IMO, due to the fact that each individual brain is completely removed from direct experience, many people cling to the false notion of a single intelligent creator agency that binds all our brains together without any proof whatsoever, instead of realizing that what binds us together does not need to be intelligent at all.
It just needs to be causal in a logical way.
That is where I like Tegmark’s perspective of a quasi-intelligent mathematical agency.
There is abundant evidence for that proposition.
No, you are purposely misinterpreting what I said and what I meant. Mathematics are guiding equations that determine the relational interaction between physical value potentials.
Physical objects are value patterns of various shapes and densities, each with inherent potential that may or may not become reality.
Potential = That which may become reality.
David Bohm named it the “enfolding and unfolding” of potential in reality.
Wholeness and the Implicate Order
In Bohm’s Wholeness and the Implicate Order, he used these notions to describe how the appearance of such phenomena might appear differently, or might be characterized by, varying principal factors, depending on contexts such as scales.[1]
The implicate (also referred to as the “enfolded”) order is seen as a deeper and more fundamental order of reality. In contrast, the explicate or “unfolded” order includes the abstractions that humans normally perceive.
As he wrote:
In the "enfolded" or "implicate" order, space and time are no longer the dominant factors determining the relationships of dependence or independence of different elements. Rather, an entirely different sort of basic connection of elements is possible, from which our ordinary notions of space and time, along with those of separately existent material particles, are abstracted as forms derived from the deeper order.
These ordinary notions in fact appear in what is called the "unfolded" or "explicate" order, which is a special and distinguished form contained within the general totality of all the implicate orders (Bohm 1980, p. xv). Implicate and explicate order - Wikipedia
What is causal in math?
A causal relationship indicates a correlation between two values, where one actually causes the other to change . In algebra, understanding the relationship between two values can help you predict future values when graphing.Apr 25, 2017
It is undeniable that all physical objects have algebraic values. It is these physical values that determine the mathematical relational interactions between physical objects.
It has been proven that these relational values (differential equations) are constant between objects of fixed values
In physics, a dynamical system is described as a “particle or ensemble of particles whose state varies over time and thus obeys differential equations involving time derivatives”.[3] In order to make a prediction about the system’s future behavior, an analytical solution of such equations or their integration over time through computer simulation is realized.
The study of dynamical systems is the focus of dynamical systems theory, which has applications to a wide variety of fields such as mathematics, physics,[4][5] biology,[6] chemistry, engineering,[7] economics,[8] history, and medicine. Dynamical systems are a fundamental part of chaos theory, logistic map dynamics, bifurcation theory, the self-assembly and self-organization processes, and the edge of chaos concept.
Causal Determinism
First published Thu Jan 23, 2003; substantive revision Thu Jan 21, 2016
Causal determinism is, roughly speaking, the idea that every event is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions together with the laws of nature. The idea is ancient, but first became subject to clarification and mathematical analysis in the eighteenth century.
Determinism is deeply connected with our understanding of the physical sciences and their explanatory ambitions, on the one hand, and with our views about human free action on the other. In both of these general areas there is no agreement over whether determinism is true (or even whether it can be known true or false), and what the import for human agency would be in either case.
Moreover, I have explained how that should be interpreted.
It depends on your perspective of reality, either in subjective human terms or objective universal terms.
The universe has no names for physical objects. To the universe physical objects are collections of relational values in various shapes and densities.
You see the difference?
No, that isn’t how reality works. Neither is it an equation in the mathematical sense. Let alone the philosophical. Mathematics does not exist independent of reality.
[quote=“martin-peter-clarke, post:190, topic:7931, full:true”]
No, that isn’t how reality works. Neither is it an equation in the mathematical sense. Let alone the philosophical. Mathematics does not exist independent of reality.
[/quote] Of course they do in the abstract . Don’t anthropomorphize. Humans have nothing to do with the properties of Logic
Define Logic
Logic
Two central metalogical properties are soundness and completeness . A system of logic is sound when its proof system cannot derive a conclusion from a set of premises unless it is semantically entailed by them. In other words, its proof system cannot lead to false conclusions, as defined by the semantics.
Define reality
Reality
Reality is the sum or aggregate of all that is real or existent within a system, as opposed to that which is only imaginary. The term is also used to refer to the ontological status of things, indicating their existence.[1]
In physical terms, reality is the totality of a system, known and unknown.[2] Philosophical questions about the nature of reality or existence or being are considered under the rubric of ontology, which is a major branch of metaphysics in the Western philosophical tradition.
Ontological questions also feature in diverse branches of philosophy, including the philosophy of science, philosophy of religion, philosophy of mathematics, and philosophical logic. These include questions about whether only physical objects are real (i.e., Physicalism), whether reality is fundamentally immaterial (e.g., Idealism), whether hypothetical unobservable entities posited by scientific theories exist, whether God exists, whether numbers and other abstract objects exist, and whether possible worlds exist.
Define potential
Potential
Potential generally refers to a currently unrealized ability. The term is used in a wide variety of fields, from physics to the social sciences to indicate things that are in a state where they are able to change in ways ranging from the simple release of energy by objects to the realization of abilities in people.
In physics, a potential may refer to the scalar potential or to the vector potential. In either case, it is a field defined in space, from which many important physical properties may be derived. Leading examples are the gravitational potential and the electric potential, from which the motion of gravitating or electrically charged bodies may be obtained.
Specific forces have associated potentials, including the Coulomb potential, the van der Waals potential, the Lennard-Jones potential and the Yukawa potential. In electrochemistry there are Galvani potential, Volta potential, electrode potential, and standard electrode potential. In the thermodynamics, the term potential often refers to thermodynamic potential.
All of them can are forms of Logic and can be formalized in mathematical terms.
All your tl;dr presumptuous patronizing unsolicited screeds of what I already know are all the proof I need to know about your position. They confirm it. They are congruent, they are in agreement on your behalf, with what I know.
. The state of no-mind is borned from the reality of the mind …
. One has a mind, yet one is not minded about it.
. One has a mind, yet one is beyond it …
. This is what I mean when I say the state of “no-mind”.
. To attain mindlessness a totally different process in involved: I call it the ultimate alchemy. It consists only of a single element — that of watchfulness.
. One is to watch through the mind, to that which is beyond any mind attempt to grasp it.
. This is the noblest transformation the mind can ever make.
. From mind to mindlessness; from division to unity.
. Mind is division. Mind divides reality. Because, mind cannot go beyond logic or that which mind thinks is illogical … which is part of the mind’s logic too.
Well, that does sound very poetic and it has a certain allure.
But I am constantly reminded that The mind started along time ago with the first organism that responded to the pressures of the external world.
A single celled Paramecium has no brain, yet it learns to avoid obstacles.
IMO, that is the pro-state of “awareness”. Evolution and natural selection shaped and refined our and all living organism’s sensory abilities and refined them over billions of years, until awareness of environment translated into awareness of self in relation to the environment,
i.e. mindfulness .
Now you say we should return to the original state of mindlessness?
. Yes. The circle is complete, then. That’s the meaning of the egyptian symbol ouroboros. From mindlessness we were, even before birth … to mindlessness we shall be, after death.
This is a state of constant transformation.
. Yes. Unicelular organisms, prokaryotes, do have a mind. But their very psychobiological strutcture is different from ours. We shall not compare, then. They do not have 5 sensory organs as we have, therefore their very perception towards that which is … is totally different. Rather, they do not even perceive the world. Because, as such they don’t have a brain … which is a condition to perceive. They only have receptive senses. Nothing more …
. That’s the difference between us and a prokaryote. We have the capability of becoming conscious towards reality.
. Why is it so?
. Because, we can think.
. But who is the thinker then? Who is the enity who can think? Who is that which is witnessing the thoughts?
. Thats’s the me, the witness … in other words … awareness, pure awareness. That’s the state of so-called mindlessness.
[quote=“anandhaqq, post:198, topic:7931”]
Yes. The circle is complete, then. That’s the meaning of the egyptian symbol ouroboros . From mindlessness we were , even before birth … to mindlessness we shall be , after death.
This is a state of constant transformation.
Yes indeed, A transformation from mindlessness to mindfulness and back to mindlessness.
Question: how did we observe the universe before we were born? And how do we observe the universe after we die?
Answer: We don’t. Before we are born and after we die we are mindless.
It is the short period in between that we are mindful.
IMO, that is the transformative time that needs to be used to understand the universe.
Before and after we live there is no conscious awareness of any kind. After YOU die , YOU cease to exist and for YOU there be an eternity of absolute nothingness, but You won’t know because YOU do no longer exist.
. Yes, unicelular organisms, prokaryotes, do have a mind. But their very psychobiological strutcture is different from ours. We shall not compare, then. They do not have 5 sensory organs as we have, therefore their very perception towards that which is … is totally different. Rather, they do not even perceive the world. Because, as such they don’t have a brain … which a condition to perceive. They only have receptive senses. Nothing more …
. That’s the difference between us and a prokaryote. We have the capability of becoming conscious towards reality.
I agree with that. It is the prokaryotes that are fundamentally mindless. That’s why there are no smart prokaryotes. It is the eukaryotes that are in the transformative stage of mindfullness.
. Why is it so?
Microtubules (the cytoskeleton, a common denominator of all Eukaryotes are the fundamental data processing network on which all conscious self-awareness rests.
. Because, we can think.
Yes, but only when we are alive. Dead things do not think .
. There are a lot of good points, in what you have mentioned.
. Let me ask you something: “How do you know we don’t exist after we die?”
. Yes, our physical body ceases to exist.
. But are we our physical body? Then, if we are … what is the force, the substance through which our body is in constant evolution?
. Then if we are … That means we are nothing but a piece of earth. Because, that’s what the body is. A piece of earth. We came from the earth, and to the earth we shall return.
. Then if we are … There is not anything higher than the body. Then there is no consciousness. Then the moments of awe in Life, don’t exist; then the moments of utter oneness with existence, let us call mindlessness, don’t exist; then the moments, when you are utterly immersed into the rivering of things, without even a ripple of thought, don’t exist.
. Then if we are … Immediately, killing an innocent bird, and murdering an innocent child is the same. Then, no penalty shall be put over the perpetrator, because no dignity ahead we have from a bird. Because, no consciousness we are endowed with.
