In fact, top historians have agreed upon many of these facts for the last couple hundred years. But they don’t talk or write about them publicly because of people like you.
Way to go Tee. Way to make people not write things before you were born.
I’ve heard that song before, as well as the saying.
As for Jesus, if he ever lived, he was never a Xian and if he ever lived, the real Jesus is hard to find because he’s too buried in mythology. Very little if any of the story of Jesus has any history fact to it. Any history found in the story is too botched up with fiction. Let’s take the census- people of that time did not have to travel for a census. Just like us, they stayed right there where they lived. Just like the rest of the book titled The Bible, it’s all mythology and in the Hebrew text (O.T.) there’s even midrash. Bottom line, it’s all literature, so using the Bible in and of itself wouldn’t convince me of said deity. The same goes for the Torah, Quran, Tao, etc.
Mriana, the science is political and social.
The Hellenistic Age. The universities were now able to put a reason on the past histories and figure out what they could do to improve the systems of government.
The Hellenistic World
The great golden age of Athenian philosophy, encompassing Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle only lasted for about a hundred years. In the centuries that followed, changes in the political and cultural climate of the ancient world tended to discourage many varieties of philosophical thinking.
The Jewish Hellenistic Sadducees of Israel were most likely living in Alexandria Egypt. Thirty-mile road trip and a boat ride to the greatest city of the period. The gold of the period was olive oil and the metal mining. It was believed that olives could only grow up to fifty miles inland from the Mediterranean Sea. The Jews had spread out with the expansion of the new olive farming. After several centuries the supply and demand for olive oil had changed and it was not the gold it had been.
Jewish – came from the Religions of the Children of Abraham.
Hellenistic – Atheists who embraced science.
Sadducees – Aristocratic rulers made up of mostly rich landowners and the highly educated.
The Jewish Hellenistic Sadducees landowners may have had olive orchards and metal mines at different places around the Mediterranean Sea and had to deal with political problems of the different areas. What ever the problems of the area consisted of it would cost the landowners. The governors needed money to operate the civilizations in the area. No doubt the olive growers and metal miners had to bear a heavy tax. The better the civilizations the less the tax.
It would have been a great benefit for the Jewish Hellenistic Sadducees landowners of the olive fields and metal mines if Israel had a better governor and a better civilization structure. Governors were always kissing ass of the Roman Emperors with very expensive building projects in the name of the emperors.
Next, we have Jesus showing up. A Jewish Hellenistic Sadducees who takes up with the existing Jewish Christian system and organizes to establish a better civilization structure.
Jesus.
Jesus was going to take control of Israel. So, you would think he wanted to be the top judge. He did not. He wanted to keep the Hellenistic thinking that god (knowledge) was in the people. Thus, the people could rule themselves. Jesus wanted the best civilization system for the people. History had proven that the Rules of Law. Also called the Laws of God were the best system. The Rules of Law were written in stone. Not to ever be changed. The problem was the scribes were interpreting the Rules of Law the way they saw them. Jesus wanted that changed to what we understand as the Supreme Court system.
Sejanus, the second in command of the Roman Empire was ready to assassinate the Emperor Tiberius. Emperor changing in the Roman Empire could cause uprisings and wars all over the empire. Jesus was to take over control of Israel and stop any uprisings. Tiberius found out about the ploy and had Sejanus executed. Jesus had no protection anymore and was put to death.
Point being. Jesus’ changes in the management of the government and the control of the Rules of Law were never used. But we can follow the system to Europe where it changed laws and created wars. The progressive movement was said to be related to the ideas Jesus wanted to implement. The first time it was implemented was by our founding fathers. And today is the base for over 180 countries.
As you know, there are not 180 counties that are fairly operating in the world today. The problem is that system requires good morals. The better the people’s morals the better the system works. This was known in Jesus’ time and by Jesus. Jesus was pouring the moral foundation for his country that came from older religions in India.
Jesus’ moral teachings were what we call Gnostic today. Mainly it consists of knowledge and how to use the knowledge, wisdom. Which was part of the foundation of the Hellenistic system that Jesus was part of.
Fast forward a couple of centuries and we find the Roman Empire wanted to have one main religion. That would be one way of managing the civilization. They picked what became the Catholic religion. And it was made up of several religions. The moral part of the religion was Paul’s use of Jesus’ teachings and Jesus’ life according to what worked with the people. This was not put together overnight. It took several decades.
Today when we read about things like Leonardo da Vinci hiding secrets in his paintings. The secrets were just to keep the original Christian pathway alive.
Mriana, if any of this is not familiar to you. It may be because it is the Original Christian pathway before the Catholic pathway Americans are more familiar with was put together a couple of centuries latter. The first steps in using science with the bible would be to understand the religion before the bible came to be.
The reason is that our founding-fathers built America upon the ideas of the Original Christian pathway. America has been in constant wars and the Christian Bubble has grown strong. We need to reintroduce Americans to how our founding-fathers saw religion. Christian Science vs. Christian Deity.
1/2
Oh, Mike, my boy.
You have a particular sort of ignorant pride.
Again and again, people who know much more than you do — having acquired their knowledge from a wide variety of reputable sources over many years — point out certain facts to you.
They also point out that your assumptions about their backgrounds are simply incorrect. Like me. You just ignore all this and prattle on.
Our pleas for you to provide even a single link to articles where more details can be read (actual articles, not a link to a debunked book) go unheeded, so it appears you’re just pulling this stuff out of your ass.
You type and type indecipherable paragraphs of gobbledygook. Obviously, it takes you hours. But you don’t really “get” grammar and sentence structure. Still, I can practically hear your brain yelling, “You are WRONG! I read a BOOK! I watched a DOCUMENTARY!”
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Here’s the bottom line.
We know very little of history, for certain, until very recent history. Our understanding of Biblical times is pretty sparce, because our narrators were unreliable.
Who knows? Perhaps your version is correct. The problem is, the information that we CAN verify, based on credible information, suggests our version is closer.
2/2
I have a simple question, @MikeYost.
If I understand you correctly, you assume that all anyone here knows of Christian history is really a Roman Catholic bastardization, and that Americans are particularly limited in their knowledge.
Well, as I mentioned earlier, I was never Catholic, I converted from Protestantism to Orthodox Christianity.
My story is extremely complex, but essentially I was Oriental Orthodox. For 20 years, many of the people I knew were actually from Kerela (India), Ethopia and Eritra.
All these churches developed VERY separately from Roman Catholicism, and even from churches that later merged with Roman Catholicism. All these people have been culturally narrow. For centuries they barely communicated with the rest of the world.
Like other Orthodox, they never accepted things that the Catholics, and later the Protestants did – Augustine’s view of Original sin, Substitutionary Atonement, etc. etc. The Ethiopians, in particular, have a VERY old Christianity that still maintains some of the Jewish rules.
But their church is still based on a belief in Christ’s divinity. That’s their whole point.
So isolated from Catholic meddling, even from the rest of the Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox still worshipped Christ as God.
So, Mike, explain that?
(I won’t touch the Miaphysite/Moniphosyte controversy, which is mostly semantic.)
@MikeYohe I see philosophy in what you suggested, but not science or politics.
I didn’t just grow up in religion but I also studied and none of what you said ever showed in up in (state university) religious studies. I don’t know where you got your info, but it’s not something that shows up even in secular religious courses at a state uni. Now one may find it at a religious college, like Billy Graham’s college or something like that.
Mriana- what happened to David Silverman??
I don’t know. What happened to him?
Mriana, I can understand your point of view.
You say you grew up in religion. When was the beginning of that religion. As Tee has agreed her religion is 1200 years old. Yours is also 1200 years old. It is a deity religion. I call that the Christian deity pathway for discussion purposes. On Tee’s chart of the branching of religions. The big purple arrow points to the beginning of the Christian religion that you are talking about.
On the Christian Science pathway, the purple arrow is the point on the timeline that all most all religions except for the Niece religion were shut down and wiped out by the government of Rome.
The Christian Science religion started about 60 BC and ended around 364 AC. Gnostic books are mostly from the Science religion. Not from the Deity religion. I bet you never got into the Gnostic teachings.
Barrie Wilson is a professor of religious studies at York University in Toronto, where he specializes in early Christianity. His book – How Jesus Became Christian – was longlisted for the Cundill International Prize in History and won the Joseph and Faye Tanenbaum Award.
I tried to find you a good UTube to watch. Most were long. This one is only six and a half minutes. And I think it will answer a lot of your questions. This was in 2010. By 2014 Mr. Wilson had refined his studies a lot with the book – The Lost Gospel. There are major changes in his findings and thinking in the four years after How Jesus Became Christian. As this is cutting edge, that is a good thing.
Note, religion is a living subject. History is always being rewritten. For example, the Orthodox Judaism in Israel is trying to change the history of the Pidyon Haben to be tied to the mitzvah of circumcision. They don’t want the Jewish religion to be looked at as a branch of the Egypt religion. Some Orthodox sects are still calling it the redemption of the first born male. But they are leaving off a lot of the details. The Pidyon Haben is buying your first-born male back from the Egyptian Pharaoh. Part of the Pharaoh’s tax system. And the Pharaoh is being left off and not talked about. Israel has even stopped minting the ceremonial coin for the event.
And we have the fact that history was not always written correctly. It was written that Ramesses II had won the olive battles with Hittites. It turned out that he lost the last major battle. The battle of Kadesh and had to sue for peace. This is where Egypt had to give up Goshen. Which included Israel and Judah. But it took some time for the historians to figure this out because the writings in stone said differently.
It always seems to be the most logical reason is the right answer.
As for the science. The Hellenistic religions which would include Jesus’ religion was about managing civilizations.
Science and Western Civilization by William H. Young
America was founded upon uses of science and technology, in accord with societal ideals, to improve man’s material condition, with actualities provided by the scientific method, different from verities accessible through religious revelation and secular reason, the concept of Western civilization.
Mriana you would know better that I would what is the acceptable terminology for today’s usage.
The gnostic religion is knowledge used by wisdom for morals that support the Rules of Law which support the civilizations. To me it looks like one big science project from pre-history that is still being put together.
My viewpoints. Can we trust our universities with due diligence. We would not even be talking about this if we would get completely out of the Dark Ages with religion. In the 50’ our scholars set out to find the ‘Cradle of Civilization’ – the very first major civilization where man went from hunting and gathering to farming and building. And of course, that was Egypt. Then Jorden followed by Israel. Then it got moved to Babylon. Then by the 90’ it was the Fertile Crescent. This is quite simple. Go to area and dig in flood bank created long ago and find the first cultivated plant seeds. None of these sites fit the bill. So, today they are changing the goal and the meaning of the Cradle of Civilization. How sad is that?
Next we have the dog. I’ve talked about this before. 40 major breeds, all from Europe. Today, because of DNA it is agreed that they all came from India. The top scholars and universities sure jerked us around a long time on that one.
Point being. At the time of Jefferson and our founding fathers. The thinking was that all domesticated animals and most the human protein originated from the Cradle of Civilization located in the Garden of Eden. Which was in India. The First Civilization is now being researched as being in India. We have gone full circle to end up where Jefferson was in the 1700’s. But are we going full circle with religion to get back to where Jefferson was and what America was built upon?
As you can obviously see by now that my viewpoint is that when the Edict of Thessalonica was signed in 380. It was the start of the Dark Age and the rewriting of history and knowledge. A lot of history had to be destroyed. And that included the original Christian pathway. On the knowledge side the Age of Domestication had to wiped from history because it conflicted with the new bible and religious thinking.
So, why is it we can go to the moon and make computers, but we can’t tell you the history of how and where our protein was first domesticated? Why is it the Age of Domestication has not been put back in the schoolbooks? I will say that in the last decade you can find on the internet more data about Domestication and its timeline and being done in India. We seem to be moving there by the people themselves wanting to know.
Logic say that the Atheists should be forcing the Age of Domestication back into the school system. The problem is that the Atheists themselves appear to be in the Christian Bubble on certain ideas and they are unaware of this scenario.
If Jesus was right about god being in all of us. And god being knowledge. Then we should all have something to say about the subject.
The earth was not created for mankind. In fact, it was hostile and had to be tamed and domesticated. They say selective farming of wheat could take 40,000 years alone. And wheat has been domesticated for so long that DNA can not match it to the original wild grass it came from. Ten years ago, wheat could not have been domesticated in India. Because man out of Africa was only 40K years ago. Then it got moved to 50K, then 80K. Today it is 300K years and still going back in time. How much of our total history is mankind missing by leaving out the Age of Domestication - 70/80%. That does not seem like the right thing to do.
I wouldn’t mind your ramblings so much Mike if you wouldn’t claim to have scholarship behind them. The video you put up says he is not writing for scholars. If you want to speculate, fine, but don’t tell us we’re wrong.
LOL: just by coincidence (seriously), two of the podcasts I heard last night referenced “Holy Blood, Holy Grail:”
Ridiculous History
“Otto Rahn, The Nazi Occultist Who Hated Nazis and Inspired Indiana Jones”
Conspiracy Theories
“Priory of Sion & The Holy Grail,” Pt. 1 and Pt. 2.
Of course, both of them debunk it – the second one in meticulous detail.
@MikeYohe: The second podcast, Parcast’s “Conspiracy Theories” Parcast’s Conspiracy Theories, analyzes all sorts of conspiracy theories and separates fact from fiction. It doesn’t come from any particular political, religious or ideological viewpoint. It also explains the origins of the various elements of each theory. (Of course, the Priory of Sion was a scam for money from Day One, and was admitted to be such.)
As Tee has agreed her religion is 1200 years old.No, @MikeYohe, I said:
So if you want to get nit-fuckin'-picky about it, Mike, "my" Christianity was formed 1,600 years ago.Yours is also 1200 years old.
??? Before, you said:
Your Christianity was formed 400 years ago, based upon teachings that were up to 1,200 earlier. And those teachings were based upon writing that were created 400 years earlier?????
.
Lausten,
I wouldn’t mind your ramblings so much Mike if you wouldn’t claim to have scholarship behind them. The video you put up says he is not writing for scholars. If you want to speculate, fine, but don’t tell us we’re wrong.
Barrie A. Wilson is Professor Emeritus and Senior Scholar, Humanities and Religious Studies, York University, Toronto, where he has taught since 1974. Throughout the 1990s he was Chair, Religious Studies, Atkinson College, York University. He previously taught Ancient Philosophy and Logic at Saint Louis University in St. Louis, Missouri from 1969 to 1974.
Mr. Wilson wrote About Interpretation: An Anthology of Readings in Hermeneutics from Plato to Dilthey. Hermeneutics is the theory and methodology of interpretation, especially the interpretation of biblical texts, wisdom literature, and philosophical texts. Hermeneutics is more than interpretive principles or methods we resort to when immediate comprehension fails.
The he also wrote: Hermeneutical Studies: The Virtue of Interpretive Practice.
When the government has tried to wipe out all traces of history and facts on a subject. This is the type of skills you need to put all the missing pieces back together. Any atheists should be glad to listen to Mr. Wilson.
Don’t tell me you expected college classes on this subject. You got 350 years of religion that are not understood and agreed upon by scholars. We have findings that are less than sixty years old and some of the data has only been released in the last decade. We are talking the Hellenistic pathway. Not anything you would agree with. It is outside of the bible.
What did you think of Mr. Wilson’s idea that Paul never meet Jesus. That would help me with the mystery of why Paul never really understood Jesus’ teachings.
Your miles ahead of me in the deity stuff. Paul did a lot of gossip on Jesus. But did he ever write a gospel? No, of course not. His letters are called gospels but aren’t they really just gossip designed to fix a problem that some church was having? Paul said his job was to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles. And that he has been called to be an apostle. An apostle after the fact! All I see is Paul is pushing Jewish ways into a Christian movement and that he thinks the Jews will also come to express faith in Jesus. And I can’t argue with that, because we are talking Jews in the northern territory. So, it looks like Paul did the job he set out to do.
The problem is that parts of the original Christian pathway have been found and have just recently been made available to the public. And Jesus the man has different beliefs that Jesus the god. Both pathways can’t be right.
There is no right pathway. There were multiple sects from the start. Of course Paul didn’t know Jesus, according to his own account. It was Augustine who brought those letters to the forefront.
Tee, thanks for bring that up. I get in a hurry. It is 1600, not 1200 for argument sake. What we have is about 400 years till the Niece Christianity was formed. Then Europe had some wars caused by the Rules of Laws. And slavery was no longer allowed in Europe. The monasteries had big investments in the New World and the slaves from Africa were sent to the New World. These slaves brought with them the missionary religion they had been taught in Africa. They in turn taught the missionary religion to people of America. Thus, the New World had a change in religion that was different from the European and founding American religions. This happen about 400 years ago.
400 years till Niece Christianity, then 1200 years of European Christianity, and then 400 years of Maghreb type of Christianity. Just so you know where I got the 1200.
Lausten,
Mystery solved. Thanks. That’s logical. I know Paul had tough times and his works were put together years later for the bible. We sometimes use talking points like Paul hijacked Jesus’ religion. But of course, that is not the case. I think Paul was a good guy and was not trying to pull the wool over anyone’s eyes. That means Mr. Wilson was correct. Of course none of my friends or family will believe Paul never met Jesus. Another puzzle piece on the table for me.
@MikeYohe lol I don’t think The Church of God or the Free Methodist (FM) is 1200 years old. In fact, I know they are not. They developed out of the divisions that occured after the reformation. In fact, I can give you a bit of a timeline as to when The Church of God Anderson Indiana began. Like the FM church it’s roots are in Wesleyanism, but it started later than FM or the Methodist church the FM church grew out the Methodist Church. Church of God (Anderson, Indiana) - Wikipedia and https://www.jesusisthesubject.org/ My grandparents’ church CoG were pacifists until after WW II. They also use to have a magazine called the Trumpet too, but that is now defunct. So the church Tee use to attend is much older. BTW, none were based on science, not even the Gnostics based their beliefs on science.
@Lausten I feel the same way. He rambles and says things that shows he knows nothing. While some Xian religious sects may have formed 1200 years ago, some formed during the reformation and others, like the CoG, formed within the last 200 years. I think the CoG was formed 1886, definitely in the 19th century, which means, he shows what he knows when he rambles on about all deity religions formed 1200 years ago and 40K and 80k etc. He just rambles.