The entire dispute with the Bundys is that it is government land. They were nice enough to let them stay without paying for it for now. My entire point was that the kids did not do anything “on their own". “Deep State" is a conspiracy. There’s no point discussing that with you.
We are a nation of process and law. The kids seem to know the direction of that better than you do
^
Mike (or Beltane), What the hell is “The Deep State” 
yeah, yeah, Deep state in the United States - Wikipedia
Guess I should rephrase that, What’s the paranoid tone all about?
What’s wrong with core concepts and basic continuity within our government?
Guess you like our Russian Obligate’s love for keeping everyone guessing and walking on glass chards,
shallow thoughts, erratic opinions and quick to overcompensate with consequential actions
does not seem like a constructive way to move into our radically changing future.
But, the alt-right they love the chaos. Be careful what you wish for, it’s known to bite.
just trying to understand your perspective and mindscape
§
I come back from a nice walk with Maddy, nice because she’s cool to be with and because I have time to mediate on life and our grand pageant.
When I’m not musing on Maddy and me and the changes these past 32 months with my new little shadow have seen.
For you old timers around here, these days she comes to me quite well, even stops at the neighbor’s fence when chasing a rabbit.
She likes to be with me and we’re definitely developing a mutual communicative relationship.
I like life and people, I've gone through life trying to recognize who not to trust and than steering away from them.
I've got decades of people trusting people and visa versa, agreements on a handshake and all that.
And its not necessarily about us "liking" each other,
I mean it takes a certain type of person to become rich and we certainly don't have much in common, but doesn't mean we can't respect each other.
Because it's not about that, it's about doing a job, being trustworthy, honoring ones' Word, producing what one promises, not pulling any bullshit.
The point is for me living and dealing with people is all about mutual respect and dignity, finding the good in people. Trust but verify.
And the few times I've gotten nicked, I took lessons out of it, and moved on a bit sharper.
Holding on to grudges does more self-inflicted harm than anything, they happen but again, I'd rather deescalate and
move on, older but wiser, and focused on dealing with today.
Can't do nothing about yesterday and tomorrow depends on how well you deal with today, so focus <em>dear wondering mind</em>. ;-)
Mike, seems like you inhabit a very dark mindscape, everyone (and thing) you disagree with gets morphed into some grotesque caricature that only brings out the dark and sinister. As though there's no awareness that your enemies are regular humans with the same range of emotions, fears and desires.
But, come on, who's kidding whom we all have our demons more or less sequestered and subdued, but its there inside of you and me.
That 'terrorist' who had his neighborhood blown away and who's run off to blow up someone else's neighborhood, that could be anyone of us,
but for <em>the grace of providence</em> and the shoes we inhabit.
Me, I'd rather strive to find the positive and interesting and good in people, aware of the dark sides, but appreciating the other facets of said person.
I'm happy to report it's worked out quite well for me, thank you very much.
Heck, I've yet to be screwed over with getting paid.
<strong>You know back in <em>da day</em> it seemed that even one's enemies would be respected because we inhabited a shared humanity.
What happened? Perhaps you'd have better insights into that than my tree-hugging long-distance perspective.</strong>
I mean in your world dirty tricks seems all that matters, blame is never accepted, mistakes never recognized,
and scapegoating is the number one defense to approach to problems.
Heck, take your comments in this thread, you just can't conceive of teenagers as developing entities in and of themselves, some have been paying attention and learning, these kids are on the cusp of jumping into adulthood, Now they got one hell of shove, but obviously some of these fledglings were able to spread their own wings and soar. Just because you never had that spark in you, stop assuming it doesn't exist in others. Time will tell, considering the ruthless viciousness of the attacks on the students I find their stamina and grace under fire every more amazing.CC
Because it’s not about that, it’s about doing a job, being trustworthy, honoring ones’ Word, producing what one promises, not pulling any bullshit.
I agree with that. The other day you post pictures of a remodeling job. Did you have to have an engineering firm figure out the CO2 impact of that remodeling job. And pay fees based per foot on CO2 impacts. No, I don’t think so. But with the items you are pushing, you will in a decade. In southern CA it is hell getting anything done. Took almost seven years to get a steel building built with no electric or water because of the permitting process. Took four months of paperwork to sit a small metal cargo container on the ground. Nine hundred dollars inspectors trip cost to view rebar being used in the required concrete corner pads. This was for a temporary storage building. How is your work going to be when the paperwork cost more than the actual job? There is very little building going on here by the small contractors because the cost of paperwork. You are wrong about the alt-right loving chaos. Just the opposite. Norway’s progress party has gain political power to be the third largest party. And they are centre-right. To be progressive, it helps to be correct on the issues.
You only hear what you want to hear. I said I don’t care what the kids demonstrate about. They can go to the park and demonstrate all they want. It is not right to demonstrate political viewpoints on taxpayer dollars. That is what has happened. I would be ok if they wanted to setup a debate for educational reasons at school. But it has to be done in an educational method and for educational reasons.
The kids program
- Throw money at research.
- Make government departments bigger and more powerful.
- Increase the paperwork.
- Change the number of bullets that can be fired at one time.
- Ban assault weapons. The AR-15 is not an assault weapon. Assault weapon have not been made for years and the high cost of the weapons already has them out of the market.
Right now, we are trying to reduce the regulations being used by the government. You may have missed that action going on because you are interested in what Trump is having for dinner to worry about what has been going on within our government. Assault weapons were banned for ten years and didn’t make much difference.
The Assault Weapons Ban: What Was It and Did It Work? - ABC News
There is nothing here that will do any good.
The entire dispute with the Bundys is that it is government land. They were nice enough to let them stay without paying for it for now. My entire point was that the kids did not do anything “on their own". “Deep State" is a conspiracy. There’s no point discussing that with you. We are a nation of process and law. The kids seem to know the direction of that better than you do https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/03/26/the-courts-say-the-parkland-kids-agenda-is-largely-compatible-with-the-second-amendment/?utm_term=.138cc5959b36When will gun-tragedies end. Simple, when another method takes over. Hand grenades are becoming more common in Mexico and Sweden today. You better ask yourself, if you live in some areas of the cities or states. If you don’t have a gun. You better have a gang. Those with guns don’t need gangs. As far as the Bundy and federal land. Most ranches use government land in the west. The government was wanting to collect grazing fees on land next to the Bundy ranch. The federal government owns 84% of the state. The Bundy’s have ranched the land for 150 years. They have around 160 acres. You need a minimum of 18,000 acres to ranch in that area. Now, legally I believe Bundy don’t have a legal leg to stand on. Part of our system is to be able to be judged by your peers. Bundy and six others were acquitted in Oregon for firearm charges. The government was shocked by the outcome of the trial. The public view has a lot of power when it comes to Juror voting. And that is part of the way the legal system works. The point was that without the guns, the Bundy’s legal outcome would have never happened. The cowboys were willing to fight and die for their beliefs of what the law should be in their eyes. In many ways it is like religion. People really don’t know all the facts about religion, they have a belief of how it is supposed to work. The same with land laws. Religion has god. The Bundy’s had Winchester. I think a lot of people understand that the land belongs to the people. And the Ranchers have been doing a good job taking care of the land for a long time. And they understand that the ranchers are good people who really don’t want to hurt anyone and would help you out if you need help. So again, is it, “We the People"? Or is it, “The Government"? Who is working for who? Ranchers are a group of American who receive very little entitlements. Today over half the U.S. households receive benefits from government programs. I think most hard-working Americans think the government needs to leave the Bundy family alone. And leave the guns alone too.
There is nothing here that will do any good.You believe what you want to believe
But with the items you are pushing"The items" I am pushing is honesty looking at the evidence. Not lying about what scientists are saying! and such ...
How is your work going to be when the paperwork cost more than the actual job?That's the greed is good trend at work there, don't blame me. Had things gone my way, we'd have powered down in all sorts of directions beginning in the 70s, from baby making, to our ravenous consumption expectations. Which would have created less problems; that would have demanded less new laws and regulations; that just cause more problems; because at the bottom of it all, nothing has changed, except more crowded and complex. Most f'n idiots think endless profits growth and increasing consumption is something to strive for. I see rat over-population experiments becoming living human reality. So please don't lay any f'n part of today's self-cannibalizing nightmare at my feet, greed, avarice and willfully ignoring Earth's physical reality are the cause. It's really that simple and I been complaining about it a long time, along with living fairly modest (for an American).
You know Mike another difference occurs to me.
You try to portray regulations and permitting requirements as some malevolent monster out to fuk us.
What about appreciating the reasons those varied regulations and permitting requirements were created?
Look closer and you’ll find most have some damned sound reasoning behind them,
of course no denying, a solution for one thing often makes other things more difficult and given human bad faith,
often more and worse problems are created by well meaning “solutions” to problems, but those are different issues.
Guess that brings us back to, Why the need for the constant demonizing, but I’m going to bed.
cheers.
The point was that without the guns, the Bundy’s legal outcome would have never happened. The cowboys were willing to fight and die for their beliefs of what the law should be in their eyes.There's a rather obvious flaw in your argument. Why did the Branch Davidian's guns not change their outcome?
The point was that without the guns, the Bundy’s legal outcome would have never happened. The cowboys were willing to fight and die for their beliefs of what the law should be in their eyes.There's a rather obvious flaw in your argument. Why did the Branch Davidian's guns not change their outcome? Your comparing cowboys to religious nuts. Doesn’t work.
Ok, let me spell it out. We are a country of laws, correct? Well, tell me what you think the law of the gun is. Is it a written or unwritten law? What laws does it represent or enforce? Please explain, you know most laws are just words on paper. Yet, the cops here have guns. Why do they need guns if they have laws? What are the percentages of countries throughout history that have had to use guns or other weapons to enforce laws? How do you look at the police force, as bullies or protectors? Do they have guns to bully us or to protect us? In a system that has used guns as an equalizing force for centuries. Why would anyone think that removing that force from schools and making it a safe zone would be a good idea? What’s next, will we have cops protecting the children when they are riding the buses to and from schools? Would we be talking about this today if teachers had been allowed to have guns? How do you locate a school today? Just look for a big building with police cars parked in front. That’s no joke in the cities.
I haven’t had the time to see why the killing happened. The first talk was that the kid was unbalanced. I remember back in Denver as a school child, of a school shooting taking place. The first time I had heard of such a thing. The reason the guy shot up the school was because the government back then was trying to force all children go to school. Today we have home schooling. I still don’t understand the medical student that shot up the movie theater in Denver. A fear is that some group of religious terrorists will walk into this country and hit a bunch of safe zones at the same time killing thousands.
The point was that without the guns, the Bundy’s legal outcome would have never happened. The cowboys were willing to fight and die for their beliefs of what the law should be in their eyes.There's a rather obvious flaw in your argument. Why did the Branch Davidian's guns not change their outcome? Your comparing cowboys to religious nuts. Doesn’t work. Actually it does work from perspective or a european. Even in EU is right to carry a gun right, but people dont go crazy about them - such as this movement which carries rifles to family restaurants to "excercise their right". I might agree that getting a gun in EU is harder, but its not because of background checks and stuff, it because of highly regulated market. There are limits what types of gun and how much ammunition you can accumulate. Also there is no such thing as "gun culture". Its not being considered just another commodity you can buy at any mall.
The point was that without the guns, the Bundy’s legal outcome would have never happened. The cowboys were willing to fight and die for their beliefs of what the law should be in their eyes.There's a rather obvious flaw in your argument. Why did the Branch Davidian's guns not change their outcome? Your comparing cowboys to religious nuts. Doesn’t work. It completely makes my point. The government decides when it will bring out the big artillery and when it won't. POC have figured this one out a long time ago.
Ok, let me spell it out. We are a country of laws, correct? Well, tell me what you think the law of the gun is. Is it a written or unwritten law? What laws does it represent or enforce? Please explain, you know most laws are just words on paper. Yet, the cops here have guns. Why do they need guns if they have laws? What are the percentages of countries throughout history that have had to use guns or other weapons to enforce laws? How do you look at the police force, as bullies or protectors? Do they have guns to bully us or to protect us?That you think these are rhetorical questions is why I don't bother spending much time with you.
Found this on webs
John Urie: "Ten shocking facts that everyone who thinks he needs an Ar-15 to ‘protect themselves from the Government’ needs to know.
- All your shots will NOT hit your target
- All ‘their’ shots will NOT miss you.
- The military is NOT going to change sides if you wave the flag and sing ‘God Bless America’.
- Your weapon is NOT superior to your enemies.
- They’re NOT going to turn and run when you open fire
- You are NOT going to automatically escape from a hit and run raid.
- You are NOT going to magically avoid hurting innocent people in the crossfire
- There are NOT as many of your kind as you think.
- You are NOT going to amazingly find yourself with unlimited supply of ammunition.
- Because, last but not least, you are living in the real world NOT a Chuck Norris action movie."
Maybe we can shift this conversation away from Mike.
1 and 2 are a bit hyperbolic, but 10 sums up the mindset. Thoughts of taking on the US government with some sort of guerrilla force are pretty far fetched. The guns and ammo they have now are legally purchased. If the government really wanted to take away all our rights, it would not be that hard to shut it all down. One guy I argued with said even if they did that, he builds guns in his garage, so he could do that. I pointed out he is still using a well regulated system to buy the parts and equipment that he uses. He response was, “yeah, well, uh, you’re a libtard”. Paraphrasing of course.
A fear is that some group of religious terrorists will walk into this country and hit a bunch of safe zones at the same time killing thousands.Well, that's extreme, but yes, that's a fear. If you have that fear, why don't you also have the fear that people already in this country, legal citizens, who bought guns legally, won't do the same thing? If you want to use scaring words like "religious terrorist" fine. Protestantism is a religion. Are you implying that all people currently inside the country are protectors and only those who will "walk into this country" are capable of using their weapons in a terroristic fashion? If so, lighten up on the caffeine, go for a walk, read a book, calm the heck down.
Lighten up, no way, we need to figure in the human factor. I understand what Obama was doing by trying to come to personal terms with religion in these countries that we are having trouble with. He just didn’t have enough backing. There is no defense against a drone or a cruise missile. You and I can go down and buy a drone and fly it into any building from a mile away carrying a killing agent. What is stopping us? There is no defense against drones or cruise missiles.
ICE today has 20,000 immigrants wearing electronic shackles. And this program is just getting started. I want to know if our government using the secret courts, how much surveillance was placed upon Mr. Gates. We know text, phone, and computer. But were they watching him by his computer cameras and phone cameras, TV? Your picture is now taken whenever you travel on an interstate highway. Facial recognition can now identify even the people in the back seat of a vehicle. At the rate we are expanding monitoring of our citizens. Guns may not be a problem in the near future.
Lighten up, no way, we need to figure in the human factor. I understand what Obama was doing by trying to come to personal terms with religion in these countries that we are having trouble with. He just didn’t have enough backing. There is no defense against a drone or a cruise missile. You and I can go down and buy a drone and fly it into any building from a mile away carrying a killing agent. What is stopping us? There is no defense against drones or cruise missiles. ICE today has 20,000 immigrants wearing electronic shackles. And this program is just getting started. I want to know if our government using the secret courts, how much surveillance was placed upon Mr. Gates. We know text, phone, and computer. But were they watching him by his computer cameras and phone cameras, TV? Your picture is now taken whenever you travel on an interstate highway. Facial recognition can now identify even the people in the back seat of a vehicle. At the rate we are expanding monitoring of our citizens. Guns may not be a problem in the near future.Once you start sliding down that conspiracy hole, it gets pretty slippery, doesn't it. "What is stopping us?" Um, I like doin' Netflix and chill.
Lighten up, no way, we need to figure in the human factor.Okay