Microtubules the seat of Consciousness

What about our species? Are we any better than the Dinosaurs that ruled the earth for 500 million yers and ust “poof” disappeared.

I’m sorry CC, you are assigning special properties to humans that are simply unwarranted in the greater scheme of things.
Humans are jus another biological expression of natural evolutionary processes. Our complex brain was a lucky accident. Nature is magnificent without any extraordinary attachment of being “special”. We come from an ordinary species of great apes.

Be careful. Don’t mistake the metaphor for the reality.

But, let be clear you are speaking in metaphor and the reality of the complexity unfolding still holds some surprises, as this video demonstrated.

The fact that the ubiquitous microtubules also exists in Glial Cells
should not distract from the real news
that they are far more crucial to brain functions and in ways that no one was previously aware of.

You mean that we have cognitive function that are orders of magnitude beyond that of dinosaurs or any other creature that’s lived?
Heck we humans are driving a planet wide extinction event.
Ain’t that special enough for ya?

Or are you now denying all that? Or are you saying it’s just a distraction to truly appreciating microtubules.

and where the hell have I ever said differently???

But humans are also the only species who has stepped on the moon, or created ever increasing microscopes to the point that we can peered within atoms. Not to mention endlessly philosophizing about God and producing enough books to fill the Mediterranean Sea about it.

Heck, not to mention gossip columns along with lucrative careers dedicated to lying and stupefying via, raping and battering solid evidence and true facts to death.

Your habit of creating straw men is starting to be more than simple misunderstanding.

It isn’t a metaphor. The brain is the biological equivalent of an EM field generator.
That comes from an expert in brain function and an expert in EM quantum mechanics.

The fact that the ubiquitous microtubules also exists in Glial Cells
should not distract from the real news that they are far more crucial to brain functions and in ways that no one was previously aware of.

Glial cells are important because they perform maintenance (interoceptive homeostasis). They do not process sensory information… Any sensory date processing in Glial cells is performed by the microtubules inside the Glial cells.

Glial Cells

Primarily, glial cells provide support and protection to the neurons (nerve cells), maintain homeostasis, cleaning up debris, and forming myelin. They essentially work to care for the neurons and the environment they are in.Jul 8, 2021
https://www.simplypsychology.org/glial-cells.html#

You mean that we have cognitive function that are orders of magnitude beyond that of dinosaurs or any other creature that’s lived?

That is incorrect. It is not cognitive functions humans excel in . We excel in abstract thought, like the prediction of future events.

Actually, humans are very low on the sensory cognition scale and many animals far exceed our senses in specific areas.

Just make a list of animals that have sensory abilities far exceeding humans. It is a long list.

The reason is that natural selection favored certain species with extraordinary sensory abilities because their existence depends on a few selected highly acute sensory abilities.

The second reason is that all Eukaryotic organisms and animal species have the exact same microtubules as humans. It is not a matter of cognition per se, it’s a matter of processing the cognitive information and examining its implications.

We think much more abstractly than animals. We can plan days , weeks, years ahead.

Most other species are reactive, humans are proactive.

Heck we humans are driving a planet wide extinction event.
Ain’t that special enough for ya?

Or are you now denying all that? Or are you saying it’s just a distraction to truly >appreciating microtubules?

No, it’s just that microtubules don’t give us an advantage. All animals have them. It’s our complex brain that is able to make complex inferences and pre-emptive actions based on minimal sensory information.

What we lack in natural sensory abilities we augment by artificial means.

my comment stands

You’re missing my point.
Stop talking with such certainly. A) you aren’t an expert B) the experts warn we are in early days of discover, with surprises to be expected.

Excuse me for my inexpert word usage.

" Cognitive functioning refers to multiple mental abilities, including learning, thinking, reasoning, remembering, problem solving, decision making, and attention ."

Abstract thinking is the ability to understand concepts that are real, such as freedom or vulnerability, but which are not directly tied to concrete physical objects and experiences . Abstract thinking is the ability to absorb information from our senses and make connections to the wider world.

Besides, You don’t think our fingers provide our brains with a certain unique cognitive awareness, beyond what the fingers of primates, or hoofs of animals etc. can convey to the observing mind of said creature?

Abraham would be proud. It’s our brains that conquer.

Yeah and the team with the most points wins. Yippy.

That above being true, doesn’t at all mean that’s all there’s to it.
You are good at creating boxes and boundaries.
The body and brain and mind work together, every thing dependent on the other.

Your certitude in tentative understand is the same as it’s ever been.

https://www.researchmagazine.lu.se/2014/07/13/dead-ends-in-science/

These are full of over blown egos, and human centric assumption (a symptom of that Abrahamic mindset.)

… and are on a fast road to self destruction for our arrogance. This is the realm that I’m concerned with.

It begins with a better appreciation of the relationship between our knowledge and ourselve.
This in turn requires some deep thinking about the Human Mindscape ~ Physical Reality divide.

That physical reality being atoms, molecules, laws of nature, the biological - our Earthly realm which produced evolution and our bodies and brains, which in turn produces our mind, our window to the world.

Have you ever stopped to think about the difference between who you ‘are’ (spiritually, intellectually, emotionally), in relationship to this physical body that connects you to the physical realm?

Seems to me the first fundamental intellectual step before all that scientific information we cram into our minds can really start making any a holistic realistic Earth/Evolution respecting sense.

That’s why I see appreciating the Human Mindscape ~ Physical Reality divide as a sort of benchmark (first base prerequisite), without which the information we receive remains discombobulated like a series of post cards, rather than a deep down visceral understanding that grows as more pieces to the puzzle are collected.

I agree, our brain has not made us live more in harmony with nature. Quite the contrary. And we are beginning to reap the other end of Newton’s Third Law of dynamical action.

Our fantastic brain has not made us more “in tune” with Nature than a single-celled Paramecium that lives purely reactive to its environment.

That is the parable of being banned from Eden. It is one of the rare words of wisdom in the bible.

continued from Thoughts are not of material matter

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Open AccessReview

Spatial and Temporal Scaling of Microtubules and Mitotic Spindles

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Open AccessReview

Spatial and Temporal Scaling of Microtubules and Mitotic Spindles

1 Centre de Recherche de Biologie Cellulaire de Montpellier (CRBM), CNRS UMR 5237, Université de Montpellier, 1919 Route de Mende, CEDEX 5, 34293 Montpellier, France

2 Université de Paris, CNRS, Institut Jacques Monod, F-75013 Paris, France

Author to whom correspondence should be addressed.
Academic Editor: Vladimir Joukov

Cells 2022, 11(2), 248; Cells | Free Full-Text | Spatial and Temporal Scaling of Microtubules and Mitotic Spindles

Received: 23 December 2021 / Revised: 7 January 2022 / Accepted: 9 January 2022 / Published: 12 January 2022

(This article belongs to the Special Issue Cytoskeleton Dynamics during Cell Division)

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Abstract

During cell division, the mitotic spindle, a macromolecular structure primarily comprised of microtubules, drives chromosome alignment and partitioning between daughter cells.

Keywords: mitotic spindle; allometry; temporal scaling; spatial scaling; microtubule dynamics; embryonic development

1. Introduction

Metazoan development relies on biological processes that occur at very different scales, ranging from molecules to organisms, and that must be coordinated in space and time. During early embryogenesis, a succession of rapid cell divisions (embryonic cleavages) occurs in the absence of growth, leading to a dramatic reduction in cell size.

How cellular processes are coordinated and remain accurate along with the progressive reduction of cell size is a fascinating question in biology. The remarkable capacity of a variety of cellular organelles to adapt their size, number or mass to the overall cell size has been the subject of many studies.

Among the organelles that adapt, or scale, their size to cellular dimensions, the mitotic spindle has gathered the interest of many scientists from different disciplines for its key role in genome partitioning and its remarkable self-organizing properties.

The mitotic spindle is a conserved dynamic macromolecular structure composed of microtubules essential for the alignment and segregation of chromosomes during cell division [1]

more…

And what’s that got to do with consciousness, or thought?

All these self-organizing functions of data translation, processing and copying support the notion that an MT network qualifies for the role of information processing substrate with emergent conscious properties.

We are in process of examining evidence of potential field generating networks.
To my knowledge there is nothing in biology that comes even close in complexity , versatily, and commonality in all sentient Eukaryotic organisms as the microtubule.
Trillions of them all connected via synapses, the bulbous ends of microtubules inside neurons that actually are engaged in data transmission over long distances in the body.

When looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck, it isn’t a pussycat.

Suppositions based on some evidence and great deal of assumptions, seen though a biased filter.

On the contrary. This not my personal theory. This is my critical inquiry of a proposition made by people with much greater scientific knowledge than me.

I support all my “observations” with links to evidence provided by bona fide research facilities.

My statements are not based on speculation but on evidence.
It just turns out that all roads lead to microtubules. There is no alternate candidate.

Can you thinks of another organelle that is present in the numbers and networked systems other than our blood circulatory system.
Would it be speculation to say that red blood cells are the oxygen carriers of the body?
And even there MT play a critical role in cellular self-organization.

For blood platelets and other cells, this shape is maintained by the marginal band, which is a closed ring of filaments called microtubules. This ring is elastic and pushes on the cell cortex, a tense polymer scaffold associated with the plasma membrane. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1618041114#

If Tegmark is correct in his proposition that we have all the necessary fundamental ingredients for the emergence of conscious sentience, then I sumbit that in the absence of some magical external agency, microtubules are the only known perfect candidate to fill the role of substrate for the emergence of “thought fields”.

What are you telling me they are immune from suppositions based on some evidence and great deal of assumptions, seen though a biased filter?

Not really, you do stuff like articles about microtubules and mitosis, when we were talking about high brain functions.

Not meaning to be nasty, but seriously,
are you telling me evidence and speculation don’t go hand in hand. Mind you, I listen to the same sorts of lectures you’ve listened to.

There you go again.
Case in point.

Oh stick Tegmark, he’s a genius lost in his own genius, busy making his little fortune building a fan base, and selling articles and public talks. He’s an intellectual salesman and entertainer, every bit as much as he is scientist lost in the world of physics and cosmic dreams while forgetting there’s a planet down here, with living breathing biological beings, that also deserves a little serious attention.

He’s a hero to you - he seems part of the problem to me.

In the previous post I listed about fifty respected scientists and you just dismiss their work as his school science projects.

Do you know how insulting that is to people who spend lifetimes in furthering understanding of the great mysteries that present to us all.

All you have is some undefined principle of Abrahamic conditioning and mind/body integration with nature and evolutionary processes. Great, and what are you going to do with that knowledge?
Cure the worlds’s ills?

You offer philosophy. You offer no evidence, yet I respect your perspective and can identify with your thought processes.

I offer science. I offer reams of supporting evidence, yet you seem to totally disrespect my perspective and cannot identify with my thought processes.

If you offered constructive critique I would appreciate that. But all you do is reject everything I post without even offering a reason why you reject the evidence even if you disagree with my conclusions.

As philosopher please show the same respect to scientists as scientists show philosophers. Lest you be accused of having an Abrahamic mind.

Yes of course you would. You reject the notion that the universe is a mathematical construct, functioning in a quasi-intelligent mathematical manner.

When you look around you see nature , as do I. But you do not see the mathematical patterns that make up what you see.

The beauty and artistry you so admire are the result of mathematical expressions.
Balance, symmetry, spirals, fractals, what at first sight appears to be chaotic, on closer examination reveals the mathematical order that exists everywhere.

The hexagons in beehives:
image

the Enineering of a spiders web:

The aerodynamis of flight:
image|690x274

Rainbow:
image

Snowflake:

Everywhere you look you see mathematical expressions of “natural selection” for most efficient logical self-organisation.

Do you see this natural artistry when you walk outside? I do .

The symmetry of mathematical organization of complex patterns are expressed in you and me . your child, your pets, the anthill in your backyard, the flowers, trees, …-----------> infinity

Mathematical order is what makes the Universe beautiful. The mathematical order of harmonic wavelengths is what makes music beautiful. Our bodies respond to harmonic wavelengths.

Animals love music

The Mathematics in Art

image

To conclude, mathematics isn’t always evident in art, unless you discover it. But there’s plenty of symmetry, geometry, and calculation involved in creating beautiful art. Often, many artists benefit from mathematical observations, such as the golden ratio, to make their artwork realistic and breathtaking. Mathematics can also explain angles and perspective. Thus, there is a large amount of math involved in art.

Sources:

  1. The Mathematics of Art - Math Central
  2. Art and Math: Aesthetics of Calculations

The Mystery at the Heart of Physics That Only Math Can Solve

The accelerating effort to understand the mathematics of quantum field theory will have profound consequences for both math and physics.

Mathematics, which requires internal consistency and attention to every last detail, is the language that might make QFT whole. If mathematics can learn how to describe QFT with the same rigor with which it characterizes well-established mathematical objects, a more complete picture of the physical world will likely come along for the ride.

more…
https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-mystery-at-the-heart-of-physics-that-only-math-can-solve-20210610/

Microtubules process information at quantum levels,

I don’t care. I’m not diminishing their genius, but that doesn’t necessarily make them all wonderful humans, many have their heads up their keisters, with many big shots having monster egos, ruthlessly chasing their celebrity status, and profits. (Besides, there’s a difference between the scientist and the human inside)

You take grand umbrage at my lack of devotion, while I look at the state of our world and take grand umbrage at that.

Just as the state of my life is an indication of the value of my decisions.
LOOK at the state of society and humanity and this planet we depend on for our survival - From my perspective you’re proud of all the wrong things, at least when it comes to long time human welfare.

I’ve gone to great lengths to try to define and refine this shackling Abrahamic Mindset

Nah it’s too late to cure the world’s ills,
Especially when most everyone has their mind set on ignoring them.

I fear we’re entering the free-fall stage with one catastrophe building upon the next. There will be a certain hideous crescendos along way, such as certain major cities and regions running out of drinking water; crop failures disrupting supply chains, and governments, sea level rise and storms destroying coastal infrastructure that our global economy depends on. Waves of deaths colliding with each other. Our society will totally transformed and torn down. Globalism become a memory.

But, somewhere there will probably be equilibriums reached, some areas may well become refuges, Earth does have an amazing way of bouncing back. Thanks to some combination of environmental conditions and intrepid community (tribe) of humans with the where-with-all and can-do to prosper. There probably will be new communities making a stand in a totally brave new world of difficult and limiting weather conditions, still people are great survivors when push comes to shove. It’s possible.

Those people are going to need a whole different headspace and relationship with Earth and with themselves.

Seems to me, Today’s liberals are such losers because they got no soul, no grand vision,
they got no sense of who they are, or even what they are. Knowing factoids about microtubules can’t mend that.

Decades of quantum weirdness being marketed by philosophers to audiences that have never done the prerequisite homework to understanding what’s really being talked about, so any fanciful idea can be sold to them.

I’m long past the days of blanket respect for any class of authority figures,
I’ve been blindsided and profoundly disappointed by too many to buy into that myth. Older but wiser, don’t you know.

Before complaining about my “philosophy” you really should start addressing it, rather than all these distractions you toss at me.

JUNE 5, 2022
An Alternative Philosophical Perspective: “Earth Centrism” (1/5)

JUNE 8, 2022
Appreciating the Physical Reality ~ Human Mindscape divide (2/5)

JUNE 18, 2022
Being an element in Earth’s Pageant of Evolution (3/5)

JUNE 26, 2022
It’s not a “Body-Mind problem” it’s an “Ego-God issue.” (4-5)

JUNE 28, 2022
A distillation of my journey upon life’s stage, vintage 1955. (5/5)

What have you really offered. The details of microtubules, claims about how they are the answer to consciousness -
and getting pissed when I suggest the answers to consciousness lies in understanding the interaction of creatures with their environment.

TO REPEAT
Your response is to continue sharing yet more posts of the same, grand claims about how they have the answers to consciousness, but then you present another post about mechanical aspects microtubules.

I don’t doubt the importance of microtubules - why do you choose to ignore that!
I’m complaining about your tendency to over-simplify and over-reach with your conclusions (based on incomplete evidence).

Like do you actually believe you’re telling me something I don’t know?
Although mentioning math gives me a segue back to what I"m actually discussing,

The relationship we have with the knowledge we possess.

Since a great many great scholars will argue that Math is a human tool, that is a tool of the mind and thoughts, that is this “mindscape” I speak of.

You seem to insist math IS Physical Reality.
Something I would reject, I can appreciate math as humanity’s tool, not as nature’s secret.

[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:103, topic:9472”]

The relationship we have with the knowledge we possess.

Since a great many great scholars will argue that Math is a human tool, that is a tool of the mind and thoughts, that is this “mindscape” I speak of.

No, what most say is that the universe has “some” mathematical properties.
After all, our observations of “universal constants” are all mathematical in essence and can be described with human symbolic mathematical representations.

Human maths are the symbolic codification of natural “generic relational values” and their interaction via mathematical (algebraic) “functions” .

What Tegmark insists on is that the Universe does not have “some” mathematical properties, but has “only” mathematical properties, i.e. “values” and “relational functions” from which self-ordering and self-assembling processes emerge. I see no reason to reject this perspective as it does away with all mystical and spiritual explanations.

You seem to insist math IS Physical Reality.
Something I would reject, I can appreciate math as humanity’s tool, not as nature’s secret.

You have this backwards.
Mathematics is not Reality (they are abstract). Reality is mathematical in essence (it is physical)
Reality emerges chronologically via mathematical principles.

Reality is an emergent phenomenon. It does so via mathematical “guiding principles”.
This process has a “quasi-intelligent” aspect to it and is the reason why and how religions emerged from the observation of the “unfolding physical explicate” of regular chronologies and patterns from the “enfolded implicate potentials” of natural values arranged in patterns of varying densities (matter).

As you correctly observed the generic mathematical guiding principles are via simple mathematical native values and functional equations. This is the essence of “stochastic determinism”

The difficulty lies in the actual numbers that are incalculable in sheer volume when broken down to their fundamental simplicity.

There is no “irreducible complexity”, it all started from an energetic singularity, the BB and the consequent Inflationary Epoch whence natural values (patterns) and their regular mathematical interaction (forces) emerged from Chaos.

The Universe functions via the dynamics of “differential equations”, which are the logical mathematical rules that physical processes must follow.

There is substantial proof of this universal chronology and the interpretation of every observational processes thereafter can be symbolized and codified with “human mathematics”.

To my knowledge there is no other logical explanation possible, without encountering contradictions and paradoxes.

The mathematics of spacetime keeps things apart and keeps them from happening all at once.

Ordinary Differential Equations (ODEs)

Differential equations are important because for many physical systems, one can, subject to suitable idealizations, formulate a differential equation that describes how the system changes in time. Understanding the solutions of the differential equation is then of paramount interest.

The simplest ODE is:

DE

You can verify that any function

y(t) = Cekt

where C is a constant, is a solution to this ODE. If k > 0, this ODE thus describes exponential growth (for example, unrestricted population growth). If k < 0, the interpretation is exponential decay (for example, the decay of radioactive atoms).

In many applications you will encounter the ODE:

ODE

where ω is a constant.

You can verify that any function

y(t) = A sin(ωt + ø) ,

where A and ø are constants, is a solution. This ODE thus describes a physical system whose behaviour is periodic in time. We say that the system undergoes simple harmonic motion with amplitude A, frequency ω, and phase ø.

In the foundational courses on ODEs you will learn to identify whether an ODE can be solved explicitly (most cannot!), or whether it is necessary to solve it numerically using a computer.

Great and humans use it as a tool to grasp natural secrets.

And you still don’t grasp what this particular string of words means:

[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:105, topic:9472”]
Great and humans use it as a tool to grasp natural secrets.

Yes and that means nature used to have secrets that we did not understand until we discovered that the secrets were mathematical. Then we understood and learned to speak the mathematical language. Well, the human dialect of the language… :face_with_monocle:

And you still don’t grasp what this particular string of words means:

[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:103, topic:9472”]
The relationship we have with the knowledge we possess.

Actually, we do not understand the awesome power we acquired with gaining knowledge.
The practical application of our knowledge is beginning to ruin the natural balance because we use our knowledge for making a new environment rather than adapting to the existing environment.

Nature does not like to be disturbed. Its mathematical nature demands that for every human action there must be an equal and opposite reaction by nature. The science community is beginning to understand this, even as the business community seems to be oblivious to the chaos they are creating.

That’s a cop out. :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

Where in the world did you come with that one?
Please explain.

You’re really stretching. Isn’t it a fundamental law of nature for every action their is an equal reaction. So what’s the point here?

So now we have another neat catagorization - science and business. Sort of like the separate categories of science and religion. Lordie don’t we know how well that division works. Seems to me history demonstrates that science and business are linked about as much as conjoined twins are.

Over simplification and over stating the facts.

'nough said.

That’s what it comes down to.

What you call cop-outs, stretching fundamental laws, neat categorization, and over-simplification are the reason we are in the midst of the 6th extinction event.

No amount of sophistry is going to change these simple facts.

Look and consider each of these simple facts and ask what they are responsible for in their own right.

You cannot wish away the simple laws of nature. Disturb the balance long enough and you will pay the price of what theists call “mortal sins”.

You cannot alter the logic of the physics. That’s why they are called 'universal constants"!

Let me remind you of the results of these SIMPLE facts I cited.

ENVIRONMENT

2,674,357 Forest loss [this year] (hectares)

3,600,408 Land lost to soil erosion [this year] (ha)

18,725,296,774 CO2 emissions [this year] (tons)

6,170,969 Desertification [this year] (hectares)

5,035,705 Toxic chemicals released in the environment [this year] (tons)

FOOD

862,014,154 Undernourished people in the world

1,729,703,356 Overweight people in the world

812,835,278 Obese people in the world

22,996 People who died of hunger [today]

$ 468,691,104 Money spent for obesity-related diseases in the USA [today]

$ 142,155,409 Money spent on weight loss programs in the USA [today]

WATER

2,316,546,578 Water used [this year] (million L)

433,022 Deaths caused by water related diseases [this year]

780,902,996 People with no access to a safe drinking water source

ENERGY

350,978,591 Energy used today (MWh), of which:

298,772,795- from non-renewable sources (MWh)

52,854,315- from renewable sources (MWh)

2,199,249,296,623 Solar energy striking Earth [today] (MWh)

71,985,631 Oil pumped today (barrels)

1,433,648,524,930 Oil left (barrels)

14,951 Days to the end of oil (~41 years)

1,081,032,541,085 Natural Gas left (boe)

56,896 Days to the end of natural gas

4,293,867,880,930 Coal left (boe)

148,064 Days to the end of coal

HEALTH

6,675,595 Communicable disease deaths [this year]

256,078 Seasonal flu deaths [this year]

3,908,694 Deaths of children under 5 [this year]

21,975,290 Abortions [this year]

158,943 Deaths of mothers during birth [this year]

43,767,474 HIV/AIDS infected people

864,454 Deaths caused by HIV/AIDS [this year]

4,223,335 Deaths caused by cancer [this year]

202,782 Deaths caused by malaria [this year]

11,486,622,022 Cigarettes smoked [today]

2,570,655 Deaths caused by smoking [this year]

1,286,139 Deaths caused by alcohol [this year]

551,434 Suicides [this year]

$ 205,717,301,006 Money spent on illegal drugs [this year]

694,158 Road traffic accident fatalities [this year]