In summary - Who am I? Who are you?

Science and Technology
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Who are you? . . . . . . . Who am I?

I am an evolved biological thinking machine, the product of Earth’s Evolutionary processes.

Consciousness is a product of my biology

Consciousness is the inside reflection of my body communicating with itself, as it goes about its tasks.

Consciousness is like a cloak draped over my physical body, linked in a choreography until death.

Biology creating consciousness, is no more fantastical, than iron and a magnet producing electricity. Meta-physical skyhooks not needed. Humility and continued scientific studying is doing just fine in describing biological mental connections. (Deep thinking philosophers with their rhetorical logic games not withstanding).

Recognizing, then appreciating the, Human Mindscape ~ Physical Reality divide.

Recognizing that for us to exist at all, means that the universe and Earth flowed down one specific reality, regardless of what we humans want to think. (Our’s is to observe, not assume.)

Are science and religion simply belief systems of a different flavor?

Religion is all about the human mindscape itself, with its wonderful struggles, fears, spiritual undercurrents, needs and stories we create to give our live’s meaning and make it worth living, or at least bearable.

Science seeks to objectively learn about our physical world, but we should still recognize all our understanding is embedded within and constrained by our mindscape.

The scientific process is basically a set of rules for gathering and assessing our observations in an honest, open and disciplined manner - that all who understand science can participate in and trust because it is a community of skeptical experts who are always looking over each others should.

Science is predicated on the notion of fidelity to honesty and truth matters !

Religion is predicated on human wants and needs.

What’s the point?

Religions, Science, political beliefs, heaven, hell, art, even God they are all products of the human mindscape, generations of imaginings built upon previous generations of imaginings, all the way down.

That’s not to say they are the same thing, they are not! Though I do think both are equally valid human endeavors, but fundamentally qualitatively different.

Religion deals with the inside of our minds, hearts and souls, Science does its best to objectively understand the physical world beyond all that, doing its best to quarantine ego out of the deliberations.

Physical Reality is the physical world of atoms, molecules, universal laws of physics and Earth’s laws of nature. It is Earth’s dance between geology and biology and time and Earth’s evolving creatures, (and one in particular that learned to contemplate the universe and its short life), along with everything else around us.

Human Mindscape is all that goes on inside of our minds. The landscape of your thoughts and desires and impulses and those various voices and personalities who inhabit our thoughts. The ineffable ideas that our hands can turn into physical creations, that changed our planet.

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I agree but interestingly, unconscious patterns can also emerge spontaneously from a virgin or a chaotic condition.

Watch this and marvel at the spontaneous birth of patterns, purely generated by natural wave frequencies.

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spon·ta·ne·ous

  1. performed or occurring as a result of a sudden inner impulse or inclination and without premeditation or external stimulus.

Spontaneous sounds like magic the way you’re describing this video

Looks to me like resonance and interaction of wave patterns, not sure how putting a vibration into a surface can be interpreted as “spontaneous.”

At a job Iong ago used to have a coffee cup with a hexagon cross section, and once I left it, with some coffee & creamer on a table over the weekend. When I came back Monday the coffee level went down a little, but with this really cool amazing star pattern sitting on the surface of the liquid.

It didn’t take too long to realize it was caused by the slight seismic vibrations of the State Highway that was less than 100 yards from the place, and the creamer separating out of the coffee.
Just the result of the slight, but not so slight,( since I was sometimes able to sense the vibrations through my feet, particularly when loaded coal semi’s rumbling by) vibration from the traffic on the road, propagating through the ground and structure.

Or along the same lines, I had some wonderfully weird physical experiences up in the north Hermosa Valley. There used to be airstrip that offered glider rides. The tow plane would take off, sometimes even towing two. So taking off, then gaining altitude, the plane would be giving it full throttle down the valley.
I used to hang out in the surrounding cliffs, and I say,
I could feel the vibration of the plane’s engine,
transmitting through the air,
bouncing into the rock,
then arriving at the seat of my pants,
and also through the air and into my chest - as I watched the plane pass.
It was crazy, but ordinary once considered, a splendid spontaneous physics lesson, and oh so cosmic, it triggered some marvelous meditative moments.

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The vibrations are not spontaneous, the mathematical properties of the vibrations are causal to the self-forming of patterns at certain specific frequencies.
It is the mathematical essence of spacetime that allows for the spontaneous self-forma tion of specific stationary and dynamic patterns in the formation of emerging physics.

Symbolic Algebra Systems.

Peacock’s main contribution to mathematical analysis is his attempt to place algebra on a strictly logical basis. He founded what has been called the British algebra of logic; to which Gregory, De Morgan and Boole belonged. His answer to Maseres and Frend was that the science of algebra consisted of two parts—arithmetical algebra and symbolical algebra—and that they erred in restricting the science to the arithmetical part.

His view of arithmetical algebra is as follows: “In arithmetical algebra we consider symbols as representing numbers, and the operations to which they are submitted as included in the same definitions as in common arithmetic; all results whatsoever, including negative quantities, which are not strictly deducible as legitimate conclusions from the definitions of the several operations must be rejected as impossible, or as foreign to the science.” George Peacock - Wikipedia

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It doesn’t seem any more “spontaneous” than ripple patterns at the bottom of creeks, rivers, ocean shores, or desert dunes.
Particles are being stacked and knocked down, by kinetic energy, of other particles.
Seems to me a vibrating surface can be consider a sheet of particles.
Propagation requires those various particles interacting.

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[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:5, topic:10483, full:true”]

It doesn’t seem any more “spontaneous” than ripple patterns at the bottom of creeks, rivers, ocean shores, or desert dunes.
Particles are being stacked and knocked down, by kinetic energy, of other particles.

And forming regular patterns associated with specific frequencies of vibration.

Seems to me a vibrating surface can be consider a sheet of particles.

Absolutely. Now consider the amount of surface available throughout the universefor creating sheets of particles not in a random kinetic chaos, but in orderly and variable configurations. (Robert Hazen)

Propagation requires those various particles interacting.

Indeed, as is evident by the demonstration. However, the particles are guided into forming regular patterns by the wave interference functions on the surface and not from individual kinetic impact, because that would be chaotic, whereas the experiment demonstrates orderly self-forming emerging patterns dependent on the associated wave frequency.

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He, he…

Reality emerges as variable sets of stardust particles being guided by wave densities and frequencies. image

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I agree with you, citizenschallengev4, except I would add that I am part of the earth and the universe. While I don’t believe in a deity, heaven, or hell, I do believe we should only take what we need from the earth and give back what we can, without destroying her (animism, I know). I also agree with the Natives that water is life. The science says we are all made up of stuff in the universe- what’s in the universe is in us. Our actions affect others and our environment, so we have to be mindful of what we do.

write4u, what do you always have to change everything into mathematics? Not everything is about math. Science doesn’t constantly talk in terms of math all the time. Then again, I must admit I do have dyscalculia. I lived a lifetime with it and often joked that I have math dyslexia. Come to find out in college, it really was a thing and I really did have it, except in the 60s and 70s it was as acknowledged as it was in the 90s (non-traditional student), so I didn’t get as much help with it as I probably needed, but I did get enough help to manage my checkbook and daily numeric needs. Thus, when you start with numbers, my head swirls. Algebra and stats are the worst.

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Although a lot has been learned about those stars and the dust they created since he introduced us to the notion of all we know being made up of star dust.

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Because I can! Everything is about the interaction of “values” and that makes it mathematical in effect.

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Mathematics are a way to describe reality, not the reality itself.

Any medium, do precise it is, used to represent something, shows aspects of it but is not complete, and distorts what it shows.

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[quote=“morgankane01, post:11, topic:10483”]
Mathematics are a way to describe reality, not the reality itself.

Yes, that activity is called “observation”, i.e. personally or artificially assisted measurements.

Any medium, do precise it is, used to represent something, shows aspects of it but is not complete, and distorts what it shows.

I disagree with that. I would accept the proposition that we can only observe part of reality, but that does not mean reality cannot be analyzed and explained in mathematical terms.

Note that Mathematical functions are an inherent property of spacetime.

In 1930, a mathematician named Kurt Gödel proved the Incompleteness Theorem. Basically, the theorem says that in any “sufficiently complex” consistent axiomatic system, there must exist true statements that cannot be proven.

Here “sufficiently complex” basically means anything robust enough to be able to describe arithmetic (including addition and multiplication, prime numbers, divisibility, etc.).

So Hilbert’s Second Problem was solved, but certainly not in the way he intended. By Gödel’s theorem, we now know that mathematics necessarily contains true statements for which a proof can never be found.

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I don’t disagree : Maths can be used to analyze and describe reality.

Here also, we agree.

What I add is that Maths give a lens. This lens lets aside many things and so distorts what it shoes.

Maths can give us the distance between earth and sun, but let aside the beauty on a sunset on the sea.

Maths needs to be completed using other lenses.

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[quote=“morgankane01, post:13, topic:10483”]
What I add is that Maths give a lens. This lens lets aside many things and so distorts what it shows.

I’m not sure I follow that logic.

Maths can give us the distance between earth and sun, but let aside the beauty on a sunset on the sea.

No, that is a narrow view of mathematics. Wave functions are mathematical objects.
A rainbow is a mathematical object. Music consists of mathematically ordered wave lengths.

As long as something has an intrinsic value, it can be measured individually or by the effect it has on other objects with values.

Maths needs to be completed using other lenses

Absolutely, but all lenses offer enhanced observation via mathematically enlarging or selecting specific attributes to the original image.

Consider this use of a mathematical lens to allow a color-blind person to experience color and enter an entirely new reality.

And we are currently working on testing and cataloguing universal mathematics at sub-atomic scales, like the creation of bosons (Higgs).

.

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You are still talking about the ability to see and the math that describes color. You are ignoring the math the explains the man’s emotions upon putting on the lenses. Why is he happy?

Your fallacy is the Straw Vulcan

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The production of endorphins (action potentials) when experiencing a “new” reality!

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Not everything has to do with mathematics. You are treating maths as though they were gods, IMO. Mathematics is not Q. It’s not the end all and be all. It only helps/aids in seeing the world, but it’s not the sum total. If you apply maths to the sunset, you will miss the awe and wonder of it, making you Vulcan in nature, instead of human.

I love that talk and I agree, write4u is doing just that, which is what I was implying before I saw your post.

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An over simplified answer, leaving out many steps. Steps that currently have little or no data describing them.

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[quote=“mriana, post:17, topic:10483”]
If you apply maths to the sunset, you will miss the awe and wonder of it, making you Vulcan in nature, instead of human.
[/quote] That’s just false. You are denying fundamental Universal geometrics by attaching human emotions to it.
Are you saying that “knowledge” distracts from appreciation of beauty and leads to ignorance of the beauty of that which inspires the artists in the first place?

Objective thinking does not interfere with emotional responses.

That is speculative thinking. I have also applied maths to playing music as a profession.
I can guarantee you that Vulcans aren’t great musicians.

This type of debate always ends up in an anthropomorphized conclusion which is applicable only to the human psyche, as if it is a purely logical computer.

I speak of theoretical mathematics that guide the interaction of all values. If you believe that allows only a narrow perspective of the Universal then you do not quite appreciate the power and majesty of the mathematical function.

Religions are derivatives of observed natural mathematical order but attributed to some mysterious power. YES, AND THAT POWER IS MATHEMATICS!

NATURA ARTIS MAGISTRA (Nature is the teacher of Art)

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Emotions are part of thinking. There are not two kinds of thinking. You can’t separate emotions out while you think objectively. Math is logical and emotions are mathematical. The same machine (the human body) produces both, at the same time.

If you believe that allows only a narrow perspective of the Universal…

It’s you that has a narrow view. The controlled hallucination that was the agreed perception of reality was the human culture for a million years. They didn’t have the word “religion”, it was the tribe’s compass, their guide for daily living, how they remembered which plants to eat and read the weather.

We are specialized now because there is so much to know. It’s only a problem when religion claims to be science. Science might be able to put feelings in a jar one day, or attach an electrode to your wrist and help a schizophrenic live normally, but meanwhile, we need to accept our differences and embrace the heritage of our cultures.

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