Thoughts are not of material matter

thoughts are not of material matter,

I rely on that to draw the sharp distinction between physical reality-body-brain v. our mind.

Although a devil’s advocate can immediate counter: Are you claiming the electro-magnetic spectrum isn’t physical???

# Brain Waves - www.sciencedirect.com

With EEG, these brain waves are measured in terms of electrical activity over time and the relative dominance of different types of waves, e.g. alpha waves, can be identified.

From: Tea in Health and Disease Prevention, 2013

No I could never do that, though please note,

2.1.1 Brain Waves

Brain waves are oscillating electrical voltages in the brain measuring just a few millionths of a volt. There are five widely recognized brain waves, and the main frequencies of human EEG waves are listed in Table 2.1 along with their characteristics.

At a few millionths of a volt you have to admit it’s about as tenuous a shadow of the physical realm as can be, yet that’s the realm where everything humanity has ever dreamt up, has unfolded.

I don’t think the millionth volt nature of the dance detracts from my observation that the realm of our thoughts is qualitatively, profoundly distinct from the physical realm of Earth, biology and physics.

Furthermore, I believe recognizing that divide provides an intellectual benchmark that helps us assess the difference between serious science and pseudo science.

Why would that be?

A) recognizing and appreciating the Human Mindscape ~ Physical Reality divide.

B) recognizing that I am not a figment of my own imagination and that Earth is a real thing beyond my own existence.

C) Therefore, Earth and we must have unfolded down one and only one specific evolutionary cascade, or we wouldn’t be here to begin with.

D) Our human challenge is to learn as much as we can about it. Rather than to think reality needs to prove itself to us. Or that we need to define it.
Rather than being satisfied with perceiving it best we can.

What I see all around me is folks who are more focused on peddling their own ideas, it’s become careers and fortunes, and the great talking heads are overtaken by their own egos and start believing they are creating the shape of reality for us.
Hubris personified.
That’s the Abrahamic Mindset in action.

To repeat the thesis:

Recognizing that the divide between our thoughts and actual physical reality provides an intellectual benchmark that helps us assess the difference between serious science and pseudo science. Between serious scholars and egos run amok.

Table 2.1. Characteristics of the Five Basic Brain Waves

Frequency band Frequency Brain states
Gamma (γ) >35 Hz Concentration
Beta (β) 12–35 Hz Anxiety dominant, active, external attention, relaxed
Alpha (α) 8–12 Hz Very relaxed, passive attention
Theta (θ) 4–8 Hz Deeply relaxed, inward focused
Delta (δ) 0.5–4 Hz Sleep

Various regions of the brain do not emit the same brain wave frequency simultaneously. An EEG signal between electrodes placed on the scalp consists of many waves with different characteristics. The large amount of data received from even one single EEG recording makes interpretation difficult. The brain wave patterns are unique for every individual.

From: Tea in Health and Disease Prevention, 2013

[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:1, topic:9661”]
At a few millionths of a volt you have to admit it’s about as tenuous a shadow of the physical realm as can be, yet that’s the realm where everything humanity has ever dreamt up, has unfolded.

At that quantum level any threshold event is “detectable”. Penrose proposes that thought happens at quantum levels. Reality itself also emerges at quantum levels, no?

I don’t think the millionth volt nature of the dance detracts from my observation that the realm of our thoughts is qualitatively, profoundly distinct from the physical realm of Earth, biology and physics.

It depends on your definition of non-human “thought”. Does thought have to be conscious?

Remember the AI when asked if a falling tree made a sound if there was no one to hear.
It responded with “no”.
Then when asked why not, it responded “it was a thought”. i.e. a wave function may be considered a thought that can be heard when there is a listener!

How does a human hear sounds? Our brain consciously translates EM data of the wave
function into what we experience as sound, no?

Little cilia in the ear vibrate and send micro action potentials via the neural system to the brain. The brain itself doesn’t hear anything.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Structure-of-cilia-in-the-mouse-respiratory-and-olfactory-epithelium-A-C_fig2_281859636
# Structure of cilia in the mouse respiratory and olfactory epithelium. ( A – C ) Transmission electron micrographs of an adult mouse olfactory epithelium; ( A ) The respiratory epithelium contains multiple motile cilia on one cell; ( B ) Higher magnification of a cross section showing the (9 × 2 + 2) microtubule configuration of olfactory cilia; ( C ) Longitudinal section of an olfactory knob (OK) with extending olfactory cilia (OC); ( D ) Schematics of an olfactory sensory neuron (OSN) and its olfactory knob. OSNs are the receptor elements of the olfactory system. They are surrounded by supporting cells (SC) with a microvilli (MV) border on their apical surface and continually replaced by basal cells (BC) throughout life. OSNs are bipolar neurons with dendrites ending in an olfactory knob which has specialized sensory cilia responsible for olfaction. The mammalian olfactory cilium comprises the transition zone (TZ), the proximal segment (PS), and the distal segment (DS). The TZ (9 × 2 + 0 structure) is located at the base of the olfactory cilium between the basal body and the origin of the axoneme’s central pair of microtubules. The PS projects from the basal body in a (9 × 2 + 2) configuration. The DS represents the end of the cilium and contains characteristic arrays of singlet microtubules (from 9 × 1 to 2 × 1); ( E – H ) Higher magnification electron micrographs showing the different microtubule configurations of the DS ( E – G ) and PS (H) of an olfactory cilium. CS: centrosomes. BL: basal lamina. Scale bars: 500 nm ( A , C ), 200 nm ( B ), 100 nm ( E – H ).

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Structure-of-cilia-in-the-mouse-respiratory-and-olfactory-epithelium-A-C_fig2_281859636

In “E”, do I detect a microtubule tuning fork at the tip of the cilia?

(You say microtubules are present everywhere. So why assume understanding them is the key that makes human brain something extra special? Which incidentally you also tell us that it’s two genes melded into one that makes the human brain so special? )
Although I :pray:t2: you start its own thread for your response, because it doesn’t fit into this thread - which is about considering the unique character of thoughts compared to the physical world we think about.

Yada, yada, yada quantum dreams are a great way to avoid dealing with consciousness on a REAL level - Real as in creatures acting within Earth’s environment.

As opposed the quantum angels dancing on pin heads.

Frankly all that jazz is head games when you get down to it.
Unprovable in the end
and of little actual value in the day to day matters of our lives
and how we deal with our selves, and others.
You’ve still never offer any examples of how that quantum mumbo jumbo has helped us better understand the world we actually live in. The interactions that unfold around us during our dance with life’s challenges, and so on and so forth.

That’s a non sequitur. Where is “conscious” mentioned in that line.

This isn’t about consciousness, here I’m back to discussing the relation we have with the knowledge we possess and you just can’t focus on that instead toss all this other junk at me.

*Yes, junk in regards to the conversation I’m trying to have here.

An idea or opinion produced by thinking, or occurring suddenly in the mind.
vs.
Having knowledge of something; aware.

Diversions, sure they hold truths, but they are not what this discussion is about and I think you know it, but you can’t deal with what I’m discuss so you derail into the ubiquitous microtubules - as if they hold the secret to humanity! Why? Beat the hell out of me. But why else are you always trying to divert this discussion into your pet topic, which it’s offsides off what I’m trying to discuss*

If you want to discuss the difference between being conscious and having thoughts, lets do that, but that would require a trip down evolutions history and the start of another thread - Or at least toss out an interesting thought provoking suggestion that reveals some relevance to what I’m discussing, …but no instead you’re just toss spanners to gum up my workings.

So what!?!
Trying to mimic human thinking, still isn’t human thinking. let alone the dynamic between humans and their environment - which is what I’m talking about.

Why do you seem incapable of appreciating that?
Why, because (yes I’m speculating here) you seem to believe in human superiority and anything this mythic god that we love babbling about endlessly, can do - we can do better?

Me I’m currently occupied with the human condition and trying to understand the human dynamic itself! Rather than constantly looking for diversions to entertain and distract.

So what!?! What’s it got to do with what I’m talking about?

You repeatedly share things that I’m fully aware of, and that don’t help this particular dialogue one bit. My first grade, my first book fair, my first book I ever bought was about “My Body” physiology for the grade school set.

My friend you seem obsessed with trying to understand the tiniest mechanics and with an implicit implication that that will somehow define who we humans are, or something like that.
Yet, you never make it clear, instead opting to share every bit of microtubule trivia you can muster, as though that clarifies dynamic human thought. Or as though I’m totally unaware of their existence.

Microtubules have a lot to tell us about our evolutionary roots and the amazing connections between all life on Earth, and the mechanism of cells, including nerve cells - but it’s physics and mechanics and physiology and wonderful background information, about the fundamental workings of our bodies, but they don’t cover the human condition of what it means to think and to act.

The real prize for me is understanding myself and my place in the world, understanding that amazing dynamic between my body and “spirit” and the outside world.


I can’t remember you ever actually taking the words I write and dealing with them,
you never try to ‘see’ what they are trying to say. No instead it’s always: Yeah but …

Then you come up with physiology lessons,
Write, I am aware of microtubules and mitochondria (which doesn’t seem to interest you in the least), and the evolving mammalian organism and I digested those lessons to the best of my abilities, because I’ve keep up on science news and learned from it, so I possess the prerequisites to digest the ever more amazing finding coming out.

So stop coming at me with stuff that I’m well aware and have also digested (I admit you’ve introduced to me to many new and interesting articles that have deepened my understanding, but there’s noting revolutionary about any of it, it’s all of the same mosaic. Yet you keep acting as though we have some sort of physiology argument going on or something, but we don’t.

[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:3, topic:9661”]
*(You say microtubules are present everywhere. So why assume understanding them is the key that makes human brain something extra special?

For the same reason we have computer programmers who know how computers work.
Because we also know that when microtubules fail we get mental problems.

If we know how they work and we can fix them, we may be able to cure Alzheimer’s. Is that special enough?

Which incidentally you also tell us that it’s two genes melded into one that makes the human brain so special? )*

I’ll admit that is speculative on my part , but the fact that of all great apes only humans have a mutated extraordinarily large BENEFICIAL chromosome and we are the only ape with an extraordinary complex brain, it seems logical to draw the conclusion that the complex size of chromosome 2 in humans is responsible for extraordinary growth instructions of the human brain.

Incidentally, microtubules are responsible for chromosomes copying during mitosis.
They form the mitotic spindle that rips the chromosomes apart and deposits them in the daughter cell.
(See my thread on microtubules for the mechanics ).

I have a thread on microtubules and your posts bring your own unique character to it.
I welcome diverse perspectives. I had hoped you read what I post there.

[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:3, topic:9661”]
Frankly all that jazz is head games when you get down to it.
Unprovable in the end and of little actual value in the day to day matters of our lives
and how we deal with our selves, and others.

Headgames? And you are not talking about head games?

I can’t believe you are serious. Why have science? It is of little value in the day-to-day activity of “thinking”, right?

You’ve still never offered any examples of how that quantum mumbo jumbo has helped us better understand the world we actually live in. The interactions that unfold around us during our dance with life’s challenges, and so on and so forth.

I suspect this is an example of Abrahamic thinking.

The existence of the universe itself rests on quantum mechanics., but why should we even bother with that stuff ? It is of no importance in our day-to-day lives, right?

You seek instant gratification of meddling with nano-scale biology? We have just become able to look and study detail at that scale. This is an entirely new world we are exploring!
How many labs have electron microscopes? Not many researchers have access to
10, 000,000 dollar microscopes.

p.s. For detailed explanation of the "mitotic spindle"which is crucial in cell-division in our daily dance with life’s challenges (like cancer) see my thread on microtubules.

You just can’t let go.

Do we really?
Where are your papers on that - and please not another paper on microtubules and mitosis! When you’re supposedly to be discussing better understanding of our consciousness.

Here again I’ll bet you are elevating assumptions, and the usual PR driven hopes, to the level of certitude, when it’s no more than dreams at this point.

“If” “if” “if”
But, in this thread, I’m trying to talk about our relationship with the knowledge we have accumulated, it’s not special at all, it’s a disingenuous diversion is what it is. Besides being wild supposition, more science fiction that evidence based reality.

I think you do yourself too proud. I’m pretty sure it’s been written about by others. But not in the mood to chase it down.

So what? That’s irrelevant to higher brain function, it occurs in every Eukaryote cell.
I dare say most studies about microtubules are about structural aspects of their behavior and its consequences, as that behavior during mitosis.

I read what you posted and it’s old news I’m well aware of those outlines and it all besides the point of what I’m trying to discuss here. Thus, irrelevant.

Nope I’m not talking head games.

I’m talking about a fundamental observation that helps us establish a benchmark that leads to a bit more sobriety when we dance with all the knowledge we have acquired within our minds. Recognizing the distinct differences between your thoughts and the physical reality that creates your body.

All this in order to get a better handle on those head games we love playing. :wink:

I’m not talking about real physicists with their deep education and specialized knowledge pursuing the evidence.

I’m talking about the talking heads, the under educated, discoursing way the heck beyond their knowledge range, about this of which they only have the roughest clues, to lay people with even less of a clue.

What’s Abrahamic, is that it’s so impossible for you to conceive of what I’m trying to say.
All you can do is defend your certitude in what you “know”, even though I can see you don’t really know as much as you project. But you have a difficult time facing that.

WTF ? ? ?

And the humans in it are losing their minds.

We are lost in space and drowning ourselves in mountains of information has become a way to hind from what we need to be facing - how humans are destroying there own future at increasingly breakneck speed.

But you don’t have any interesting that, it’s the tiniest of tiny that fascinates you, seeking the unknown, while pretty well ignoring all we have already learned.

For the umpteenth time:
This discussion is about our relationship with the knowledge we possible and microtubules and quantum weirdness has nothing to do with that.

It is philosophical in nature, not physical!

Obviously you do NOT read everything I post or you would not be asking such a fundamental question which I have already answered several times.

But I’m glad to provide proof of that claim.

Enhancing microtubule stabilization rescues cognitive deficits and ameliorates pathological phenotype in an amyloidogenic Alzheimer’s disease model

Abstract

In Alzheimer’s disease (AD), and other tauopathies, microtubule destabilization compromises axonal and synaptic integrity contributing to neurodegeneration. These diseases are characterized by the intracellular accumulation of hyperphosphorylated tau leading to neurofibrillary pathology. AD brains also accumulate amyloid-beta (Aβ) deposits. However, the effect of microtubule stabilizing agents on Aβ pathology has not been assessed so far. Here we have evaluated the impact of the brain-penetrant microtubule-stabilizing agent Epothilone D (EpoD) in an amyloidogenic model of AD. Three-month-old APP/PS1 mice, before the pathology onset, were weekly injected with EpoD for 3 months.

Treated mice showed significant decrease in the phospho-tau levels and, more interesting, in the intracellular and extracellular hippocampal Aβ accumulation, including the soluble oligomeric forms.

Moreover, a significant cognitive improvement and amelioration of the synaptic and neuritic pathology was found. Remarkably, EpoD exerted a neuroprotective effect on SOM-interneurons, a highly AD-vulnerable GABAergic subpopulation. Therefore, our results suggested that EpoD improved microtubule dynamics and axonal transport in an AD-like context, reducing tau and Aβ levels and promoting neuronal and cognitive protection.

These results underline the existence of a crosstalk between cytoskeleton pathology and the two major AD protein lesions. Therefore, microtubule stabilizers could be considered therapeutic agents to slow the progression of both tau and Aβ pathology.

more…
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-71767-4#

Alzheimer disease (AD) is a member of a category of neurodegenerative disorders called tauopathies (Wang and Liu, 2008).

image
Figure 1

Microtubules in axons and dendrites consist of a stable region towards the minus end of the microtubule and a labile region towards the plus end, as well as a pool of free tubulin subunits. Microtubule severing is a normal event in the neuron, when tightly regulated. Abnormal (deregulated) microtubule severing is posited to account for microtubule loss in AD. Severing in the stable region of the microtubule would create two new microtubules, with fairly minimal disassembly of either one. Severing in the labile region of the microtubule would result in notably more disassembly. Severing at the end of the microtubule would result in disassembly. Because known microtubule-severing proteins favour the stable region of the microtubule, treatment of AD with a microtubule-stabilizing drug may mitigate disassembly that occurs as an aftereffect of the severing, but the severing events themselves would likely increase.*

more…

There are several pages in Google search alone that discuss the link between microtubule catastrophe and neural (mental) degeneration.

Alzheimer’s is just one out of a dozen or so mental degradation diseases caused by
microtubule failure.
There is no doubt that microtubules are intimately connected with brain functions and access to consciousness.

Accept that proven fact and the rest becomes a lot easier. This is not a belief, this is proven and applied science.

The Biology of General Anesthesia from Paramecium to Primate

Anesthetics bind to tubulin, causing microtubules to destabilize** [84,85]. They can also cause microtubule-based molecular motors, such as kinesin, to reversibly fall off the micro- tubule lattice and thus disrupt transport of vesicles, proteins, and organelles to synapses [86].Nov 18, 2019

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(19)31262-X.pdf