Are blacklists and torture acceptable to humanists?

Britain is essentially confessing here to having a black-list of internet activists who they are going to confront. Call it a pilot project. Truth is freedom. They don’t seem to care about truth at all. Taken incommunicado, under terror regulations, with torture they will extract anything they like from wee citizens. In effect the more you tell the truth the more you are a threat why? Because this is how illegitimate the West has become. Such moves indicate desperation. Badges will eventually be awarded, and worn proudly to the survivors of this age who were not complicit. As to which side you personally choose: yes, you are going to have to make this choice. Indeed here in the U$ we are going to be making such a choice shortly, sportly. Several candidates are running to do in the deep state. You can support them. You can cut through the stifling propaganda that is so thick now that you are going to need to sharpen your knife. Stay sharp, people.

I’m pretty exhausted from everything I’ve been doing, so I had a little time to listen to this, but, I had to stop after 7 minutes, it’s just not worth it. It starts out with a bunch of unsubstantiated allegations. He translates “investigation” into the innocent being spied on. What do you think police do? They investigate until they find evidence. If they don’t, they don’t arrest them. He says they won’t be able to speak in their defense. Where does he get that? Who was jailed without a trial? No one.

Then McGovern goes back to 2018 and Gina Haspel, and seemingly further back when Bush was condoning torture. This is known, and it was ended with Obama. It’s hard to follow the guy as he cherry picks and talks fast and uses emotionally charged comments from “associates”.

as a moderator I am not required and I will not be reading all of your posts, but I can still tell that you use poor sources from examples like this. Your data does not support your claim. No humanists are saying torture is acceptable. We used the little power we have to vote out people like Bush and Cheney.

If you want to post stuff like this, limit your berating of people who don’t respond, or call it bad, to ZERO. Do not call us shills or propagandized or anything else. Just post your non-news and leave it.

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[quote=“timbandtech, post:1, topic:10403”]
Britain is essentially confessing here to having a black-list of internet activists who they are going to confront.

What if these “activists” are planning to bomb London?

Call it a pilot project. Truth is freedom. They don’t seem to care about truth at all.

Are you saying that non-truth leads to uncovering subversive actions?

Taken incommunicado, under terror regulations, with torture they will extract anything they like from wee citizens.

Activists are wee citizens, who could express their political preferences via voting?

In effect the more you tell the truth the more you are a threat why? Because this is how illegitimate the West has become. Such moves indicate desperation.

Well now, you are clearly entering an area of pure speculation and fantasy. You must realize that your “intuitions” are just that and unless you can provide proof, it is you who is the activist propagandist who needs to be monitored.


Suppose what you say is not true? Think about it. Do you believe a person can just continue to lie or speculate with impunity and/or consequences because there is free speech?

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Actually you haven’t established that “truth” is being told.

I would say: In effect, the more one deliberately peddles disinformation and lies the more of a threat one is.

Now the question - the challenge - is how do we sort the honest facts, from distorting lies?

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Yes police and secret service spy on " honest citizens ".

It is needed as one of the jobs of the police is to prevent attentats.

If someone prepares himself to explode wit a bomb among a group of hundreds of people packed together, i prefer he be arrested preventively.

I don’t like it, and it tends to go out from any control.

It is a needed danger, and it is up to the judge and the politics to watch.

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OK. I apologize for being alarmist. Yet, the statement of Sajid Javid is not propaganda, is it?n He is the UK Home Secretary at the moment, as I understand it. As he has formally mentioned here a list of 20,000 British citizens of interest he has establisthed that a blacklist does exist.

Now, possibly you could argue that this is propaganda coming out of the British government. As to what its purpose would be: one could argue that it is to normalize blacklists. Sort of like Trudeau freezing activists bank accounts during the truckers movement. These are the new methods of the West to keep their citizenry in line. Is it worth ringing an alarm bell? Maybe my earlier apology does deserve some more scrutiny.

There is another interpretation of this statement as well: Javid is exposing bad practice, and heading it off early by making such a statement. Really: why publicize such details so openly? Such a list could easily be opened up in quantity by flicking a few metrics.

I do concede that this comes at us fast. I think they tried to squeeze too much into the program, but Afshin felt the need to get this out to us.

What we see is that the truth tellers are the ones who get imprisoned who confront the government lies.
Julian Assange is of course the finest example right there in England. As well he is the greatest internet activist of all time. We see censorship by the U$ government of private internet sites. I’m sorry it these details seem tangential, but as a cluster they add up. We have become what was hated about the Soviet Union.

Strangely enough, noone has managed to step up to the question that is the title of this thread. CFI is a very strange place on the internet. As practicing humanists I am amazed that the very first words out of your keyboards is not a resounding ‘No’. I wonder, could it happen now? No? Why?

As Ray McGovern points out there are international laws which do become of interest, particularly during the waning hegemonic run that the U$ has had, whereby its torture sites get exposed and no accountability is available. That accountability could be coming available shortly is entirely desirable. I don’t wish to be complicit with it, and so I’ll answer my own OP here: No!

And why are these people on the blacklist? Could it be they are terrorists or traitors?

The insurgents that stormed the US Capitol were US citizens engaged in treason!
What should we do? Burn the blacklist and hope they will forget their aims to a takeover of a government THEY don’t like? A coup?

No. No. No. You can’t just change words and call it evidence. A “person of interest” is a legal term. This isn’t a cartoon. We don’t wait until someone is caught red handed, then lift them off to jail.

A black list is used to exclude people from getting jobs, joining clubs, or whatever. They are either not legal, or there needs to be good reason for the list.

Do you mean like in the McCarthy era?

I suppose it remains to be seen. This is a fairly recent release. This is an official by the way stating this in the open. this is not some back room leak. Would you think that the British public is quite alarmed right now? Like a pretty decent target for a demo nuke? As I recall the Russians have already floated the idea of a nuclear tsunami off the British coast.

The number 20,000 individuals; 23,000 actually I believe, with the additional 3,000 being of even greater concern, if I remember his words correctly; no strict criteria were mentioned. This could easily be expanded no doubt to 200,000 by a mere poll. Almost certainly the issue is Russophobia. Those who refuse to adopt Russophobia are going to be penalized now. By sticking to the truth rather than consuming the lies the tensions are laid for more unrest. Things are ratcheting up. This report is proof.

“But that is what a free and open discussion in a democratic society looks like. Ukraine trying to shut it down is a mirror image of the repressive behaviour we rightfully criticise in Russia. We shouldn’t be encouraging it.” - Clare Daly

It’s what black list means. But the UK is not keeping a black list, it didn’t use the word. They said their police are doing policing. You used the word but you used it wrong

Possibly we should start over with another list. I haven’t bumped any further information on this list of internet users in Britain.

Is it meaningful that this site has Langley, Virginia, USA in its top left corner on its home page?

I don’t know that the color of the list matters so much as does the reasoning behind it. There is a list of people who were hung at the Nuremburg trials, and if you could get much darker than that you’d have to go after their family members as well. Well: that certainly has been a practice in the game of the global hegemon. Now there would be a list to color-code carefully. I’m all for color-codes and even for coding colorfully, possibly even coloring cryptically, and as to who maintains lists and lists of lists and who are interested in enlisting more list keepers, well, I doubt you’ll beat Uncle Sam in this game. It’s when the list gets out and who’s on it perhaps that matters most.

At some point I’d like to be on the list whose title is ‘non-complicit’. And as to how many would choose this list over the alternative, well… demands to be listed. The idea that we are marginalized at this site is telling. One theory of this OP limited hangout is that because the censorship bubble has burst that there must be some next mechanism of controlling the public dialog. To what degree the exercise was propaganda or even just a pilot project in normalization; if they do it again and the figure reaches a half a million people then I suppose we’ll have some metric. Let’s see now I believe it was 23,00 in total the first time. On 67 million its just 0.03 percent of the population. I suppose we could forget that it ever even happened… except then why announce this at a press conference? That really is the peculiar part.

No. I’m afraid this is going to be a valid topic of conversation for some time to come. The myrotvorets thing is pretty old now, though it is the darkest of them that I know, it is also in a language I don’t understand and that Google, in its complicity, refuses to translate. I’m sorry, but the West is not turning out to be quite as it should. I suppose I am suposed to blame Russia, and add it to the very long list…

Why, this is no blacklist…

Never heard of them. Apparently, “The publishing of personal information on the site has been criticized by human rights organizations.”

It translated for me.

Some feel drawn to get behind their nation, no matter how bad she looks.
Complicity is her name.

Well, that was fast. This was up just yesterday.