consider the enormous amount of data that constitutes reality. It is impossible to perceive and process it all, let alone at the same time.
We filter our observations of reality .

Have you ever been annoyed when you are deeply engaged in a task and someone interrupts your concentration?

When we consciously focus attention on a specific phenomenon, we automatically begin to filter out all irrelevant data and apply “selective attention”

Below is a list of processes that the mind employs when focusing on a specific collection of relevant data.

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p.s. did you watch the ball players clip? How did you do?

46

Once one sees it, one can’t unsee it.

You’re acting as though I’m unfamiliar with it, or the information you’re sharing. Nor am I dismissing it.
But it’s not like a V8 engine where ones you’ve laid out all the parts to it, that’s it, nothing more to learn. This thing called our brain is way more complex, and there are nooks and crannies and processes and unexpected surprises going on that we still haven’t fully dissected.

Also you’re making another error. You’re answers are limited by the quality of your questions.
You’re sharing videos with me where serious scientists are using human optical illusions as a springboard to discuss the reality of physical reality itself - it’s ludicrous, as I previously pointed out, yet you act fully confident that those same scientists know all there is to know about consciousness. I don’t see it, I don’t buy it.

No magic or woo about it, there’s much evidence yet to be fully untangled - not to be expecting some further shocks and surprises seems, so, so, well, seems so arrogantly human-centric, in the proud tradition of Abraham.

Heck look at the label of that bottom poster: “This seminar is about how cognition (especially visual perception) connects with the world.” So there are other levels of cognition other than visual, go figure.

47

[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:46, topic:8988”]
You’re sharing videos with me where serious scientists are using human optical illusions as a springboard to discuss the reality of physical reality itself - it’s ludicrous, as I previously pointed out, yet you act fully confident that those same scientists know all there is to know about consciousness. I don’t see it, I don’t buy it.

No, these scientists use optical illusions as a springboard to discuss how the brain interprets reality. It is the part of consciousness that deals with survival.

Reality is relative to the subjective POV of the observer and evolution has modified the brain to be able to focus on a single object and filter out superfluous data that just tends to clutter analysis of the observed object or action.

Perhaps a parallel may be found in photography where the observer has options to select a wide-angle lens , a telephoto lens, or a macro lens, each lens offering a relatively selective inspection of reality.

No magic or woo about it, there’s much evidence yet to be fully untangled - not to be expecting some further shocks and surprises seems, so, so, well, seems so arrogantly human-centric, in the proud tradition of Abraham.

I agree with you completely as to the limitation of human knowledge of the universe.
OTOH, it is presumptuous to accuse scientists of being arrogantly ego-centric. We know a lot!!! We just don’t know everything!

Heck look at the label of that bottom poster: “This seminar is about how cognition (especially visual perception) connects with the world.” So there are other levels of cognition other than visual, go figure .

This is a perfect example of filtering extraneous levels of cognition.
The optical abilities in moving organisms is the most important. You want to see where you’re going or know where you have been.

Any discussion about sensory abilities should start with optics. It allows us to visually observe reality to begin with.

Consider that the mirror neural network is a result made possible from observing body language. The mirror neural network is responsible for empathy and cognition of intent or emotional stress.
It allows us to “relate”.
IMO the capability to feel empathy is one of humanity’s greatest assets.

48

Nope, you’re too into the weeds, in order to avoid my central point.
I need to save your above comment for another time.

But the following did come to me as I was walking Maddy this morning.

Perhaps it might help get this back on track.

Here we have another example of blinders Abrahamic egocentrism shackles today intellect (school of thought) with.

I’m resolutely told: “The brain (mind) Can’t Multitask.”

I’m presented with a specific example and a conclusion, then comes a generalized rule for all conscious processes?

The complexity of our “conscious, unconscious, and in-between” is never clearly defined. Still in a binary world, binary summaries are required.

I’m thinking, but, we haven’t even taken a moment to stand back to appreciate how vast, layered and interwoven our senses are, let alone our “consciousness” (conscious, unconscious, and in-between).

Try to list the different levels and characters of your body keeping track of its insides, then think of the constantly fluctuating situation outside that body that also needs to be tracked, the unimaginably complexity of the nonstop flow of input of information from all over, always changing, needing to be processed, with appropriate commands issued, and tracked.

But you tell me the brain can’t multi-task?

I’m thinking, lordie, lord, multi-tasking successfully is the brain’s main function.

But our intellect expects a miracle machine?

And if you can’t even make room for that, what good are all these bold assertions, that always evolve with time anyways.

49

It has been proven. Are you going to dismiss scientificically tested and confirmed findings?

Do you believe that you are the only one understanding Abrahamic ego-centric perspectives? Is that not the very example you talking about?
When I read something unusual I always do further research as to why that should be so. When the theory is based on solid research and independent testing, I don’t feel qualified to dismiss the science and I’ll accept it as true, until someone comes along a nd Proves it is not true.

Can you prove it is not true? Evidence?

50

Who says so? We all know that what we observe is subjective and relative to the point of observation.

OTOH, maths don’t lie. Mathematical proofs are reliable because they are repeatable and consistent. All beliefs based on mathematical proofs must be true. If not, then science is useless and magic rules the world.

51

It’s reflected in word and deed.

Heck consider how easily you ran right past what I wrote about levels of consciousness and the complex information streams the brain needs to process in order to be reflected in our minds.
It speaks for itself.

There’s a difference between post card understanding and absorbing the essence of the lesson.

52

Wait a minute, let’s rewind the tape of this discussion.

Long ago, I have clearly established a chronology of interstellar formation of biochemical molecules, the abiogenetic evolution of biochemicals into living organisms on earth, the evolving sensory complexity in living organisms via natural selection of advantageous survival traits, starting with the ability of single-celled organisms being able to swim via cilia and navigate around obstacles encountered in their environment.

This internal data processing is a function of the cytoskeleton and cytoplasm that transport electrochemical data inside the cell and in multicelled organisms, from cell to cell. This process needs no neurons but is facilitated by microtubules and related filaments.

As organisms became larger and more complex data needed to be transported over longer distances and neurons made their appearance on the scene where microtubules, protected by a shield started forming axons between neurons in different parts of the entire organism. Neurons can be several feet in length and gradually organized into an entire data transport network consisting of billions of neurons connected by trillions of microtubules and their synaptic connections.

I explained how the human brain itself is a result of a major beneficial fusion of two ancestral chromosomes allowing for increased brain growth and complexity. Humans are the only hominid with 23 pr chromosomes instead of the 24 chromosomes retained by all other great apes.

I won’t repeat every evolutionary step from abiogenesis (Hazen) to photosynthesis (plants), to kinetic physical response mechanics, to quorum sensing communication in bacteria, to the evolution of the eye from a light-sensitive chemical patch to an eagle’s eye that can spot a mouse from a mile high, to the emergent and increasing conscious self-awareness of modern species, to the specialization of certain sensory abilities like detecting infrared by insects, the directional dance with instructions where to find food by honey bees and the evolving ability for abstract thought in humans by a remarkable organ able to process trillions of bits of electrochemical data transmitted by the senses.

While you were talking about the mind-scape I was explaining the evolution of the mind-scape.
And you talk to me about Abrahamic mindset and how I am dismissing your deep insight into the metaphysical nature of nature.

You know that my metaphysical identification lies in the mathematical (logical) nature of the universe.

Do I sound that simplistic? Instead of making vague accusations, tell me where exactly I am missing the point of evolutionary processes or of a metaphysical perspective on nature other than some supernatural creator agency.

And what exactly is a mind-scape other than a construct of the mind?

53

Actually brains are biological computers in that its only function consists of processing and interpreting data, be it from the exterior physical world or the internal organs.
Except for its connection to the body via the neural network and spinal chord the brain itself is isolated and immobile and does not do anything other than “think” (process data) and transmit electrochemical data responses to the rest of the body.

That is the definition of computing. The computing language and algorithm (if any) is secondary to the basic function.

I was talkin about selective attention and provided a serious experiment proving that when the brain focuses intently on a specific even, it filters out irrelevant and distracting influences.

This is a long standing medical fact. When we speak of data entering the senses the volume of electromagnetic waves entering the senses are not measurable. The senses and brain are limited in ability to receive and process everything. That is just impossible.

The data entering from a single subject already has uncountable numbers. Filters are essential in making sense of a single aspect of reality.

54

In order to do that, you would need leave all your self defensiveness behind,
and focus on the central issue

the problem of Abrahamic Ego-centrism and its long history of misinterpretation of facts.

And that brings me to our general failure to

appreciating the Human Mindscape ~ Physical Reality divide
which has immense cascading consequences.

It’s not the facts you’ve sharing, its your over-extended interpretations.

Of course, it’s a problem considering how we disregard and destroy the very life support system from under our feet. I mean, that’s insane, but here we are, we still can’t figure out that how we interact with our environments (great and small) is everything (so to speak).

write4u, you say the brain can’t multi-task? How can we continue this conversation if you can’t even recognize the folly in such a simplistic claim?

55

I am not making that claim . Neurologists who have studied brain function are making that claim. I am sure they did not just skip over that important detail.

Human Multitasking

However, the study also suggests that the brain is incapable of performing multiple tasks at one time, even after extensive training.

This study further indicates that, while the brain can become adept at processing and responding to certain information, it cannot truly multitask.

This is the consequence of consciousness. Consciousness demands full attention rather than brute processing power of that under consideration. To consciously understand something requires full attention and an internal search of the memory for pertinent information that confirms your brain’s initial “best guess”.

Consciousness requires "selective attention"

A computer doesn’t stop to consider the data it is processing. It doesn’t need to understand . Humans do and sometimes understanding takes sober reflection to the exclusion of all other trivia.

56

The tunnel vision is flabbergasting.

Human cognition may be limited, with multitasking (which is actually poorly defined), said to be from difficult to impossible, (also poorly defined).

Is your brain limited to upper cognitive functions?

Is your brain constantly monitoring a myriad of inputs dealing with a huge spectrum of dynamics, from the interior body to the outside environment, to mental thoughts - nonstop, even when you’re in deepest sleep, there’s still a lot of housekeeping going on.

Why is all that so easily dismissed as irrelevant or outside of this discussion. It cut right to the heart of what I’m saying. But you’ll respond with another few studies that totally side step the point I’m trying to make.

You act as though you believe reality is limited to what people have published and how they have chosen to discuss and sex up their topic to make it sell copy.

57

No, I merely propose that people have a limited view of reality.
The slice of reality that is accessible to human observation is a sliver compared to the entire spectrum.

Just look at this:

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The entire electromagnetic spectrum is much more than just visible light. It encompasses of range of wavelengths of energy that our human eyes can’t see. Image via NASA/Wikipedia.

But light doesn’t stop at red or violet. Just like there are sounds we can’t hear (but other animals can), there is also an enormous range of light that our eyes can’t detect. In general, the longer wavelengths come from the coolest and darkest regions of space. Meanwhile, the shorter wavelengths measure extremely energetic phenomena.

And you claim that we have deep insight into reality?

We have great imagination, I’ll give you that. But in the greater scope of things, the existence of humans in this universe is no more important than a bug.

Contrary to most species that keep evolving in a positive direction, humans may even be destined to cause their own extinction. We’re making a pretty good effort in that direction.

58

Where does that diversion come from?

Is that why we’re able to define the unaccessible range so well?

Where did you get that? I was claiming we trap ourselves within our Human Mindscapes too easily and wind up unable to accept that Physical Reality is A GIVEN totally independent from our self-glorifying self-obsessed EGO driven cognition.

59

Interoception does not require conscious attention. It is an autonomous (level 2) electrochemical control mechanism that is active even when we are unconscious.

When we are asleep and dream, do you call that awareness of reality? Dreaming is the result of “uncontrolled hallucinations”, a result of unfocused thought processes (multitasking).

As soon as we exercise “controlled hallucinations” we must become selective in our attention span.

CC, we’re not talking about physical processes here. We are talking about mental processes that require “full focused attention”.

Even schizophrenic persons cannot be both personalities at the same time. Their personalities may alternate but only in chronological order, never at the same time.

The brain is unable to multitask different conscious thought processes at the same time. It can only do multitasking in chronological orders. One thing at the time.

What is so difficult to understand about this ? Attention requires exclusion of all other interferences.

What is attention in psychology?

attention, in psychology, the concentration of awareness on some phenomenon to the exclusion of other stimuli . … Attention has to do with the immediate experience of the individual; it is a state of current awareness.

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autonomic nervous system

Schematic representation of the autonomic nervous system, showing distribution of sympathetic and parasympathetic nerves to the head, trunk, and limbs.

60

I’m not sure how this fits your narrative. I don’t see x-rays, but I observe all the things we do with them, and even without that, they can still give me cancer, something my body knows is happening, long before my frontal lobe is contemplating it.

I breath, eat, digest, sometimes while walking, while I hear all of it. How is that not multitasking? You are picking some things that can’t be done simultaneously and extrapolating that to some larger significance.

BTW, I’ve written code that kicks off multiple threads. It doesn’t always go well.