FREE WILL FROM THE GROUND UP

Humanism
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For all those interested in free will, I suggest you post your own definitions of libertarian free will and compatibilist free will or any other kind of free will you bring into a discussion, You all use certain terms but it isn’t clear how you each define them. Without clear definitions we can all agree on, we will never get through to each other and we wind up talking at cross purposes.
Please, if you agree to give your definitions, make them concise and write them your own words, as you understand them and use them. Don’t just copy an Internet or dictionary definition.
Also define causal reasoning as you use it.
Then maybe we can get a discussion of free will on the right path.
Thanks.
Lois

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For all those interested in free will, I suggest you post your own definitions of libertarian free will and compatibilist free will or any other kind of free will you bring into a discussion, You all use certain terms but it isn't clear how you each define them. Without clear definitions we can all agree on, we will never get through to each other and we wind up talking at cross purposes. Please, if you agree to give your definitions, make them concise and write them your own words, as you understand them and use them. Don't just copy an Internet or dictionary definition. Also define causal reasoning as you use it. Then maybe we can get a discussion of free will on the right path. Thanks. Lois
Libertarian free will is: Could have done otherwise without the need for circumstances beyond our control to have been different. Compatibilist free will is: Able to do what we want (this isn't enough but it's a start) Causal reasoning is: working out causal consequences of behaviour.
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For all those interested in free will, I suggest you post your own definitions of libertarian free will and compatibilist free will or any other kind of free will you bring into a discussion, You all use certain terms but it isn't clear how you each define them. Without clear definitions we can all agree on, we will never get through to each other and we wind up talking at cross purposes. Please, if you agree to give your definitions, make them concise and write them your own words, as you understand them and use them. Don't just copy an Internet or dictionary definition. Also define causal reasoning as you use it. Then maybe we can get a discussion of free will on the right path. Thanks. Lois
You mean LFW. This will be interesting to follow, so long as folks don't drift off to the question of execution. %-P
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Lois,
I gave my definitions a dozen times, I even formulated yours for you.
However you have showed not to be able to distinguish the different meanings. You more than once have told us you do not like adjectives, and you ‘cannot accept that we have free will’, whatever the adjective added to it. ‘Free will is free will. Basta.’ seems to be your position.
I repeatedly asked you to react on arguments of mine in other free will threads, or answer questions. Mostly you didn’t.
I will also keep a little on a distance from this thread, until I see blatant errors made by anybody.
If you want to discuss free will, I would suggest you look for open ends in the existing free will threads.

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If we were to look at Free Will from the ground up
wouldn’t we begin with an evolutionary perspective… ?
perhaps considering the cognitive leap
that moment in time when some species of ancient apes developed memory and recall,
setting in motion an evolutionary pageant that totally changed that creature and her/his body.
All the instinct and habits that needed to be developed in order to survive.
Free will within confining circumstances seems a more down to earth description of our actions…
But that was then and this is now
and there are a frightful amount of sheople out there who have relinquished their
potential free will and just doing/thinking as they are told and fed,
thank goodness they don’t represent all of humanity.

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If we were to look at Free Will from the ground up wouldn't we begin with an evolutionary perspective… ?
Starting from the ground up. 1) The term Free will is used to mean more than one thing. 2) It is right to assume determinism for the purposes of understanding the subject: One physically possible future we can get to from the actual past. This will really help if you follow it. 80% of the confusion is because people insist on free will being a term used for just one thing. Now in answer to your question, if you are talking about free will that it is possible to have assuming 2) you are correct. But be aware there is another version of free will you believe in because you think determinism would restrict your freedom and control.
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Free will within confining circumstances seems a more down to earth description of our actions…
Hmm you're going to need to square this with determinism some how, otherwise it is anything but 'down to earth'
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Free will within confining circumstances seems a more down to earth description of our actions…
Hmm you're going to need to square this with determinism some how, otherwise it is anything but 'down to earth' shit I'm still trying to figure out exactly what "determinism" means. :grrr: I have a world of possibilities before me… but not all possibilities in the world are open to me…
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shit I'm still trying to figure out exactly what "determinism" means. :grrr:
No worries, I've looked into this a lot as has Gdb, so I can definitely help as can GdB. My definition is good enough I think, so here it is again: One physically possible future we can get to from the actual past. Determinism is the way we ordinarily think about the world, let me give an example. Take a pack of cards. We realise all the different ways the deck could be arranged, we can assign probabilities to these possibilities. But we also realise that given the order the cards started in, given the shuffle, given the order they are dealt in there is only one possible outcome.
I have a world of possibilities before me… but not all possibilities in the world are open to me…
OK that's correct but what that means needs working out. In the broadest sense the possibilities open to you are 'all the things you can do if you choose to'. You'll find we narrow it down further but that's a good start.
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B.T.W I notice dougsmith logged on sometimes and if he’s watching I should give a nod of gratitude to him for patiently explaining a lot of this to me when I was quite resistant.

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B.T.W I notice dougsmith logged on sometimes and if he's watching I should give a nod of gratitude to him for patiently explaining a lot of this to me when I was quite resistant.
;-)
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Free will within confining circumstances seems a more down to earth description of our actions…
Hmm you're going to need to square this with determinism some how, otherwise it is anything but 'down to earth' shit I'm still trying to figure out exactly what "determinism" means. :grrr: I have a world of possibilities before me… but not all possibilities in the world are open to me… Determinism is the idea that our decisions are determined by factors we are unaware of--genes, environment and experience--which we have no conscious control over, that we can't consciously override those factors--even if we are sure we can, and that "free will" as an overriding force doesn't exist. We all like to think it does exist and we act as f fit does but it has been proven over and over again that it does not, that it cannot. Lois
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Determinism is the idea that our decisions are determined by factors we are unaware of--genes, environment and experience--which we have no conscious control over, that we can't consciously override those factors--even if we are sure we can, and that "free will" as an overriding force doesn't exist. We all like to think it does exist and we act as f fit does but it has been proven over and over again that it does not, that it cannot. Lois
Guess I have a tough time with the "determined" part. "Strongly Influenced" I can buy - "determined" simply does not compute. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ How does chance factor into this "determinism" ? How does choice factor into this "determinism" ? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mind you I find "free will" as in you can do anything you want, rather naive also - but I certainly believe that we have a degree of free that can be exercised - heck your mood on a certain day can make a huge difference in how you react to life changing opportunities. ______________________________________________ It reminds me of all the spilt ink on Nature VS. Nurture - becoming ideological battles more than observational reports Oh course, with advances in recent decades, it's become fairly clear that it's a question of Nature VIA Nurture, where the two are inextricably intertwined. ps. Here's a wonderful book discussing the issue. The 2003 - Nature via Nurture by Matt Ridley (of course it's got it's flaws, as a better educated reviewer pointed out - still it add some realistic detail that's been missing from that argument. Would be fun to see a revised version of the book reflecting on the past decades discoveries… ah, but I digress yet again. http://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/apr/19/highereducation.scienceandnature)
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Guess I have a tough time with the "determined" part.
Do think of determinism as one physically possible outcome, like with the playing cards. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How does chance factor into this "determinism" ?
This is not a tangent worth going on. Anything that happens by chance is out of our control so can't give us free will. But anyhow chance factors into determinism just like in a game of chance, like cards games, for instance.
How does choice factor into this "determinism" ?
Just how you'd expect, we weigh up the options and act upon the best option. What choice has nothing to do with is being able to select another option given the weighing up process, nor being able to go through a different weighing up process given the past. So determinists just say there is no extra element to choice that determinism would be a problem for. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
but I certainly believe that we have a degree of free that can be exercised -
Because (for starters) there are a number of things you can do if you choose to. ______________________________________________
Oh course, with advances in recent decades, it's become fairly clear that it's a question of Nature VIA Nurture, where the two are inextricably intertwined.
So the way you weigh up the options when you make choices is determined by nature via nuture, :-)
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How does chance factor into this "determinism" ?
This is not a tangent worth going on. Anything that happens by chance is out of our control so can't give us free will. But anyhow chance factors into determinism just like in a game of chance, like cards games, for instance.
How does choice factor into this "determinism" ?
Just how you'd expect, we weigh up the options and act upon the best option. What choice has nothing to do with is being able to select another option given the weighing up process, nor being able to go through a different weighing up process given the past. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Because (for starters) there are a number of things you can do if you choose to.
"What choice has nothing to do with is being able to select another option given the weighing up process," But, one's choices for the same situation presented at different times are not always identical. "What choice has nothing to do with… being able to go through a different weighing up process given the past" sorry does not compute particularly when the distant past is invoked even though every fresh day, with it's fresh experiences, gives added depth to our constantly growing "past"... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "So determinists just says there is no extra element to choice that determinism would be a problem in a card game." sorry does not compute ______________________________________________
Nature VIA Nurture
was a digression, pointing to another issue, where the defining poles have collapsed under a better understanding.
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particularly when the distant past is invoked even though every fresh day, with it's fresh experiences, gives added depth to our constantly growing "past"...
The distant past is invoked because it's right to assume determinism for the purposes of understanding free will.
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But, one's choices for the same situation presented at different times are not always identical.
When you say 'the same situation' you mean 'the same with differences'.Clearly there are external and internal differences each time you make a choice. So there is no 'but'. Determinism says there is one possible future we can get to from the past just as it was, so just the same, not the same with differences. Also be clear that determinism is not being argued for. It's that we should assume determinism for the purposes of understanding free will.
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But, one's choices for the same situation presented at different times are not always identical.
When you say 'the same situation' you mean 'the same with differences'.Clearly there are external and internal differences each time you make a choice. So there is no 'but'. Determinism says there is one possible future we can get to from the past just as it was, so just the same, not the same with differences. Also be clear that determinism is not being argued for. It's that we should assume determinism for the purposes of understanding free will. Yea, the head/word games we love engaging in. Sorry it still seems like a chimera, all about talking for the sake of talking. I'm into the more down to Earth aspects of life and knowledge. {For instance talk about the "reality of time" send me right up a wall. :red: } Earlier you said: "But anyhow chance factors into determinism just like in a game of chance, like cards games, for instance." And what came to mind was a card game where many of the cards morph as the game is being played… But what that tells me about life I don't have a clue ;-) wish I had more time to play with this but not tonight.
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Determinism is the idea that our decisions are determined by factors we are unaware of--genes, environment and experience--which we have no conscious control over, that we can't consciously override those factors--even if we are sure we can, and that "free will" as an overriding force doesn't exist. We all like to think it does exist and we act as f fit does but it has been proven over and over again that it does not, that it cannot. Lois
Guess I have a tough time with the "determined" part. "Strongly Influenced" I can buy - "determined" simply does not compute. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ How does chance factor into this "determinism" ? How does choice factor into this "determinism" ? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mind you I find "free will" as in you can do anything you want, rather naive also - but I certainly believe that we have a degree of free that can be exercised - heck your mood on a certain day can make a huge difference in how you react to life changing opportunities. ______________________________________________ It reminds me of all the spilt ink on Nature VS. Nurture - becoming ideological battles more than observational reports Oh course, with advances in recent decades, it's become fairly clear that it's a question of Nature VIA Nurture, where the two are inextricably intertwined. ps. Here's a wonderful book discussing the issue. The 2003 - Nature via Nurture by Matt Ridley (of course it's got it's flaws, as a better educated reviewer pointed out - still it add some realistic detail that's been missing from that argument. Would be fun to see a revised version of the book reflecting on the past decades discoveries… ah, but I digress yet again. http://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/apr/19/highereducation.scienceandnature) As for mood, yes it does affect us. But where does that mood originate from? Did we will it into existence? Or did it come reom factors beyond our control and knowledge. I don't think we can have a "little bit" of free will. We either have it or we don't. IMO, we don't. Lois
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But, one's choices for the same situation presented at different times are not always identical.
When you say 'the same situation' you mean 'the same with differences'.Clearly there are external and internal differences each time you make a choice. So there is no 'but'. Determinism says there is one possible future we can get to from the past just as it was, so just the same, not the same with differences. Also be clear that determinism is not being argued for. It's that we should assume determinism for the purposes of understanding free will. Yea, the head/word games we love engaging in. Sorry it still seems like a chimera, all about talking for the sake of talking. Well it isn't word games. Understanding that the same situation doesn't mean exactly the same situation makes a tremendous difference. Because we realise that to have done otherwise we would have had to have been in slightly different circumstances, or more accurately put the same with differences. But we werent And we are merely fortunate or unfortunate that we weren't. This is very down to earth.
Earlier you said: "But anyhow chance factors into determinism just like in a game of chance, like cards games, for instance." And what came to mind was a card game where many of the cards morph as the game is being played… But what that tells me about life I don't have a clue ;-)
Ahh well that's interesting. Imagining the cards morphing is just what it is to imagine that determinism isn't true. It's to imagine that things could have turned out differentlly with everything precisely the same except the result. It's weird.