(to all - please pardon my sharing of somewhat tangential thoughts). And to our resident philosopher, what is your individual philosopher's perspective on "predestination". (Again, I acknowledge that this is only loosely associated with the topic of free will, and probably not relevant, at all, to CFW)You talking to me? "predestination" seems like a silly notion to me. But it seems to me the quips I keep hearing about this determinism thing leads me to view it as another version of "predestination" Where does the reality of making decisions, in a fast moving random world fit into this philosophy? I hear folks trying to tell me our decisions are already determined - predetermined - predestined? BY WHAT? My grandpa? :grrr: as some seem to be saying? Oh and, Isn't everyone who's engaged in, and thoughtful about, their live's and their place in the flow of things a resident philosopher? :kiss:
(to all - please pardon my sharing of somewhat tangential thoughts). And to our resident philosopher, what is your individual philosopher's perspective on "predestination". (Again, I acknowledge that this is only loosely associated with the topic of free will, and probably not relevant, at all, to CFW)You talking to me? "predestination" seems like a silly notion to me. But it seems to me the quips I keep hearing about this determinism thing leads me to view it as another version of "predestination" Where does the reality of making decisions, in a fast moving random world fit into this philosophy? I hear folks trying to tell me our decisions are already determined - predetermined - predestined? BY WHAT? My grandpa? :grrr: as some seem to be saying? Oh and, Isn't everyone who's engaged in, and thoughtful about, their live's and their place in the flow of things a resident philosopher? :kiss: I was thinking that Gdb was on this thread. But he's not. My mistake. I was hoping to hear his take. But thanks for your response, too.
...Well, it seems clear that such concepts have utility in naming something that we all have some, roughly general, mutual understanding of what we are talking about. But a BIG problem arises when we assume that there is some valid and complete EXPLANATORY function. e.g., It is easy to erroneously think of our "mind" in a homuncular fashion (like another little being inside our heads pulling levers or directing the neuro-electrical-chemical impulses) as actually, independently, existing and being in charge of what we do. So it is easy to say (and to erroneously assume as a sufficient EXPLANATORY answer) something like "He did that because he is out of his "mind"....And, indeed, it seems to me that the very concept of "the mind" or "the psyche" tends to promote a dualistic line of thinking.It would be fun to hear you explain that some...
The problem with the determinism philosophizing is that it crosses over into metaphysical realms that do a free human no good. That's a matter of opinion. Claiming that free will philosophizing also crosses over into metaphysical realms that do a free human no good, either. What, by the way, is a free human? we humans living here in these four dimensions, we're products of the determinism of countless circumstances, each offering many options that each leads down different paths, along with a fair share of pure randomness, yet somehow possessing a synchronicity. My grandfather's blood and some of his spirit infuses me; and his life was one factor in creating the particular polarized lens I view my life through. That is determined, but it's only a spirit among many influencing me. Every day is filled with choices and random chance and weird chains of events that can't be grasped but happen none the less. What is spirit? For instance, this morning I wrote the following post http://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/viewthread/17497/ about Grothe, re Massimo Pigliucci's interview, after writing that I returned to the talk, but found myself wondering over to TheRandiFoundation http://web.randi.org. I'm familiar with him since early TV days, and his great work exposing frauds influenced me. I was familiar with that stuff and he'd always impressed me. But, that's all been long ago, now it was fun refamiliarizing myself with him, while I was dealing with the denialist/contrarian mind and reasoning. Then I had to break it off. Had to pack for tomorrow's departure and trip home. Now let me go back a few days. I happen to be in Napa Valley on a work trip and this week they have their Film Festival, big deal around here, though I ain't going. I am after all a poor boy, even if I can clean up. I picked up the 1/3 inch thick large format event magazine, beautiful paper, excellent binding, and reproduction, classy all the way. Filled with ads for the good life and how it should be lived. I though of it as a souvenir to smile at, back home in the hicks, no inclination to participate in the festival. Back to today and packing, I riffle through the mag considering if I should bring it or leave it. All of a sudden Randi's picture appears. Full stop! Well what the hey. Some new documentary, 3 years in the making, about him: "An Honest Liar" is being featured at the festival. Then I look at the schedule and it's playing tonight, dang and not that far away. Pure change, leading to decisions having to be made, Now back up the chain of events this started with Massimo Pigliucci - Nonsense on Stilts leads to wrestling with the Demarcation Problem leads to "For Good Reason" i.e. JamesRandiFoundation leads to JamesRandiFoundation leads to recalling Randi and his struggling with/against "people's need to believe bunk" So by pure happenstance, this one time opportunity, presents itself. Of course, I'm predetermined to choose to get over there and watch the documentary. Determinism plays so much a part of it, but also a whole series of decisions I made about how to spend the day and where to let my curiosity take me, and lordie ;-) only knows where it will lead. In the real world, you must make choices with consequences, in never ending spirals that take you places, Adopting the odd sort of determinism I've heard described robs life of it's reason to be, the choices and making the best of the consequences is what our lives are, trying to transfer that off to some agency of "determinism" seems ... IMO, you think you made those decisions. That's part of the determining process. In fact, the decisions were made for you before you were aware a decision had to be made. You just assumed you made them because it seemed as if you did and you never seriously questioned it. So my magical mystery tour continues, I got to watch a fantastic documentary that turned out easily twice as absorbing and in the end compelling then what I'd expected. Even got to meet Thee Amazing Randi himself along with Deyvi Pena Tyler Measom and Justin Weinstein. I'm hoping I can put together a decent report to share tomorrow."An Honest Liar" http://anhonestliar.com/wp/It's coming out early next year I believe. If you get a chance it's worth watching! *****
... Also, I keep asking about the influence of random event's, no one has tried to explain how "randomness" fits into "determinism" - Care to give it a shot?When it comes to the concept of "randomness", Kkwan probably has a better grasp. He IS on this thread, I think. But as far as how it fits into determinism, my first thought is that it is another of the myriad of factors that impact upon what we do. I do know that in applied behavior analysis, the analyst often uses the terms "probability", or "more likely" or "less likely" as in, for example, "A response that results in reinforcement is more likely to occur in the future.