Okay, why didn’t you say so. 
Sure that sounds palatable, in fact I kinda like it.
As I do that.
Now if we can both stay away from universe as math, we can both enjoy our day. Cheers
I told you we’re close. All we need to figure out is an underlying guiding Logic that converts dynamic chaos into ordered patterns that is NOT emotionally motivated, but has a functional dependable regularity in processing of relational values .
Have you ever tried to follow the actual mechanical chronology of natural selection?
The various selective processes are really remarkable.
In essence its underlying mathematical function is “subtraction” and removal of individuals with certain vulnerabilities from the chronology of procreation. It is not an active function but a purely mathematically passive function of survival of best adaptive abilities by removal of least adaptive abilities.
It is based on the principle of “last man standing” gets the prize.
Oh boy now you’re starting to sound like Hoffman: ‘evolution trained us to ignore what we didn’t need for survival’.
I don’t know, living life sure seems way more action packed than doing mathematical reductionism.
This is why I insist that we need more appreciation for wet evolution and less philosophizing.
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Yes, we have been trained to pay attention to what we want! Lights in my sneakers!
Do you need gills? Do you need a tail-bone? Did we have any control over losing these one-time survival advantages? We still have vestiges of these lost physical properties.
Not much we can do about them.
We have no control over natural evolution or natural selection. We have some control over artificial evolution and artificial selection, but often that results in disaster, when that is practised against natural genetic laws and natural law always prevails in the end. You cannot beat the mathematics involved.
The old European Royal families who tended to marry “in the family” to keep the Royal line pure had a high rate of inbreeding diseases, such as hemophilia.
Family, duty, honor: looking at historical parallels to the inbreeding in Europe
Though rare in the general population, the frequency of the mutated allele and the incidence of the disorder was greater among the royal families of Europe due to the high levels of royal inbreeding . A case in which the presence of hemophilia B had a particularly significant effect was that of the Romanovs of Russia. Apr 12, 2019
Inbreeding in Europe and Game of Thrones - BioTechniques
p.s. the budding Anthropocene (Global Warming) is a man caused evolutionary process. So far we have been ignoring this Big Time.
The Covid virus is an evolving threat to mankind. How many people are ignoring this?
Vaccination?.. Noo Way that you are gonna force me to get a needle in my body. I have the freedom to choose!!!
Let’s see who gets spared by Natural Selection . So far 5+ million people have not been spared, regardless if they cared or not!
Ran across this little gem
Don’t be confusing Hollywood driven consumerism with the training mother nature imposes on us.
(7.02) Appreciating the Physical Reality ~ Human Mindscape divide
Why isn’t it self-evident that consciousness and mind can’t be understood by studying modern people in these modern times? It requires an evolutionary perspective of the natural, biological forces at work. First producing simple creatures that eventually evolved into complex creatures, with branches that eventually evolved into us during the last few seconds of Evolution’s 24 hours of Creation.
How does one ponder the human brain and mind without wondering about how we evolved out of the mammalian class of animals. Think about it, the breast-feeding body plan with a lifestyle built around nurturing their young, developing families and even communities.
Physical Reality is the physical world of atoms, molecules, universal laws of physics, biology and Earth’s laws of nature. It is Earth’s dance between geology and biology and time and Earth’s evolving creatures. F or this discussion, one in particular, one that learned to contemplate the universe along with its short life.
Human Mindscape is all that goes on inside of our minds. The landscape of our thoughts and desires and impulses and those various voices and personalities who inhabit our thoughts and Being. The ineffable ideas that our hands can turn into physical reality and change our planet.
The me, myself and I , and all that unfolds within the thoughts just beyond the biological sparks and chemical cascades unfolding within our physical bodies and brains as they navigate their environments. …
Don’t I know it, all too well.
(reprinted with permission)
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I only think that’s disturbing me about that video, is that it seems to me you are trying to shoehorn what I’m writing about into some implied magical creation scenario.
When I’m not!!!
I’m saying too many look at evolution through a glass darkly, it’s our ego-centric (Abrahamic thinking inspired) blinders that I’m complaining about.
One more time . . .
After finishing all these Hoffman reviews, YouTube did me the favor of suggesting a lecture by Professor Mark Solms a neuropsychoanalysis. Solms’ talk was like a revelation. I spent the next two days binging on all the talks by Solms that I could find. Amazingly, they don’t get repetitive as so often happens, he’s always covering some new ground and there’s so much to absorb, and there were no red flags. Instead my early gut feelings about consciousness being a part of this body I existed within, were vindicated with more information than I could absorb.
It was like arriving at an oasis after a treacherous withering desert ordeal and being handed a pitcher of cool clean water and food. Finally, someone that made sense and though he doesn’t actually discuss evolution much, it’s obvious that he has a bottom up Evolutionary understanding of consciousness. As opposed to Hoffman’s fascination with Hollywood/Madison Avenue’s top down perspective on our human consciousness.
What’s the bottomline? Relax, we don’t need any metaphysical life-jackets.
Fundamentally, it’s turning out that our mind and consciousness is the inside reflection of our body/brain interacting with its dynamic environment. It’s simple, if mind-blowing, yet explainable and understandable. The “Hard Problem” turns out to be the human Ego vs. God issue.
6) Dr. Mark Solms deftly demystifies Chalmers’ “ Hard Problem ” of Consciousness
(6.01) Dr. Mark Solms demystifies Chalmers’ “Hard Problem” of Consciousness.
(6.02) The Other Side of Mark Solms PhD, doctor, professor, farmer, vintner, humanitarian.
(6.03) Students’ Resource: A representative cross-section of Dr. Mark Solms’ scientific publications.
I’m sorry but Hollywood consumerism is the result of social training and greed is an exaggerated extension of the natural need for stocking food.
Not just nuts: The surprising stuff animals hoard for winter
Animals have surprising ways of storing food, including becoming living kegs.
Like their gray cousins, red squirrels store seeds and nuts for the winter, but they also make themselves an extra treat. The squirrels dry out mushrooms and place them in trees, preferably conifers, near their stashes of pine cones and other foods.Oct 12, 2018
Nature makes no decisions , Living beings do.
You’re reducing this to a game of semantics.
Have you ever tried to follow the actual mechanical chronology of natural selection?
Not sure what you mean. Back in the late '80s I was in circumstances that allowed me to repeatedly watch Attenborough’s Life on Earth a totally mind blowing summary of the state of understanding regarding the evolution of life on our Earth - with the hook being visiting examples of living creatures that were holdovers to those long ago eras.
Probably one of the best documentary series ever made, though dated in style and some of it’s information - I bet it can still offer the receptive mind a tour of evolution that will offer revelation after revelation and forever change their outlook on life on Earth.
That inspired me to do something very much like your “actual mechanical chronology of natural selection” - I believe. At the time I had the space available where I was able to line up two banquet tables and unfold some continuous printer paper (like we had back then for matrix printers).
I graphed out Earth’s Evolution, 1mm = one million years, after I marked out the tick lines it was around 15 feet long. Then I marked out pretty much all the milestones I could think of - took me a few weeks to complete the project. It was purely an educational exercise because only by having to write down all that information and processing it slowly like that, could my mind truly start digesting what was happening.
It wasn’t until after that, that I really started digging into geology seriously and started discovering how fanatical the Rocky Mtns actually were. I’d always loved geology but it was more like a tourist enjoying the scenic postcards, than truly comprehending what was unfolding.
I don’t know for sure, cause I didn’t keep track, but I bet I spent around forty hours on it all told. It’s still hiding around here somewhere, I keep thinking it’s getting time to pull it out and write about it a little. Heck I might even have access to the same space I used way back then for a photo op.
Was that the sort of thing you meant?
W4U said;
Have you ever tried to follow the actual mechanical chronology of natural selection?
Yes, I also watched the original series and still do on Youtube.
Where most people assign the term Evolution to living things, I defend the position that there is Darwinian Evolution that specifically addresses living organism, and Universal Evolution that addresses all chronological physical changes, including the chronological evolution of the Universe itself.
As I have mentioned many times before Robert Hazen is one of my favorite scientists, who IMO has clearly laid out the process of Abiogenesis in his wonderful lectures.
My view of evolution is not narrow, it is expansive and inclusive of all change.
This is an excellent comprehensive overview of “Darwinian” (Lamarck and De Vries) evolution ;
4 Main Theories of Evolution (explained with diagram and tables) | Biology
As to Universal evolution,
Universal evolution
Universal evolution is a theory of evolution formulated by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin and Julian Huxley that describes the gradual development of the Universe from subatomic particles to human society, considered by Teilhard as the last stage.
Vernadsky’s and Teilhard’s theories
Vladimir Ivanovich Vernadsky influenced Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, and the two formulated very similar theories describing the gradual development of the universe from subatomic particles to human society and beyond. Teilhard’s theories are better known in the West (and have also been commented on by Julian Huxley), and integrate Darwinian evolution and Christianity, whilst Vernadsky wrote more purely from a scientific perspective.
Three classic levels are described. Cosmogenesis (Teilhard) or the formation of inanimate matter (the Physiosphere of Wilber), culminating in the Lithosphere, Atmosphere, Hydrosphere, etc. (Teilhard), or collectively, the Geosphere (Vernadsky). Here progress is ruled by structure and mechanical laws, and matter is primarily of the nature of non-consciousness (Teilhard - the “Without”).
This is followed by Biogenesis (Teilhard) and the origin of life or the Biosphere (Vernadsky, Teilhard), where there is a greater degree of complexity and consciousness (Teilhard - the “Within”), ecology (Vernadsky) comes into play, and progress and development is the result of Darwinian mechanisms of evolution.
Universal evolution - Wikipedia
I believe in Abiogenesis.
IMO, the process of natural selection starts with Chaos Theory.
Chaos theory is an interdisciplinary scientific theory and branch of mathematics focused on underlying patterns and deterministic laws highly sensitive to initial conditions in dynamical systems that were thought to have completely random states of disorder and irregularities.[1]
Chaos theory states that within the apparent randomness of chaotic complex systems, there are underlying patterns, interconnectedness, constant feedback loops, repetition, self-similarity, fractals, and self-organization.[2] Chaos theory - Wikipedia
On a fundamental level we both know the other understands the other also has a solid understanding of evolution unfolding, both cosmically and within our solar system.
It comes down to perspective. I dare say you’re the guy up there in the window at the desk, within the scholastic edifice, while I’m out there in the woods, the tree hunger, lady lover, baby nurturer, the benign outlaw. It’s the visceral for me, and the mathematical for you.
We use different languages, no that’s not true, it’s going too far. Funny, Narcissus and Goldmund just popped into my head. Are you familiar with the book by Hermann Hesse?
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Have you ever read any Hermann Hesse? He’s an old 18/19 century guy, melodramatic to the hilt, and I’ll admit, I’ve started way more of his books than I’ve finished, though have slogged my way to the end the important ones, even if it’s taken years sometimes. His writing can’t be overly … , yet the undercurrent spot on regarding aspect of human nature, and the thinker who’s outside the norm.
It’s the person of Hermann Hesse, and the ideas he was giving life to, that I loved. In any event, Narcissus and Goldmund, was recommended to me once. Insightful on many levels, depending on the readers own experience of life.
It is true, I believe that the Universe can ultimately be explained with mathematics. Maths are the calculus of Logic. And IMO, Logic is a fundamental property of the Universe.
But I also spent 14 years country living in the Log cabin I built and dug my own well.
Farming 8 acres of Alfalfa. Our pets 3 dogs, 2 cats, 2 goats , 1 ram, 3 pigs ,100 chickens. Chopped my own firewood and cleaned 4 ft snow in 200 yard driveway by hand almost every winter in Northern Idaho
Had Elk, deer, coyotes, skunk, and an occasional bear pass through our 40 forested acres.
I know something of living close to nature .
But I am a jack of all trades, master of none, and have travelled halfway around the world as merchant marine and as member of a travelling musical band playing the circuit for 7 years.
My cup runneth over… 
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Good on you. You out farm boy me, I take off my hat and bow my head.
Though I see you don’t have any Turkeys on the list. Back a few decades ago we rented a place that came with 20 some chickens and a Tom Turkey, also a goat but they’re no sweat, and taking care of them was part of the deal. No biggies.
But that freak’n Tom Turkey who was penned in with the chickens decided he hated me, and to get the eggs, I had to get past him, on the way to the hen house to collect eggs, I had to walk through the pen. But that Tom decided I was an intruder and let me know it: “I was not welcome and had to leave now, easy way or hard way”.
By the second day I had go in armed with a long bludgeon, to keep that monster away from me, cause he wanted to kill me and I mean the whole concept of them being dinosaurs jelled rather dramatically. We actually did physical battle with each other.
Before too many more days we discovered the Tom kinda liked my wife and gave her free passage, so it became her job and peace returned. The billy goat was a hoot.
Alfalfa, so you know the drama of watching the weather between cutting and baling.
Plus the whole musician angle, sweet. Yes, I can see you cup does indeed runneth over. Maybe that’s why we can argue with each other so well.
I’m curious did you spend your childhood years in the country, or big city, or in-between?
A fine city, I’ve stayed several times. My grandson is Dutch and I’m Opa.
I don’t know Amsterdam, but I know LookOut Pass in Northern Idaho, hell of road in a winter storm. With a touch of bad luck, rather than some good luck breaks, it would have been the last place I ever got to know, instead it’s just another cherished adventure chapter in this crazy kids’ life.
@write4U, I’ll bet you have some interesting stories to tell. For instance what brings you from a metropolitan hotspot like that to the wilds of Idaho? And what was that like tasting the vast expanses in the west after getting used to living on proverbial postage stamp.
I did spent three years in Europe mainly Germany and Switzerland, traveled some through adjacent countries but most my time was spent working, rather than traveling. After the utter fascination wore off and starting feeling common place, the feeling of claustrophobia started encroaching.
It’s funny I didn’t miss any of our American life style, but it was the huge expanses of open wild land where you could actually feel like you were free in, or at least without constantly having to deal with other people’s expectations, that’s what I really started getting homesick for.
So looking at that picture of Amsterdam, I was wonder what was like for you growing up within such small area. What brought you to America. I’ll bet you have your share of exciting adventures to ruminate on.
LOL no , that picture is of the red-light" district in Amsterdam, to give you a flavor of this most interesting city with an grand history as a center of commerce in Europe.
Today Amsterdam holds a yearly Marijuana Fair and wholesale market where all the marijuana growers display their various medicinal and recreational hybrids .
But that came after I left, dang it!
As a boy, I lived a block away from yhe Amsterdam Zoo (Natura Artis Magistra) where I helped in the childrens zoo and assisted a famous herpetologist/tour guide who was reptile expert and used me to demonstrate the various non-lethal reptiles to members of guided tours.
Struck up a friendship with a hyena who let me scratch his back through the fence
When I was after HS, I hung around the house devouring science fiction books, until my mother told me to go see the world.
So I mustered on as merchant marine and spend a year at sea travelling the coasts of Europe and South America
Having had a taste of travel I emigrated to Canada where I lived with an English family, learning to speak English.
I could write a book and I may still.
A Dutch boy who traveled half the world as a teenager, landed in Canada, where I self-taught playing bass and joined a trio with a german piano player and and English drummer, later to be joined by a Syrian vocalist, playing in an after-hours speakeasy in Vancouver BC .
An agent heard us and procured a three week engagement in the US, that led to a 7 year tour starting in small country clubs and army bases., eventually ending up in the main circuit of the big cities, and finally the big lounges in Las Vegas , Reno, alternating with the main acts.
That was the start of my grand adventure.
In Los Angeles I married an Indian girl and after moving to Idaho (bought 40 acres) worked for several Indian Tribes as proposal writer, eventually ending up as bookkeeper/payroll for a large non-profit economic development organization providing social assistance to low-income families.
And a whole lot in between…
Am now retired and spending most of my time behind the computer doinf research of everything that piques my interest. And CFI gives me a nice place to share and learn about the infinite mysteries of the universe.
I am well satisfied with my life and after three heart ablations that added thirty years to my life , I am grateful to have been a witness to the grand spectacle that is the Universe and Life on Earth.
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Well okay then, no more prof. W4u, 4 U.
Ocean going, I guess you know open spaces on a level I can’t conceive of.
(Somehow I don’t think flying over The Atlantic does it any justice.)
From music to rural, to writing grant proposals for non-profits.
It’s always fascinating the surprises that lie in other people.
More adventurer than academic, okay I stand corrected!
Let me know if you start writing that book, or simply a few memoirs, bet it’ll make for some fun reading.
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Well I’ve been trying to focus my free time on finished my “A Preview to Cc’s, "Hoffman Playing Basketball In Zero-gravity” project. I think I’m finally getting close to calling it a wrap so I thought why not run it up the flag pole, well, at least the closing essay. I’m always looking for some interesting feed back.
[ (7.04) It’s not a “Body-Mind problem” it’s an “Ego-God issue
Perhaps the most profound lesson I’ve learned from my Hoffman adventure is that as I’ve followed the philosophical roots of “dualism” back through Descartes (1600s) and on past Anselm (1000s), one thing has become clear. the entire philosophical edifice of this Mind-Body “Problem” was formed from within that Abrahamic God-fearing mindset that gave us the three major religions, with their self-serving patriarchal mentality, heaven and hell, along with branding dualism’s hard boundaries and need for a sense of certitude into our imagination and onto our expectations.
The Abrahamic worldview perceives people as isolated objects, not only from this planet, but each other, even from ourselves. The creatures we live with and the landscapes we exist within are treated with contempt and wanton waste.
Regarding the “Mind-Body Problem.”
Dr. Solms makes a wonderful analogy that highlights the error being made:
Question: Was it the lightning or thunder that killed the golfer?
It’s a meaningless question.
Lightning and thunder are simply different aspects of the same phenomena.
Our Mind and consciousness is the interior reflection of our living body ( both its interior housekeeping and external interaction with the environment ). We simply cannot have one without the other.
We are embedded within an interconnected web of life. We are creatures who are the direct product of Earth’s Pageant of Evolution. Why isn’t that reflected in modern philosophical discourse?
Learning to appreciate the deep-time of Evolution puts an entirely different richer light upon our interior existence. An awareness that encompasses the whole of time, and this planet that created us, and the pageant of creatures that preceded us.
It also gives us a deeper appreciation for the continuity of life. Life is good, life is precious, but death is no enemy, painful though it may be. Death is part of the cycle that brings forth new life. Revel in the pageant you are blessed enough to be witnessing. While you can.
As for God?
Who is “God,” but a creation of our unique complex human minds dealing with our day to days?
Where did God come from?
From human curiosity and wonder. From puzzling over observations, contemplating questions, seeking answers. From love and hunger and fears in the night and glorying in the warming sunrise. From contemplating the suddenly dead carcass of a loved one. From buried memories of being coddled within mom’s loving protective bosom and missing those who are gone.
From our need for someone truly personal, who’s always there, never dying, ready to listen to our constant chatter, ideas, complaints, fears, longings, wishes, all of it in complete confidence.
Think about it, our relationship with our god is the most intimate relationship of our lives and reflects our ego in every way. All of it, happening within our mind, or more descriptively, within our Mindscape.
Point being, we are the product of our Earth - and God is the product of our mind. That’s why our conceptions of God always wind up driven by our Ego, not by some outside force.
Nothing wrong with that, if only we could bring ourselves to explicitly recognize as much.
For some people these realities are jarring and resented, but that doesn’t make it any less the reality all of us exist within. For others, if these ideas resonate, take comfort, stay true to your gut instinct, do your homework, you’ll get there.
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