10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
9 - You feel insulted and “dehumanized” when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the “atrocities” attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in “Exodus” and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in “Joshua” including women, children, and trees!
6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs – though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most “tolerant” and “loving.”
3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in “tongues” may be all the evidence you need to “prove” Christianity.
2 - You define 0.01% as a “high success rate” when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.
And unfortunately, that’s just the TOP ten
Wow! That was awesome. You should try to get that made into a poster or something.
I wish I could take credit for this, but I found this in one of my email boxes. A friend sent this to me in 2006.
I think some definitions are in order here.
First of all, what is a Christian? There are two kinds. A true Christian is a person who is in a relationship with God through the person of Jesus Christ by the infilling of the Holy Spirit. But there are also people who call themselves Christian because they attend church regularly, have read some of the Bible, etc. They never enter into a relationship with the Lord and, therefore, are Christians in name only, not in fact.
Secondly, what is a fundamentalist? Again, I think there are two kinds. There are Fundamentalists with a capital “F”. They belong to the Fundamentalist movement that started in the late 19th-century and early 20th-century that is often associated with Princeton since many of its proponents were graduates of that university. The movement was a reaction to what they saw was a moral erosion because people were abandoning the Bible.
There are also fundamentalists with a small “f”. These are people who know, believe and follow the fundamentals of the Bible. Everybody, whether Hindu, Buddhist, secular humanist, atheist or whatever – is a fundamentalist – at least, they should be! Everybody should know the details of the worldview/religion/belief system they purport and by which they live. If they don’t, then I think they’re in trouble.
I don’t think being a fundamentalist with a small “f” is necessarily a bad thing. After all, when I board a plane I hope the pilot knows the fundamentals of flying. When I ever have to have an operation, I hope I get a surgeon who knows the fundamentals of surgery.
I think it is the Fundamentalists with a capital “F” that give the fundamentalist Christians with a small “f” a bad name.
More definitions:
Polytheism is the belief in many gods. Christianity is the belief in one God who exists in three persons. They are not the same thing.
Love and tolerance – Christian love is not wanting anyone to spend eternity separated from God; tolerance is respecting people who don’t hold the same beliefs. Unfortunately, many non-Christians define love and tolerance as accepting anything that anybody else says or does without criticism. And yet, those very people who insist on that post-modern definition, criticize anybody who disagrees with them, especially Christians.
As for answered prayers, God has answered all of mine – not necessarily as I hoped all the time, but he has still answered. Sometimes he has answered them in surprising ways – ways that were better than what I had hoped for. Sometimes he says no. Sometimes he says not yet. But he answers all of the prayers of those who are in a relationship with him.
I’ll grant you the polytheism v triune god point, Overcomer. Your god has multiple personality disorder.
It hit me that I should also explain about the violence in the Old Testament as this is one of the most misunderstood topics.
God planned to implement his plan of salvation for humanity through the nation of Israel. Israel had this penchant for imitating the pagan nations around them. If it were absorbed by other cultures, then God’s plan would be lost and all of humanity would be lost. Therefore, he had to protect Israel.
God always made it clear that he would not put up with the pagan practices which were truly heinous. He always made it clear what he would do if people would not give up their evil ways. And he always gave them several generations to make changes. When they didn’t, he followed up on his warning.
It’s rather like this: Let’s say you told an Osama bin Laden-type figure that, if he gave up his evil ways, you would welcome him with open arms and forgive his sins. But you tell him that, if he doesn’t, if he keeps on killing and destroying, then you will have to find him and punish him. Let’s say he ignores your invitation and continues to bomb and murder, etc. When you finally catch him, would you be wrong to follow through on your warning that you issued? I don’t think so.
It was like that for God. He gave us free will. We can make wrong choices. He points out the right way and if we choose to follow the wrong way, is he to blame or are we? When the pagan nations threatened to absorb Israel, God protected Israel by removing the threat. Once Christ came, God no longer had to protect Israel because Christ was the fulfillment of the plan of salvation.
Then there’s the issue of hell. Let’s say the man who raped and murdered your sister, mother and daughter is brought before a judge. The judge says, “I am a loving judge. Therefore, I won’t punish you. I will set you free.” If a judge said that, I expect you would be outraged. Justice was not done. And the rapist/killer was free to continue to hurt others.
This is what so many atheists expect of God, saying that if he were truly loving, he would never send anybody to hell. But what they are asking is that God turn his back on evil and just let people get away with whatever they want.
Furthermore, we all have a choice. People who don’t want anything to do with God in this life will have that choice confirmed in the next – they will get to spend eternity without the Lord. That’s what hell is – eternal separation from God.
What about those who have never heard of Jesus? God knows who has a heart for him and who hasn’t. Therefore, he will make sure that anybody who wants to know Jesus will be introduced to him. God is fair and he doesn’t make mistakes. People are so quick to throw the responsibility on God so they don’t have to take responsibility for themselves.
One final comment: The Bible tells Christians to love their enemies. The Koran tells Muslims to kill theirs. That’s a pretty big difference in approach and I think Christians are right to point that out.
Thanks for clearing that up. It appears you believe there are forces of good and evil in the world and, for whatever reason, you’ve decided God is on the good side, so you cheer for him and fight for him as you see fit. We won’t be able to have much of a conversation.
I see the universe as neutral. It does not think about it’s future or have an intention. We do. We created the concepts of good and evil to sort out what to do and not do. It’s time we just got on with it.
It hit me that I should also explain about the violence in the Old Testament as this is one of the most misunderstood topics.And what follows is merely an exercise in begging the question and circular logic.
The problem is, we’re not talking about Osama bin Laden, we’re talking about women, children and cattle, as in
16 “Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 “But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you, 18 in order that they may not teach you to do according to all their detestable things which they have done for their gods, so that you would sin against the LORD your God" (Deuteronomy 29:16-18).
A similar command is given for the Amalekites.
Are you familiar with these passages? Do they bother you?
Overcomer:
It’s rather like this: Let’s say you told an Osama bin Laden-type figure that, if he gave up his evil ways, you would welcome him with open arms and forgive his sins. But you tell him that, if he doesn’t, if he keeps on killing and destroying, then you will have to find him and punish him. Let’s say he ignores your invitation and continues to bomb and murder, etc. When you finally catch him, would you be wrong to follow through on your warning that you issued? I don’t think so.
You should read Charlie Wilson’s War. bin Laden first proved himself on the battlefield in Afghanistan AGAINST THE USSR. He was on our side. Then we left Afghanistan to deal with the aftermath of war on it’s own. Meanwhile we put troops in Saudi Arabia, bin Laden’s home. So it was him saying we were evil. And if you’ve watched MTV lately, he had a pretty case. But we ignored him. Then we shot cruise missiles into the hills, sometimes killing innocents, not exactly good behavior on our part. But we ignored his invitation to quit bombing and murdering.
So who was trying to catch whom? It’s so easy when the God you grew up with happens to be the one who is right. Haven’t you noticed that there are billions of other people who think their God is right? If we just keep punishing each other until God sorts it out, there aren’t going to be very many of us left.
Overcomer…well said and written. You laid the info out plainly as we are asked to do not with much speech and fanciness of language as many use.
I agree with your basic idea of the differences in Christians. I see them as some professing and some possessing (the Holy Spirit). The latter have an active daily relationship with God and the others mainly come to church to “feel better” about themselves and other reasons.
So using the term fundie really has no affect. Most folks use fundamentals to play sports, do work, cook, etc and that’s just what it means.
This might help this thread: Fundamentalism - Wikipedia
Also know as the Fundamental Five Solas: Five solae - Wikipedia
P.S I’m using Wikipedia for easy convienient references. Not for it’s accuracy.
Overcomer...well said and written. You laid the info out plainly as we are asked to do not with much speech and fanciness of language as many use.Another Christian apologist who doesn't recognize logical fallacies and wishful thinking.
A man was once called delusional for having faith in Jesus. He replied, " If having a job that puts food on the table and a roof over my head, a caring wife and happy children , transportation, etc , etc then I thank God for the delusion He has provided that enables me to live this way" Amen
It hit me that I should also explain about the violence in the Old Testament as this is one of the most misunderstood topics. God planned to implement his plan of salvation for humanity through the nation of Israel. Israel had this penchant for imitating the pagan nations around them. If it were absorbed by other cultures, then God's plan would be lost and all of humanity would be lost. Therefore, he had to protect Israel. God always made it clear that he would not put up with the pagan practices which were truly heinous. He always made it clear what he would do if people would not give up their evil ways. And he always gave them several generations to make changes. When they didn't, he followed up on his warning. It's rather like this: Let's say you told an Osama bin Laden-type figure that, if he gave up his evil ways, you would welcome him with open arms and forgive his sins. But you tell him that, if he doesn't, if he keeps on killing and destroying, then you will have to find him and punish him. Let's say he ignores your invitation and continues to bomb and murder, etc. When you finally catch him, would you be wrong to follow through on your warning that you issued? I don't think so. It was like that for God. He gave us free will. We can make wrong choices. He points out the right way and if we choose to follow the wrong way, is he to blame or are we? When the pagan nations threatened to absorb Israel, God protected Israel by removing the threat. Once Christ came, God no longer had to protect Israel because Christ was the fulfillment of the plan of salvation. Then there's the issue of hell. Let's say the man who raped and murdered your sister, mother and daughter is brought before a judge. The judge says, "I am a loving judge. Therefore, I won't punish you. I will set you free." If a judge said that, I expect you would be outraged. Justice was not done. And the rapist/killer was free to continue to hurt others. This is what so many atheists expect of God, saying that if he were truly loving, he would never send anybody to hell. But what they are asking is that God turn his back on evil and just let people get away with whatever they want. Furthermore, we all have a choice. People who don't want anything to do with God in this life will have that choice confirmed in the next -- they will get to spend eternity without the Lord. That's what hell is -- eternal separation from God. What about those who have never heard of Jesus? God knows who has a heart for him and who hasn't. Therefore, he will make sure that anybody who wants to know Jesus will be introduced to him. God is fair and he doesn't make mistakes. People are so quick to throw the responsibility on God so they don't have to take responsibility for themselves. One final comment: The Bible tells Christians to love their enemies. The Koran tells Muslims to kill theirs. That's a pretty big difference in approach and I think Christians are right to point that out.All gods are human inventions, used for various human purposes; some good some not. There ain't any big daddy in the sky to bail is out when we screw up. We only have each other.
A man was once called delusional for having faith in Jesus. He replied, " If having a job that puts food on the table and a roof over my head, a caring wife and happy children , transportation, etc , etc then I thank God for the delusion He has provided that enables me to live this way" AmenThere are very few cases where I agree with this. Someone who has spent much of their life on drugs for instance. Someone who for whatever reason has had their ability to function normally in society stunted. If they find Jesus and quit disrupting the lives of others, I'm reluctant to intervene. But you are referring to someone who apparently has held their life together and is raising children. This is someone who should be able to at least consider the dangers of basing their decisions on irrational reasoning. I wonder how he decides something like whether or not he should support bombing Iran. Does he look at whether or not the decider prayed enough? Or went to the right church? Or does he consider the history of military interventions of the past? How does he decide how to punish his own children? Does he open the Bible and try to find a rule that applies to whatever they did and use the same punishment they used 3,000 years ago? Does he sit in a room with his head bowed, and hope the correct answer pops into his head somehow? Or does he read a modern book on the psychology of parenting? The things listed in this example can and have been arrived at by people for centuries, with no help from God.
7, add: destruction of the entire human race except for eight people in a supposed flood that covered the earth with water, which — well, where did it go when the flood ended? And how did those eight people manage to collect a mated pair from every species on Earth, put them all onto a boat for several weeks, then return them all to their native habitats afterward?
On what basis does anyone declare which Christians are “true” Christians and which are not? How does anyone who claims to live by the Bible square that seeming arrogance with the humility found in many places in the Bible?
The Bible says to love thy neighbor in some places but it also says to kill people for a wide variety of reasons in others.
I’m curious to know why a theistic Christian comes to this site, and what standards she/he brings to any discussion here.