Now here’s a main reason why I feel people are better off with the delusional belief of there being a God and an afterlife (including me) because there is the ultimate mockery of all of you as a human being which is that, in the future, they might find a way to become immortal and eliminate many types of suffering (diseases and such). Everyone in the future might live a nice life of immortality while you and everyone else are “unfortunate" in that you will not only live lives of suffering and possible disease, but will die and remain dead in the end after all that suffering and no special reward for that suffering in the end. All of it was for nothing in the end. One might have the attitude of “At least I did my best in life" or that “At least I’ve helped others suffering," but even that will be all for nothing in the end because when you are dead, the fact that you made the best of your life would no longer matter and also that anyone you’ve inspired or helped in life—they will just die in the end as well. No, it doesn’t matter how much of a person you are and what your desires are in life, this pathetic universe considers you “unfortunate" and, for that very reason, you are going to suffer and die and remain dead. Therefore, this is one of the main reason why I consider this life a pathetic joke and an utter mockery to us as human beings. This is why I wish I instead wasn’t an atheist and believed there was a God and an afterlife of immortality and eternal joy and feel that people are better off with this delusional belief. The only thing they are not better off with would just be the morals of religion—those are something I am against.
No, it doesn’t matter how much of a person you are and what your desires are in life, this pathetic universe considers you “unfortunate" and, for that very reason, you are going to suffer and die and remain dead.The universe actually doesn't think much about me at all. It doesn't "consider" me anything. You first have to imagine that there is some overall meaning to the universe as a whole, then realize that your part in it has a beginning and an end and a very short middle to then conclude that your part is meaningless in that overall meaning. But you have begged the question. You have first created the idea of some larger meaning, then asked how you fit in. But that larger meaning never existed. Meaning arose in us, out of nothing, out of meaninglessness, from no consciousness came consciousness. Our lives have meaning because we are experiencing them as meaningful. There is nothing else to question about that. You can shape what that meaning is or compare it to other conceptualization of meaning, but it will always be meaning.
No, it doesn’t matter how much of a person you are and what your desires are in life, this pathetic universe considers you “unfortunate" and, for that very reason, you are going to suffer and die and remain dead.The universe actually doesn't think much about me at all. It doesn't "consider" me anything. You first have to imagine that there is some overall meaning to the universe as a whole, then realize that your part in it has a beginning and an end and a very short middle to then conclude that your part is meaningless in that overall meaning. But you have begged the question. You have first created the idea of some larger meaning, then asked how you fit in. But that larger meaning never existed. Meaning arose in us, out of nothing, out of meaninglessness, from no consciousness came consciousness. Our lives have meaning because we are experiencing them as meaningful. There is nothing else to question about that. You can shape what that meaning is or compare it to other conceptualization of meaning, but it will always be meaning. Good point. All "meaning" we create that is outside of ourselves is fantasy. We're born, we develop our own intrinsic sense of "meaning", we die. That's all there is. We'll never know "the end of the story" or what our actual impact was on the world, any more than, say, a worker ant helping go build its world, the colony. If the ant could think like a human he would probably think he was making a tremendous impact, too, and that there is "meaning" to its life beyond the colony and its lowly part in it. The impact is so negligible it's hardly worth thinking about. It's the same with humans. Lois
Good point. All "meaning" we create that is outside of ourselves is fantasy. We're born, we develop our own intrinsic sense of "meaning", we die. That's all there is. We'll never know "the end of the story" or what our actual impact was on the world, any more than, say, a worker ant helping go build its world, the colony. If the ant could think like a human he would probably think he was making a tremendous impact, too, and that there is "meaning" to its life beyond the colony and its lowly part in it. The impact is so negligible it's hardly worth thinking about. It's the same with humans. LoisI actually didn't say it's fantasy or that we'll never know our impact. We won't know the total sum of our impact, but we get feedback from the universe all the time. It's quite worth it to notice that and examine it. What else would you do?
Good point. All "meaning" we create that is outside of ourselves is fantasy. We're born, we develop our own intrinsic sense of "meaning", we die. That's all there is. We'll never know "the end of the story" or what our actual impact was on the world, any more than, say, a worker ant helping go build its world, the colony. If the ant could think like a human he would probably think he was making a tremendous impact, too, and that there is "meaning" to its life beyond the colony and its lowly part in it. The impact is so negligible it's hardly worth thinking about. It's the same with humans. LoisI actually didn't say it's fantasy or that we'll never know our impact. We won't know the total sum of our impact, but we get feedback from the universe all the time. It's quite worth it to notice that and examine it. What else would you do? The "feedback" is often wrong and humans tend to accept the positive feedback and ignore the negative. In addition, all the feedback comes from other humans looking for "meaning." They are bound to find what they are looking for. LL
Good point. All "meaning" we create that is outside of ourselves is fantasy. We're born, we develop our own intrinsic sense of "meaning", we die. That's all there is. We'll never know "the end of the story" or what our actual impact was on the world, any more than, say, a worker ant helping go build its world, the colony. If the ant could think like a human he would probably think he was making a tremendous impact, too, and that there is "meaning" to its life beyond the colony and its lowly part in it. The impact is so negligible it's hardly worth thinking about. It's the same with humans. LoisI actually didn't say it's fantasy or that we'll never know our impact. We won't know the total sum of our impact, but we get feedback from the universe all the time. It's quite worth it to notice that and examine it. What else would you do? The "feedback" is often wrong and humans tend to accept the positive feedback and ignore the negative. In addition, all the feedback comes from other humans looking for "meaning." They are bound to find what they are looking for. LL Now you've completely lost me. People are bound to find meaning in life? Boy, that's going to kill a lot of the movie industry and what will poets do?
I think you’re all kind of missing the point. The universe just exists. The living things in it just exist. Do we ever worry whether plants or animals have “meaning” in their lives? No, they’re only here to be used as far as we’re concerned. For most of human history, people didn’t worry much about meaning either, because they were too busy just trying to stay alive. Now that we have the leisure to think about higher things, we find meaning for ourselves in the things we do for one another. That’s all well and good. But the universe keeps going whether we care about it or not.
What human history are you talking about? The millions of years that we were closer to apes or are you starting with the “modern” human of 200,000 years ago? We already had fire and were making arrowheads by then and 80,000 years ago we started making beads and figurines. I’d say “meaning” has been around for a while and practically defines who we are.
Now here’s a main reason why I feel people are better off with the delusional belief of there being a God and an afterlife (including me) because there is the ultimate mockery of all of you as a human being which is that, in the future, they might find a way to become immortal and eliminate many types of suffering (diseases and such). Everyone in the future might live a nice life of immortality while you and everyone else are “unfortunate" in that you will not only live lives of suffering and possible disease, but will die and remain dead in the end after all that suffering and no special reward for that suffering in the end. All of it was for nothing in the end. One might have the attitude of “At least I did my best in life" or that “At least I’ve helped others suffering," but even that will be all for nothing in the end because when you are dead, the fact that you made the best of your life would no longer matter and also that anyone you’ve inspired or helped in life—they will just die in the end as well. No, it doesn’t matter how much of a person you are and what your desires are in life, this pathetic universe considers you “unfortunate" and, for that very reason, you are going to suffer and die and remain dead. Therefore, this is one of the main reason why I consider this life a pathetic joke and an utter mockery to us as human beings. This is why I wish I instead wasn’t an atheist and believed there was a God and an afterlife of immortality and eternal joy and feel that people are better off with this delusional belief. The only thing they are not better off with would just be the morals of religion—those are something I am against.After I became an atheist there wasn't one second that I wished I wasn't one, not one moment I wanted to live in a fantasyland. You are wasting your life wanting fantasy, and you are in danger of being talked into joining a cult. As I said before, you are clinically depressed and that's why you think this life is a "pathetic joke and an utter mockery to us as human beings." Mentally healthy people don't think like that. .You need help and you need it fast. I believe you are in serious danger. Lois
Now here’s a main reason why I feel people are better off with the delusional belief of there being a God and an afterlife (including me) because there is the ultimate mockery of all of you as a human being which is that, in the future, they might find a way to become immortal and eliminate many types of suffering (diseases and such). Everyone in the future might live a nice life of immortality while you and everyone else are “unfortunate" in that you will not only live lives of suffering and possible disease, but will die and remain dead in the end after all that suffering and no special reward for that suffering in the end. All of it was for nothing in the end. One might have the attitude of “At least I did my best in life" or that “At least I’ve helped others suffering," but even that will be all for nothing in the end because when you are dead, the fact that you made the best of your life would no longer matter and also that anyone you’ve inspired or helped in life—they will just die in the end as well. No, it doesn’t matter how much of a person you are and what your desires are in life, this pathetic universe considers you “unfortunate" and, for that very reason, you are going to suffer and die and remain dead. Therefore, this is one of the main reason why I consider this life a pathetic joke and an utter mockery to us as human beings. This is why I wish I instead wasn’t an atheist and believed there was a God and an afterlife of immortality and eternal joy and feel that people are better off with this delusional belief. The only thing they are not better off with would just be the morals of religion—those are something I am against.It sounds to me as if you think coping out would make your life easier. Maybe so in your mind, but remember, no amout of belief makes something a fact
Now here’s a main reason why I feel people are better off with the delusional belief of there being a God and an afterlife (including me) because there is the ultimate mockery of all of you as a human being which is that, in the future, they might find a way to become immortal and eliminate many types of suffering (diseases and such). Everyone in the future might live a nice life of immortality while you and everyone else are “unfortunate" in that you will not only live lives of suffering and possible disease, but will die and remain dead in the end after all that suffering and no special reward for that suffering in the end. All of it was for nothing in the end. One might have the attitude of “At least I did my best in life" or that “At least I’ve helped others suffering," but even that will be all for nothing in the end because when you are dead, the fact that you made the best of your life would no longer matter and also that anyone you’ve inspired or helped in life—they will just die in the end as well. No, it doesn’t matter how much of a person you are and what your desires are in life, this pathetic universe considers you “unfortunate" and, for that very reason, you are going to suffer and die and remain dead. Therefore, this is one of the main reason why I consider this life a pathetic joke and an utter mockery to us as human beings. This is why I wish I instead wasn’t an atheist and believed there was a God and an afterlife of immortality and eternal joy and feel that people are better off with this delusional belief. The only thing they are not better off with would just be the morals of religion—those are something I am against.Something tells me you're quite young. If so, and even if not, get a hobby. It'll be something tiny to give your life meaning. Maybe start an aquarium, collect beer cans or coins. Then find a loving spouse and have kids. THEN you will see where value and meaning come from and that life is pathetic only if you say it is.
Good point. All "meaning" we create that is outside of ourselves is fantasy. We're born, we develop our own intrinsic sense of "meaning", we die. That's all there is. We'll never know "the end of the story" or what our actual impact was on the world, any more than, say, a worker ant helping go build its world, the colony. If the ant could think like a human he would probably think he was making a tremendous impact, too, and that there is "meaning" to its life beyond the colony and its lowly part in it. The impact is so negligible it's hardly worth thinking about. It's the same with humans. LoisI actually didn't say it's fantasy or that we'll never know our impact. We won't know the total sum of our impact, but we get feedback from the universe all the time. It's quite worth it to notice that and examine it. What else would you do? The "feedback" is often wrong and humans tend to accept the positive feedback and ignore the negative. In addition, all the feedback comes from other humans looking for "meaning." They are bound to find what they are looking for. LL Now you've completely lost me. People are bound to find meaning in life? Boy, that's going to kill a lot of the movie industry and what will poets do? I didn't say we aren't influenced by everything we experience, including poetry and movies. But we create our own "meaning" from all the clues we are exposed to, good and bad. We may or may not be correct, and we'll never know. Lois
What human history are you talking about? The millions of years that we were closer to apes or are you starting with the "modern" human of 200,000 years ago? We already had fire and were making arrowheads by then and 80,000 years ago we started making beads and figurines. I'd say "meaning" has been around for a while and practically defines who we are.What I'm saying is that even once our ancestors discovered civilization, the vast majority of people have always been too busy just living their lives to worry about whether they had "meaning" or not. Whenever I get depressed and worry about whether my life "means" anything, I think of some poor soul born in 2000 BCE. He slaved all day in the fields or dragging stones for the Pharaoh's pyramid. If he didn't die from some plague before he was 20, like as not he was sent off to die in a pointless war with the Babylonians or somebody. If there was a God, I'd thank her every day that I was able to experience science, philosophy and art, not to mention being able to share my thoughts on a forum like this! :)
After I became an atheist there wasn't one second that I wished I wasn't one, not one moment I wanted to live in a fantasyland. You are wasting your life wanting fantasy, and you are in danger of being talked into joining a cult. As I said before, you are clinically depressed and that's why you think this life is a "pathetic joke and an utter mockery to us as human beings." Mentally healthy people don't think like that. .You need help and you need it fast. I believe you are in serious danger. LoisThere have been a few times I've wished there WAS a God, but never wished for diminished mental capacity. If you really want to believe in supernatural things, your mind can find ways to do it. I personally think that ML protests too much. I suspect he's really a troll. If he is sincere in what he claims to believe, I agree with you. He needs cognitive emotive therapy. But we've suggested this several times.
After I became an atheist there wasn't one second that I wished I wasn't one, not one moment I wanted to live in a fantasyland. You are wasting your life wanting fantasy, and you are in danger of being talked into joining a cult. As I said before, you are clinically depressed and that's why you think this life is a "pathetic joke and an utter mockery to us as human beings." Mentally healthy people don't think like that. .You need help and you need it fast. I believe you are in serious danger. LoisThere have been a few times I've wished there WAS a God, but never wished for diminished mental capacity. If you really want to believe in supernatural things, your mind can find ways to do it. I personally think that ML protests too much. I suspect he's really a troll. If he is sincere in what he claims to believe, I agree with you. He needs cognitive emotive therapy. But we've suggested this several times. I don't think it will do any good with ML, but I feel compelled to say something when I see something. I can imagine wishing there could be a god who would reward the good and punish the bad. But everytime I think of it beyond an idle wish, I see all over again all the reasons such an entity can't possibly exist except in the imagination. It's no different than wishing Santa Claus is real. What happens when you examine the details and what is necessary for it to be true? You wind up caught in dead ends and blind alleys. Lois
What I'm saying is that even once our ancestors discovered civilization, the vast majority of people have always been too busy just living their lives to worry about whether they had "meaning" or not. Whenever I get depressed and worry about whether my life "means" anything, I think of some poor soul born in 2000 BCE. He slaved all day in the fields or dragging stones for the Pharaoh's pyramid. If he didn't die from some plague before he was 20, like as not he was sent off to die in a pointless war with the Babylonians or somebody. If there was a God, I'd thank her every day that I was able to experience science, philosophy and art, not to mention being able to share my thoughts on a forum like this! :)Can't really argue with that. I sometimes package food and send it to starving children. If anyone ever asks me why, my first answer is, "they're hungry". There's more to it than that, but ultimately there doesn't need to be any more explanation. I've never experience slavery or serfdom, but I can see how the promise of a better life, after this one, is a way to get people to stop questioning there place or thinking about human rights.
oh sure Mozart, it’s all been said before National Lampoon's Deteriorata - YouTube
I myself love learning about and somewhat understanding the actual physical reality we inhabit everyday,
along with my connection to it, much more.
I don’t need an imaginary heaven to be at peace with were my body and spirit will be going when I die.
What’s worse about your suggestion is that obsessing over heaven makes folks blind to the actual world we all live in.
Sad part of advocating from that sort of disconnect from reality is that it carries over into
how too folks handle real world situations… oblivious to the scientific understanding…
and not caring in any event. :down:
I've never experience slavery or serfdom, but I can see how the promise of a better life, after this one, is a way to get people to stop questioning there place or thinking about human rights.I think that's the reason organized religions do so well. If the priests tell us there's an afterlife, we are content to take their word for it. It saves us from having to think about it. Go to church on Sunday and you don't have to think about it anymore for the rest of the week. Those people who DO stop and think about it generally end up Freethinkers and atheists. :)
Those people who DO stop and think about it generally end up Freethinkers and atheistsand quite interesting folks most of the time. ;)