I'd like to point out that the book, Shot in the Heart, is not a screed against the death penalty. It is a well-written and affecting story about the lives of these two brothers and what drove one to murder. LoisSorry Lois. I should have read something about the book before commenting. It looks like I have inadvertently hijacked your thread Not at all. It was on topic. Lois
Nobody is better off having a killer dead than locked up in prison, certainly not the victim's loved ones. Killing a killer simply puts him out of his misery, quickly and relatively efficiently. He is let off of his punishment and the US looks like the barbaric country it is. Check out the lovely company we keep with other countries that still have the death penalty. LoisI am not really sure about that Lois. Maybe I am a barbarian but if my wife,sister or daughter was killed in the way this man killed that girl I would feel much better watching him die and knowing he would never again breath the same air as the rest of us or have any chance of escaping from jail to hurt someone else however remote that risk might be. Imagine the horror that woman went through. If she were someone you cared about would you want the monster who did that to continue to live? I suppose each of us would feel different but I'm not sure its fair to invalidate those feelings just because they may amount to nothing more than revenge. There comes a point where a being is no longer human and truly is a monster. Those occasions may be rare and we have to be extremely careful about crossing that line but I really believe there is such a line.
In case you didn’t look up the sterling countries where the death penalty is still carried out.
I guess other countries, such as all of northern Europe, are faced with killers in their midst looking for their next victims. The US is missing from the 2012 statistics only because we didn’t carry out any executions that year. Meanwhile there are 3,125 prisoners sitting on death row waiting for the executioner’s knell.
Lois
2010
The following 22 countries are believed by Amnesty International to have carried out executions in 2010: Bahrain (1), Bangladesh (9+), Belarus (2), Botswana (1), China (2000+), Egypt (4), Equatorial Guinea (4), Iran (252+), Iraq (1+), Japan (2), Libya (18+), Malaysia (1+), North Korea (60+), Republic of China (4),Saudi Arabia (27+), Singapore (0+), Somalia (8+), Sudan (6+), Syria (17+), USA (46), Vietnam (0+), Yemen (53+).[2]
2011
The following 19 countries are believed by Amnesty International to have carried out executions in 2011: Afghanistan (2), Bangladesh (5+), Belarus (2), China (2000+), Egypt (1+), Iran (360+), Iraq (68+), Malaysia (1+), North Korea (30+), Republic of China (5) Saudi Arabia (82+), Somalia (10), South Sudan (5), Sudan (7+), Syria (1+), UAE (1), USA (43), Vietnam (1+), Yemen (41+).[3]
2012
The following 21 countries are believed by Amnesty International to have carried out executions in 2012: Afghanistan (14), Bangladesh (1), Belarus (3+), China (2000+), Gambia (9), India (1), Iran (314+), Iraq (129+), Japan (7), North Korea (6+), Pakistan (1), Palestine (6), Republic of China (6), Saudi Arabia (79+), Somalia (6+), South Sudan (5+), Sudan (19+), UAE (1), USA (43), Yemen (28+).[4]
A new study estimated that no less than four percent of the approximately 3,000 US prisoners waiting to be put to death are in fact innocent of the crimes they committed, a shocking number that is far less than the inmates who are freed before execution.
Researchers and legal experts from Pennsylvania, Michigan, and elsewhere around the country came together to examine the so-called “dark figure" that underscores the death penalty debate: how many of the people sentenced to die for their crime are actually innocent?
The result, a peer-reviewed analysis published by the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States, is described as a “deliberately conservative" number which makes clear that wrongful convictions are not as uncommon as many would like to believe.
One of my correspondents asked,
The AMA’s code of ethics explicitly prohibits a doctor’s participation in any way in an execution.
So who are the doctors who participate?
Any idea, MacGyver?
Lois
Nobody is better off having a killer dead than locked up in prison, certainly not the victim's loved ones. Killing a killer simply puts him out of his misery, quickly and relatively efficiently. He is let off of his punishment and the US looks like the barbaric country it is. Check out the lovely company we keep with other countries that still have the death penalty. LoisI am not really sure about that Lois. Maybe I am a barbarian but if my wife,sister or daughter was killed in the way this man killed that girl I would feel much better watching him die and knowing he would never again breath the same air as the rest of us or have any chance of escaping from jail to hurt someone else however remote that risk might be. Imagine the horror that woman went through. If she were someone you cared about would you want the monster who did that to continue to live? I suppose each of us would feel different but I'm not sure its fair to invalidate those feelings just because they may amount to nothing more than revenge. There comes a point where a being is no longer human and truly is a monster. Those occasions may be rare and we have to be extremely careful about crossing that line but I really believe there is such a line. There is too much margin of error for any country to be carrying out the death penalty. Besides the margin of error, there is racism, corruption and lack of funds for a charged person to put on an effective defense. You may feel better if someone who killed your loved one were to be executed, but would you be willing to carry out the execution yourself, face to face, without the sterility of an execution chamber where a human being is strapped to a gurney? Could you look into his frightened eyes before you kill him? Would his death bring back your loved one? Would his death do anything to assuage your grief? Would you want his blood on your hands? Could you look into a mirror after you kill him--after demonstrating to yourself and your loved ones that you are no better than he was? Lois
Doctors and execution. It depends on the state, but generally doctors are forbidden from participating except to confirm the prisoner is in fact dead.
One of my correspondents asked, The AMA's code of ethics explicitly prohibits a doctor's participation in any way in an execution. So who are the doctors who participate? Any idea, MacGyver? LoisI am nearly certain they are not physicians. I believe they are non-medical people trained to administer the drugs according to a pre-written protocol. It doesn't really take a lot of skill to insert an IV and press a few buttons. To be honest though I am not sure who trained the person. It would be just as unethical for any physician to teach another person how to do the execution as it wold be for them to do it themselves.
There’s no alternative? First, the Feds just played around with giving clemency to thousands of imprisoned small time drug dealers. There’s people doing hard time for possessing ounces of marijuana for example. Second, only 6-8 states execute people in the US anymore. The total number of executed people in the whole US is less than 45 people each year for the past 4 years. The number being paroled each year is far more than that.I'm not talking about the small timers Vy and BTW, I'm all for the decriminalization of marijuana. I mentioned that in my post. I'm talking about the psychopaths whom we will NEVER release. And if we never release them they will require loooong term care, a lifetime IOW. And no, I'm not implying that we should use the Russian method of shooting them in the back of the head. My point was that barring execution, more prisons will have to be built to warehouse the long timers who will never be released back into society, e.g. Charlie Manson. Cap't Jack
There is too much margin of error for any country to be carrying out the death penalty. Besides the margin of error, there is racism, corruption and lack of funds for a charged person to put on an effective defense. You may feel better if someone who killed your loved one were to be executed, but would you be willing to carry out the execution yourself, face to face, without the sterility of an execution chamber where a human being is strapped to a gurney? Could you look into his frightened eyes before you kill him? Would his death bring back your loved one? Would his death do anything to assuage your grief? Would you want his blood on your hands? Could you look into a mirror after you kill him? LoisI agree with some of your points and obviously there is no sharp demarcation between cases where the facts are ambiguous and those where there is absolutely no doubt about the guilt and motive of the murderer but that doesn't negate the fact that such cases exist where the case is air tight and the crime is so heinous that I personally believe the death penalty would be justifiable. I understand your question about the way we have sanitized the process of executing someone. Perhaps it makes everyone feel better that the criminal doesn't feel pain or bleed and that numbs us to what is being done. Obviously no one knows for sure what they would do if they were in that situation and I have spent my life saving lives not taking them but while I hate to admit it, if someone did to one of my loved ones what this guy did to that girl I honestly believe I could flip the switch or if necessary pull the trigger that ended his life. You didn't answer my question though. Would you want him to go on living if that was your loved one he killed? If that was your daughter or sister and he had killed her that way would you be able to stand in court and beg the judge to save him from the death penalty? This is a difficult question. The death penalty and its implementation is deeply flawed but I have a hard time saying there aren't some cases where it may be justified.
For any Werner Herzog fans out there he has a couple of great films on Capital Punishment.
In one he interviews the Prison Guard who was the Head Executioner in Texas.
He broke down on the job and couldn’t do it anymore after he executed that woman who killed all of her kids.
He had a couple of hundred executions under his belt before that.
You can hear his tale right from the horses mouth. He is strongly opposed to the death penalty now.
He knows it’s wrong. And he did them!!
I really admired the man in the film. Very moving.
By his account, the state of Texas let him go without his pension after over 20 years or so of service because of his “disability”.
Great films by Herzog. “Into the Abyss” is one of them. I can’t recall the other off-hand.
There is too much margin of error for any country to be carrying out the death penalty. Besides the margin of error, there is racism, corruption and lack of funds for a charged person to put on an effective defense. You may feel better if someone who killed your loved one were to be executed, but would you be willing to carry out the execution yourself, face to face, without the sterility of an execution chamber where a human being is strapped to a gurney? Could you look into his frightened eyes before you kill him? Would his death bring back your loved one? Would his death do anything to assuage your grief? Would you want his blood on your hands? Could you look into a mirror after you kill him? LoisI agree with some of your points and obviously there is no sharp demarcation between cases where the facts are ambiguous and those where there is absolutely no doubt about the guilt and motive of the murderer but that doesn't negate the fact that such cases exist where the case is air tight and the crime is so heinous that I personally believe the death penalty would be justifiable. I understand your question about the way we have sanitized the process of executing someone. Perhaps it makes everyone feel better that the criminal doesn't feel pain or bleed and that numbs us to what is being done. Obviously no one knows for sure what they would do if they were in that situation and I have spent my life saving lives not taking them but while I hate to admit it, if someone did to one of my loved ones what this guy did to that girl I honestly believe I could flip the switch or if necessary pull the trigger that ended his life. You didn't answer my question though. Would you want him to go on living if that was your loved one he killed? If that was your daughter or sister and he had killed her that way would you be able to stand in court and beg the judge to save him from the death penalty? This is a difficult question. The death penalty and its implementation is deeply flawed but I have a hard time saying there aren't some cases where it may be justified. I think I would be able to see a killer of my loved one stay alive if he was locked up for life. Of course, nobody can be sure of his or her reaction if the situation actually presented itself. But, from here, I think I could do it. Having him dead would not make me feel any better. I would not have to beg a judge to save him from the death penalty. I would simply make no statement about it. Victims' loved ones are seldom asked what they think the punishment should be. If I were asked I'd say give him life without parole. It works in Europe. People manage to survive without the death penalty. There may be cases where it seems to be "justified'" but we can never be sure we have it right. Some years ago someone discussing the death penalty said,"If your loved one were murdered, wouldn't you want to see the killer executed?" An excellent response was, "Yes, not only would I want him executed, I'd want to kill him myself. But that's the reason we have laws and a justice system in civilized societies, and it's why we don't allow victims' loved ones to carry out punishment. To allow it would create chaos and a unspeakable violence." Lois
The death penalty should always be an option, even though it has been grossly misapplied in the past.
It would be fantastic if a victims loved ones could have the final say in whether the convicted gets executed or not.
A huge chunk of the US economy and culture is based on violence and death, and yet a tiny part of the population largely based on race and socio-economic status is singled out to carry the guilt in a sense. Capital punishment in the US and other countries smacks of old fashioned scapegoating and not real justice to me.
Any rational justice system is going to be based on restitution not retribution. Seeking revenge just feeds into the cycle of violence, which is maybe why some people support it. It re-enforces their world view in the same way that much of media and the right wing constantly try to build up the mean world syndrome.
A huge chunk of the US economy and culture is based on violence and death, and yet a tiny part of the population largely based on race and socio-economic status is singled out to carry the guilt in a sense. Capital punishment in the US and other countries smacks of old fashioned scapegoating and not real justice to me. Any rational justice system is going to be based on restitution not retribution. Seeking revenge just feeds into the cycle of violence, which is maybe why some people support it. It re-enforces their world view in the same way that much of media and the right wing constantly try to build up the mean world syndrome.There is no restitution or even justice for murder, torture, or rape of a child.
There is no restitution or even justice for murder, torture, or rape of a child.So your answer is to feed back into the culture of violence and revenge that places many children in a vulnerable position in the first place? The problem isn't that there's too much respect for human and other life in the world, it's that there's not enough and killing a few people in a barbaric manner isn't going to restore a balance that we've obviously lost. The people who end up on death row are the tip of an iceberg of what is a very sick culture when you look at how much violence is sold in mainstream media, how much social and ecological destruction is done in the name of profit and how much global conflict is driven by individual greed. And yet killing a few of the most pathetic members of society is going to fix all that? It's wallpapering over the cracks of a house that is falling down and expecting that to hold things together. It's about as meaningful as Aztec priests sacrificing people captured in war in the belief that will restore a natural balance. Capital punishment may appeal to a very primitive need in some people but in the end all it really does is make this a less safe world for us all by lowering even further the value of human life.
As a person grows, s/he takes value from society. After reaching adulthood the person usually then furnishes value back to it. Violent criminals destroy a great deal of value from society, so rather than killing them, we should have them return some value, even if minor. A simple remedy would be to perform a thorough prefrontal lobotomy on the killer, then have him/her work at some menial but nessary task that doesn’t take any thought, like sweeping sidewalks, weeding parks, etc. 
Occam
As a person grows, s/he takes value from society. After reaching adulthood the person usually then furnishes value back to it. Violent criminals destroy a great deal of value from society, so rather than killing them, we should have them return some value, even if minor. A simple remedy would be to perform a thorough prefrontal lobotomy on the killer, then have him/her work at some menial but nessary task that doesn't take any thought, like sweeping sidewalks, weeding parks, etc. :) OccamKnowing you for a while I will assume this is tongue and cheek but for the sake of argument. Doing a prefrontal lobotomy is perhaps even worse than death. the person we are is the net product of the electrical activity of all of our synapses. There is no soul per-se which is separate from the material matter which makes up our brains. When you remove the frontal lobe you remove a significant portion of the persons personality and in some real sense have killed that person. Even though they may look the same and inhabit the same body much of the person who was once in there is not there anymore. Unfortunately there is no way to just remove the bad impulses without also removing much of what makes us who we are. Fuzzy I don't agree with your logic when you state "So your answer is to feed back into the culture of violence and revenge that places many children in a vulnerable position in the first place?' This may sound like good rhetoric but its not accurate. If the death penalty were to be enforced in the fairest way possible to only those situations ( like the one I related in previous posts) then executions would be limited to individuals who committed absolutely heinous crimes and who had no respect for life themselves. I don't see how this places children at risk. We can debate the effectiveness of the death penalty as a deterrent but you would be hard pressed to show that it increases the chances of a child being the victim of violence.
Fuzzy I don't agree with your logic when you state "So your answer is to feed back into the culture of violence and revenge that places many children in a vulnerable position in the first place?' This may sound like good rhetoric but its not accurate. If the death penalty were to be enforced in the fairest way possible to only those situations ( like the one I related in previous posts) then executions would be limited to individuals who committed absolutely heinous crimes and who had no respect for life themselves. I don't see how this places children at risk. We can debate the effectiveness of the death penalty as a deterrent but you would be hard pressed to show that it increases the chances of a child being the victim of violence.The violence committed by the people who end up on death row is part of a continuum that includes how violence is glorified in popular culture and the extensive use of violence and coercion by the state to often assert the interests of a tiny minority of the population. Having the state kill a few people mostly from the bottom rungs of the social economic ladder doesn't do anything to resolve the underlying inequity and injustice of the existing dysfunctional social structure and in all likelihood reinforces it. It's about an illusion of justice, not real justice and allows the cynical few to extend their control even further. I also think it glorifies a segment of society that after a fair trial should be isolated permanently from the rest of us in as spartan conditions as possible as they are left to come to the realization of just how insignificant they really are. I think it's sick that they end up as being in a twisted sense stars as they go through the process leading to their deaths. It ends up emphasizing the violence they commit instead of demystifying it.
Yes Mac, it was tongue in cheek, however, there was a grain of substance in that by killing the person we not only destroy his/her brain and personality, we also destroy the body. My suggestion was an execution of the personality while keeping the body so we can put it to some use, thus repaying society a bit for the damage s/he caused.
I know a prefrontal lobotomy is horrible, but then, what is execution?
Occam
I know a prefrontal lobotomy is horrible, but then, what is execution? OccamCheaper and faster.