When Left becomes fascism

Politics and Social Issues
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What is fascism ?

Fascism is a totalitarianism.

The individuals are nothing.

The Fascist state wants to create a new man, be him the Aryan, the proletarian, and so.

It means that the state must control every aspect of the lives of the citizens. Not only that, it controls their thoughts. a fascist state does not only asks obedience but adherence to his ideology.

The fascist state does not know any laws, except its ones, or impartial judge. It knows the will of the leader.

It needs a scapegoat, the enemies, the Jews, or any other group chosen as such.

It answers It responds to the expectations of the masses, in fact mainly of the petty and middle bourgeoisie.

“Fascism,” wrote Wilhelm Reich in 1942, “as a political movement, is distinguished from all other reactionary parties by the fact that it is accepted and advocated by the masses.”

the 14 signs of fascism according to Umberto Eco :

  • The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
  • The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
  • The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
  • Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
  • Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
  • Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
  • The obsession with a plot. “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.”
  • The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
  • Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
  • Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
  • Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
  • Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
  • Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
  • Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”

Is it possible to get a left fascism ?

Nazi party full name is national socialist party. Stalinism claimed it wanted to establish a proletarian and communist revolution.

Does it means they were leftists?

No as the totalitarian system frontally negates the ideals of left, the idea of human freedom and emancipation. Fascism and left are not compatible.

Can people from the left become fascist ? Yes, it happened. Mussolini began as a member of the Italian socialist party.

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One of the prime examples in rhe blog

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Flush it out buddy. Give us your understanding of the definition in the blog. Do you agree with carriers definition??

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I did that in the opening post, and most responses have not addressed half of what I said. Also, you use the classic disruption tactic of claiming that a slow response is equal to no response or that show some of sort scheming is going on in a back room somewhere. In other words, you just contributed nothing.

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I thought i would get a non answer. Hope for the best, expect the worst

In an extract from a letter Trotsky wrote to an English comrade, November 15, 1931, trotsky wrote there are several fundamental characteristics of fascism :

  1. Right Wing: Fascists are fervently against: Marxism, Socialism, Anarchism, Communism, Environmentalism; etc – in essence, they are against the progressive left in total, including moderate lefts (social democrats, etc). Fascism is an extreme right wing ideology, though it can be opportunistic
  2. Nationalism: Fascism places a very strong emphasis on patriotism and nationalism. Criticism of the nation’s main ideals, especially war, is lambasted as unpatriotic at best, and treason at worst. State propaganda consistently broadcasts threats of attack, while justifying pre-emptive war. Fascism invariably seeks to instill in its people the warrior mentality: to always be vigilant, wary of strangers and suspicous of foreigners.
  3. Hierarchy: Fascist society is ruled by a righteous leader, who is supported by an elite secret vanguard of capitalists. Hierarchy is prevalent throughout all aspects of fascist society – every street, every workplace, every school, will have its local Hitler, part police-informer, part bureaucrat – and society is prepared for war at all times. The absolute power of the social hierarchy prevails over everything, and thus a totalitarian society is formed. Representative government is acceptable only if it can be controlled and regulated, direct democracy (e.g. Communism) is the greatest of all crimes. Any who oppose the social hierarchy of fascism will be imprisoned or executed.
  4. Anti-equality: Fascism loathes the principles of economic equality and disdains equality between immigrant and citizen. Some forms of fascism extend the fight against equality into other areas: gender, sexual, minority or religious rights, for example.
  5. Religious: Fascism contains a strong amount of reactionary religious beliefs, harking back to times when religion was strict, potent, and pure. Most but not all Fascist societies are Christian, and are supported by Catholic and Protestant churches.
  6. Capitalist: Fascism does not require revolution to exist in captialist society: fascists can be elected into office (though their disdain for elections usually means manipulation of the electoral system). They view parliamentary and congressional systems of government to be inefficent and weak, and will do their best to minimize its power over their policy agenda. Fascism exhibits the worst kind of capitalism where corporate power is absolute, and all vestiges of workers’ rights are destroyed.
  7. War: Fascism is capitalism at the stage of impotent imperialism. War can create markets that would not otherwise exist by wreaking massive devastation on a society, which then requires reconstruction! Fascism can thus “liberate” the survivors, provide huge loans to that society so fascist corporations can begin the process of rebuilding.
  8. Voluntarist Ideology: Fascism adopts a certain kind of “voluntarism;” they believe that an act of will, if sufficiently powerful, can make something true. Thus all sorts of ideas about racial inferiority, historical destiny, even physical science, are supported by means of violence, in the belief that they can be made true . It is this sense that Fascism is subjectivist.
  9. Anti-Modern: Fascism loathes all kinds of modernism, especially creativity in the arts, whether acting as a mirror for life (where it does not conform to the Fascist ideal), or expressing deviant or innovative points of view. Fascism invariably burns books and victimises artists, and artists which do not promote the fascists ideals are seen as “decadent.” Fascism is hostile to broad learning and interest in other cultures, since such pursuits threaten the dominance of fascist myths. The peddling of conspiracy theories is usually substituted for the objective study of history.
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I thought this thread was about a specific article that Richard Carrier wrote?

… In particular, what they share in common is fascism—and/or its emotivist epistemology strongly driven by fear or anger. The word “fascism” comes from the Roman fasces, the bundle of rods and axes carried before magistrates signifying their right to beat or behead at will. The word has since evolved to reference the corresponding belief that force is an appropriate means of enacting your political will. If you believe this (whether you admit to it or not), you are a fascist.

Hence, both the right-wing and left-wing extremist want to use force (or at least, for force to be used) to effect their will—far more and more widely, and brutally, than their peers. Many in either camp endorse correlated policies like coerced censorship, and more draconian socio-political systems of punishment, and they both want to reign-in democracy with more authoritarian mechanisms of power—provided it’s theirs. This is why the fascist government depicted in 1984 is hard to peg as either liberal or conservative—Orwell deliberately meant that to be vague. …

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Just like anti-abortionists and anti- women’s health care, PETA, especially Ingrid Newkirk, do and say exactly what they are against. Ingrid is on record for supporting ALF (Don’t know if she supports ELF) saying, “If I had the guts I’d blow up them (labs) myself.” or something to that affect. To do so, would not only kill humans, but possible the very creatures she professes she wants to protect. Not only that, she doesn’t save any animals. She believes in killing more animals via gas because she believes they are better off and insists No Kill Shelters won’t work and they’d only be sent to PETA shelters. Allegedly killing thousands a year, more than anyone else. She spayed herself in her early 20s because this world is so horrible she didn’t want children. I can go on and on, but she is up there with the Orange Creature.

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It’s in writing. You can search for the words. That’s the same as repeating

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So, you googled it and cut and pasted it? And you call that an “answer”.

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Fascism requires fascist behavior. Democracy encourages evidence based cooperative behavior. In terms of our entire evolution, fascism is the law of the jungle and democracy is the rule of law that requires complex communication skills and tools.

Cooperation and fighting are both part of human nature. One of them is quick, a fear reaction, necessary for survival, but sometimes a false positive that can result in unnecessary harm. The other requires observation and slow thinking. It is also necessary for our species to have done as well as it has. It can fail, but it has proven to be effective in the long run.

The tipping point that Carrier spends some time on in this blog is when the slow process of cooperation appears to be failing so individuals begin justifying the quicker solution. A fascist politician does not campaign on a fascist platform at that point. Mussolini was the given example, someone who started out Leftist. The politicians themselves might not even realize they have given in to the desire to eliminate the people they consider enemies instead of working on eliminating the ideas that create and inspire division. They say they will solve the problems of the populous, they feel their pain, they have power and they will use it for the good. They end up creating more division, and cooperation becomes even harder to implement.

If there aren’t people being human who have hit the tipping point where they de-prioritize the lessons of cooperation, the feelings of compassion for others, the awareness of being part of something larger than themselves, their visions of their children growing up in a peaceful world, and prioritize the violent reaction, then the fascist politician can’t succeed. The politician encouraging cooperation and developing policies that require sacrifice always has a lot of work to do. The fascist leader merely encourages the impulse to lash out at anything foreign, anything that doesn’t look like them, anything new or different. When enough of that is happening, they can use violence against their foes, they can use language that denigrates, and it will be accepted as normal and necessary.

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Never mind, only took another half dozen reads to sort it out.
Rather convoluted, but okay.
If there aren’t people pushed over the edge, fascists have nothing to work with. Got it.

And if wishes were horses . . .

Oh and while we’re on that article,

“Yes, “wokeness” can be and has been carried to excess, and there does come a point where the legitimate desire to insist on inoffensive speech and behavior conflicts with the vital liberal values of free speech and free thought.”

can anyone explain what “wokeness” actually is?

“When students refuse to let a dissenting or even offensive speaker speak, they are denying free speech with bullying force.”

That’s a nice easy answer. Idealistic, cut’n dry. All speakers are equal. All “truths” deserve defending, even if no one is willing to frame that truth within reality. Instead, it’s alway, my truth vs, your truth - without recognizing that “truth” is meaningless without a specific framing, that the said “truth” relates to.

How else can it be with billions and billions of creature individuals who are all the center of their universe (to themselves).

The reality is a bit trickier, and so long as we remain firmly within our self-defensive egos, we won’t be making much headway on actually dissecting the issues.

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You identify the problem and are the problem in the same breath. A blog about crossing the line into bullying can’t stop and insert another blog about where the line for what is or isn’t offensive is, that’s up to you. He covers it with examples like Mussolini and PETA and gives you brief introductions and links, but it’s up to you to follow those links if you are not up on those examples.

Or, you could attack his long and thorough thesis on the subject and call this one line cut’n dry. You could ignore his body of work that has addressed the question of when taking someone out of society is necessary or when denying someone a platform is necessary. You don’t need to assume that he is talking about speakers who are published and have arguments and speak peacefully and take questions and openly debate people who have opposing views. You don’t need to assume that because Carrier has spoken to that.

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The way I see it; Fascism is against any “collective” and places all power on an “individual” person.
IOW, all forms of Imperialism, Monarchy, and Dictatorship are fascist forms of government except that Dictatorship is the only form without any kind of regulated structure and is purely subject to the will of the individual in power.

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Says the zen master.

Yeah, I’m dogmatic about my “truth” - which is basically about the most fundamental observation that can be made. I challenge anyone to provide something sharper.

Recognizing the, Physical Reality ~ Human Mindscape divide.
And insisting, it’s a benchmark insight, which helps make sense of all the rest?

Recognizing the inbred significance of evolution to me, myself, and I acting within a fast moving unforgiving day to day reality?

Recognizing how much current philosophy remains shackled to pre-scientific assumptions and intellectual insights that usually put us at the center.
(which is bad because it leads to today’s disregard and wanton destruction of Earth systems we desperately depend on for living the lives we love. That easy disconnect and disregard for really really significant existential scientific Truths, within the framework of Earth’s Physical processes)

Recognize that today Descartes knowing what we know today, would be among the first uttering: I Am, Therefor I think.

Lausten,
Show me something more fundamental, or relevant, to my (our) adventure of a lifetime(s).

I might as well finish my list.

Recognizing that your thoughts are a reflection of the inside of your biological body, dealing with itself and the outside world?

Recognizing that we create our own gods from within ourselves - along with all the rest of our wonderful and horrible ideas that weave the tapestry of life on Earth’ ?

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Was I dismissing or attacking his article?

If so, excuse the misunderstanding.
He writes well, his observations make sense to me. Of all the philosophical talking heads I’ve always considered him a cut above.

Yes, I quoted one line, that disturbed me, isn’t what this sort of discussion is supposed to be about? Then explained why. I’ve cooped to only getting half way through, but have every intention of finishing. Because I do take him seriously and consider his thoughts more than some of the other characters you have highlighted.

It would be wonderful for participants on this thread to focus on this particular essay - share a quote, make your observation sort of thing.

That said he’s still embedded in that historical academic matrix that I see as part of the problem ( The intellectualized thought processes that created {perhaps justified would be a better descriptive} today’s self-cannibalizing, biosphere destroying, global society), so you may be mistaking my criticism of that, as directed at Carrier. It is not.

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No. That’s not discussion. That’s pointing out one thing you don’t like. I’m never going to stop pointing out that you do that until you stop doing it on 80% of your posts.

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What is the reader to make of such? How does this help the conversation into what is fascism and more importantly how to fight it. ?

Mussolini was a socialist he says . So was he also a fascist at that time ? As always each response leads to even more questions. What is “too left” ? The reader again is left second guessing.
Carrier says fascism is the use of force to impose your will and then goes on to give the “heckler” as its example multiplied by the quote not all protest are “right” ( right in what way Richard? Right for who Richard) .

So then lets cut to chase .

Where the protests against netti 's appearance in congress last week fascism?

Is direct action in climate activism such as blocking roads, pressuring universities to stop taking FF money, occupying public spaces, disrupting coal shipment - fascism ???

Was MLK a fascist with his civil right movement that evolved into a anticapitalist critique ?

How about Mandela ? A fascist for fighting against the will of the people who supported apartheid?

Are animal rights activists fascists when they break into slaughterhouses and film the violence?

Was occupy wall street practising fascism when it tries to shutdown wall street?

Are antiwar protesters fascists ??

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Sorry you had so much trouble with the article. I didn’t agree with every word and I’ll probably review it again when i have time, maybe alter my view even. Overall though, I liked it.

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Well the problem is 80% of what passes for modern philosophy is the same old same old, repackaged and we’re still left with what’s really happening in the world.

So just because you refuse to credit any of what I’m trying to discuss, doesn’t mean I need to stop pointing out it’s relevance to how we as a society, approach these topics.

And there’s always the clincher - you gotta admit the past half century of current events has been more about grievous mistakes then ever before. Oh no that’s not so, Pinkert tells us our future is full of promise so long as we keep doing the same thing,

So deal with it.

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Interesting topic. I agree with Carrier on some things, but overall he’s missing the point that politics is not about reason, it’s about winning. This is a common mistake rationalists make when talking politics.

As for the Left becoming fascist, of course it has. The extremes of any movement will always dominate the movement until it wears itself out-- that’s how it always works.