The point of life/living

[inthedarkness]

@citizenschallengev4

Then I listen to you and am sad because you are an example of a child who’s caregivers failed him, no matter their intent, good or bad, the bottom line is the time spent with kids and the nurturing they receive.

Nope, my caregivers didn’t fail me. The fact is I just woke up to what life is like. Everyone does sooner or later.

@citizenschallengev4

It’s worth thinking about. Any time this is brought up, it’s like with Thomas Malthus, objections and rationalizations are brought up to dismiss this study and associated thought experiments in our minds. But from my over half century of being an attentive witness to world events, all the evidence is pointing to us being no more advanced than rats, when it really comes down to the nitty gritty of our nature and what happens when we get over-crowded.

The rat park study doesn’t tell us anything about humans for several reasons. It wasn’t able to be replicated and methodological errors in the original. In short it means nothing.

@citizenschallengev4

That bizarre where do you get that idea? Can you explain?

You are saying there is no difference between physical reality, atoms, molecules, chemistry, biology, the rules they follow - vs - the thoughts your body/mind produces and that you hold within your mind?

Does the notion that you are an evolved biological creature, the product of Earth’s processes make any sense to you?

IF you can’t figure it out there is nothing to really say on it. The reality unfolding beyond our bodies is based on the thoughts we play for ourselves in our heads. Our brains create a model of reality, not the actual thing and that model is influence by what we know and think. Even what we believe reality to be or work like is a story we tell ourselves.

Science admits this, saying that what it has is only provisional, but it’s a good start and has a lot of support and lets us do a lot of things because of it. However it’s still ultimately provisional, a story we tell based on data we get. It could all be wrong.

Even the thoughts you produce is just chemicals and brain chemistry, same with the “mind”. What we call “mind” is really just the brain.

So really there is no difference between the two.

[lausten]

@inthedarkness

The rat park study doesn’t tell us anything

Every now and then you get one right.

@inthedarkness

is just chemicals and brain chemistry

Whenever someone uses the words “it’s just”, it’s almost always a compositional fallacy.
Fallacy of composition - Wikipedia

[citizenschallengev4]

@inthedarkness

The fact is I just woke up to what life is like.

So can you condense “what life is like” into an explanatory sentence or two?

And would you be referring to all life, or just the human sphere?

@inthedarkness

The rat park study doesn’t tell us anything about humans for several reasons. It wasn’t able to be replicated and methodological errors in the original. In short it means nothing.

It’s silly to say it means nothing, when we can see the same dysfunctions within the human. It’s more like a proof of concept and not some exact chemistry experiment where one comes up with a repeatable recipes.

What is repeatable (and readable in global news) is that over-crowding drives dysfunction.

And as any observer will have noticed we humans are well on the way to becoming supremely dysfunction yet again. And yes that goes back to over-crowding diminished available resources and stressing people. With some nations getting so barren citizens are forced to flee and find new homes, in nations that already feel over-crowded and stressed thus,
they aren’t wanted
and are reduced to acting like scared rats escaping a sinking ship.

@inthedarkness

@citizenschallengev4

Does the notion that you are an evolved biological creature, the product of Earth’s processes make any sense to you?

IF you can’t figure it out there is nothing to really say on it.

That’s your patent answer “it says nothing, it means nothing.”
No self examination nor explanations offered.

@inthedarkness

The reality unfolding beyond our bodies is based on the thoughts we play for ourselves in our heads.

NOPE - It is how we perceive the reality beyond our bodies that is based on the thoughts we play for ourselves, in our heads.

@inthedarkness

The reality unfolding beyond our bodies is based on the thoughts we play for ourselves in our heads. Our brains create a model of reality, not the actual thing and that model is influence by what we know and think.

NOPE - The reality around us is based on what Earth’s Evolution created. Matter and the law it operated under has been doing its thing for billions of years, yet you presume you’ve created all that in your head?

It’s like believing you can talk with some almighty cosmic god.

@inthedarkness

Even what we believe reality to be or work like is a story we tell ourselves.

Exactly, notice that change? “We believe”
Yes our perception of reality is the story we tell ourselves. And I’m saying it’s critically profoundly important for human mental health to recognize there is something solid beyond our conceptions. Because that’s the key than can unlock all that human angst we create for ourselves.

It’s also key to appreciating why Almighty Gods and such only reside within our minds.

It’s also key to a sober appreciation of this Earthly biosphere we depend on for everything and the key to learn caring and nurturing what we still can.

@inthedarkness

Even the thoughts you produce is just chemicals and brain chemistry, same with the “mind”. What we call “mind” is really just the brain.

Well there’s more going on than just chemical, why dismiss it with a shrug.

Why not try to think this through,
the brain is nothing without a body,
all your knowledge and experiences travel through your body to reach your brain,
without interacting with stuff and others, you body has no experience and nothing to send to the brain to work with.

Since the beginning of evolution creatures needed a degree of awareness simply to survive, meaning methods of internal communication and processing had to be established for life to do any evolving.

Of course, we with the most complex body, brain, experience package, it stands to reason our internal awareness would reach new levels of capabilities. Coming to terms with that might be the beginning of wisdom.

@inthedarkness

So really there is no difference between the two.

Following your train of thought leaves one to the conclusion that you have created the whole universe and history out of your own mind.

Are you really that imaginative?

[inthedarkness]

@lausten

Whenever someone uses the words “it’s just”, it’s almost always a compositional fallacy.
Fallacy of composition - Wikipedia

That’s not this case. It really is just that. Any addition meaning is what we assign to it.

@citizenschallengev4

So can you condense “what life is like” into an explanatory sentence or two?

And would you be referring to all life, or just the human sphere?

In general life just is, well that’s assuming there is such a thing as life and you don’t recognize it as just matter shuffling around.

@citizenschallengev4

It’s silly to say it means nothing, when we can see the same dysfunctions within the human. It’s more like a proof of concept and not some exact chemistry experiment where one comes up with a repeatable recipes.

What is repeatable (and readable in global news) is that over-crowding drives dysfunction.

It’s not silly when you have people saying so and proving so. It’s not proof of concept when your evidence evaporated.

Saying “just look around” at the news
isn’t evidence either. Hardly scientific.

@citizenschallengev4

That’s your patent answer “it says nothing, it means nothing.”
No self examination nor explanations offered.

I’m assuming you’re referring to yourself because that’s what your posts are, just gesturing and the evidence given is usually easy to take apart.

@citizenschallengev4

NOPE - It is how we perceive the reality beyond our bodies that is based on the thoughts we play for ourselves, in our heads.

Also incorrect.

@citizenschallengev4

NOPE - The reality around us is based on what Earth’s Evolution created. Matter and the law it operated under has been doing its thing for billions of years, yet you presume you’ve created all that in your head?

That’s an assumption, not proof or truth.

@citizenschallengev4

Exactly, notice that change? “We believe”
Yes our perception of reality is the story we tell ourselves. And I’m saying it’s critically profoundly important for human mental health to recognize there is something solid beyond our conceptions. Because that’s the key than can unlock all that human angst we create for ourselves.

Incorrect again, there is nothing beyond our conceptions. Everything we understand about reality is a concept.

@citizenschallengev4

Well there’s more going on than just chemical, why dismiss it with a shrug.

Why not try to think this through,
the brain is nothing without a body,
all your knowledge and experiences travel through your body to reach your brain,
without interacting with stuff and others, you body has no experience and nothing to send to the brain to work with.

Wrong again, they’re now able to keep brains alive outside the body so the brain in a vat is getting closer.

Also it’s not more than just a chemical reaction, we just want it to be more than that because we are humans and want to be more than just piles of matter.

@citizenschallengev4

Following your train of thought leaves one to the conclusion that you have created the whole universe and history out of your own mind.

Wrong conclusion. Though that is a philosophical problem about not being able to get outside your senses.

So, as usual, I’ve shown your points to be rooted in ignorance about how things are and we function. Again…

[lausten]

@inthedarkness

Also it’s not more than just a chemical reaction, we just want it to be more than that because we are humans and want to be more than just piles of matter.

There’s a bit of logic here that you seem to think applies differently to you. You are correct, in a manner of speaking, that it’s all chemical reactions. My happiness is a response to things that are made of chemicals and are moving around in my environment and coming into contact with the chemicals in my body which is connected to my brain. I’m happy that I just ate some chocolate and that’s all based on chemical reactions.

If that’s true, then your lack of happiness is a result of the same types of chemicals. The way you have been presenting this story is that you learned about how minds work, what chemicals are, and how the universe came to be, and you discovered that those things are the causes of our emotions. You then made some decisions based on what you learned. You say it’s not real, that it means nothing, that there is no point, that any struggle in life isn’t worth it.

I discovered all of those same things, and I made the decision that if I can do certain things that result in a feeling of amazement, then I’ll do them. It doesn’t change the feeling just because I know that the feeling is a sort of illusion, that it’s “just chemicals”.

There’s a much longer game to play here also. I tried the path of ingesting certain chemicals and having short term effects on my emotions and bodily sensations. If done properly, in a controlled way, and rarely, those are fine. But the longer game, of caring for others, constant learning, passing on the joy I’ve found, and building my environment so more people have those feelings, that results in more chemical reactions that are more pleasant. In the end, I cash in all my chips and the game is over, but what a ride.

[inthedarkness]

@lausten

I discovered all of those same things, and I made the decision that if I can do certain things that result in a feeling of amazement, then I’ll do them. It doesn’t change the feeling just because I know that the feeling is a sort of illusion, that it’s “just chemicals”.

Well no, it’s not the thing itself. There is nothing about what you do or the things you like that “make” you feel anything, it’s just you. So it’s not really that you discovered anything only that you were misinformed.

@lausten

But the longer game, of caring for others, constant learning, passing on the joy I’ve found, and building my environment so more people have those feelings, that results in more chemical reactions that are more pleasant. In the end, I cash in all my chips and the game is over, but what a ride.

The ride is based on us deluding ourselves.

[lausten]

@inthedarkness

There is nothing about what you do or the things you like that “make” you feel anything, it’s just you

So what are the chemicals doing? If “it’s just chemicals”, what “just” is doing what? If the chemicals are bouncing around, interacting, what are they doing? I agree, there is no me, I don’t really decide, I’m just the chemicals, creating the illusion of free will. Somehow, I’m happy, I have no idea how it works really. But you seem to believe you do understand it, even though, “it’s just chemicals”. How are you doing that? How are you both “just chemicals” and you are reacting to your knowledge of being “just chemicals”?

[inthedarkness]

@lausten

I agree, there is no me, I don’t really decide, I’m just the chemicals, creating the illusion of free will.

Well no, there is a you, it just has no agency.

And according to you if there is no me then no one is reacting to anything and this conversation is moot.

[lausten]

@inthedarkness

Well no, there is a you, it just has no agency.

Not sure how that’s different.

It’s not according to me, it’s what I thought you were saying. You’re the one who said it’s just chemicals. What do you mean by that?

[inthedarkness]

@lausten

It’s not according to me, it’s what I thought you were saying. You’re the one who said it’s just chemicals. What do you mean by that?

That the emotions and thoughts and mind are just chemical reactions.

It doesn’t mean there isn’t a you, but that you isn’t a free agent like folks think it is.

[lausten]

@inthedarkness

you isn’t a free agent

Are you a free agent?

[citizenschallengev4]

@inthedarkness

It’s not silly when you have people saying so and proving so. It’s not proof of concept when your evidence evaporated.

Guess you aren’t noticing what is happening to this country,
or what is happening all over the world with rise of armed over-lords and self-serving being the call of the hour.

You will have much to learn grasshopper in the coming years.

@inthedarkness

Saying “just look around” at the news
isn’t evidence either. Hardly scientific.

Yeah, I’m expecting you to have a rational brain and be capable of becoming informed of societal trends and such.
If you want to play stupid, with gotcha and chase-your-tail-games, fine,
Incidentally, this is a discussion and not a scientific symposium.

@inthedarkness

@citizenschallengev4

NOPE - It is how we perceive the reality beyond our bodies that is based on the thoughts we play for ourselves, in our heads.

Also incorrect.

How’s that?
Please explain

@inthedarkness

@citizenschallengev4

NOPE - The reality around us is based on what Earth’s Evolution created. Matter and the law it operated under has been doing its thing for billions of years, yet you presume you’ve created all that in your head?

That’s an assumption, not proof or truth.

So, you are saying evolution is an assumption?
Atoms, molecules, chemistry and biology are assumptions?
And that physical evidence is nothing?

And Lausten wonders why I’m disgusted by modern popular philosophical nonsense than has as enable people to become so grindingly rudderless.

@inthedarkness

Incorrect again, there is nothing beyond our conceptions. Everything we understand about reality is a concept.

So physical matter is nothing, but only a conception we’ve created in our heads.

Do you ever trying to follow the logic of that?

Oh yeah, God created us, and everything else is vapors - is that how it is?

@inthedarkness

Wrong again, they’re now able to keep brains alive outside the body so the brain in a vat is getting closer.

Now that’s wrong - That is keeping a lump of flesh alive by pumping it full of chemicals - remove the brain from the body and it’s useless.

Just because today’s human-God’s can manipulate that flesh is meaningless when it comes to understanding oneself or the mind in action.
(sure it’ll teach some about the brain’s neurological plumbing, nothing more, we are an organism, requiring all it’s various parts to play their role.)

This discussion would be helped with a bit of good faith curiosity - but your simplistic pat responses sound more like the certainty of Faith, rather than the actions of seeker.
To each their own, . . . I guess.

[inthedarkness]

@lausten

Are you a free agent?

No one is.

@citizenschallengev4

You will have much to learn grasshopper in the coming years.

I think you haven’t learned that much in all your years on the planet if that’s your takeaway. Age and length of life doesn’t by default confer perspective or wisdom.

I’m aware of what is happening in this country and around the world, it’s not relevant to this though.

@citizenschallengev4

Yeah, I’m expecting you to have a rational brain and be capable of becoming informed of societal trends and such.

“rational brain” in that you want your conclusion to be true right? I’m aware of trends and what’s going on, but again it’s not relevant.

@citizenschallengev4

How’s that?
Please explain

For one what we know and think does affect how we process incoming sensory stimuli, hence that whole thing with the dress being two colors. Our brains predict reality because otherwise we couldn’t react to it in time, so it’s always guessing what’s gonna happen based on info it’s learned before.

@citizenschallengev4

And Lausten wonders why I’m disgusted by modern popular philosophical nonsense than has as enable people to become so grindingly rudderless.

Maybe because you don’t have an answer for it besides indignation?

@citizenschallengev4

And that physical evidence is nothing?

What we call physical evidence is still just sense perception and sense perception can lie. Though QM might have something to say about what we call physical. I’m not really saying this isn’t all real, but I can acknowledge that is a leap one has to make since you can’t just outside your head.

@citizenschallengev4

So physical matter is nothing, but only a conception we’ve created in our heads.

Do you ever trying to follow the logic of that?

Oh yeah, God created us, and everything else is vapors - is that how it is?

You can’t be that ignorant about the problems philosophy brings up about knowing whether this is reality or not. It’s been debated for years, almost everyone has heard of it in some form or another.

@citizenschallengev4

Now that’s wrong - That is keeping a lump of flesh alive by pumping it full of chemicals - remove the brain from the body and it’s useless.

Nope, especially since the brain does regulate much of what the body does and a lot of the body is to feed our brains.

@citizenschallengev4

Just because today’s human-God’s can manipulate that flesh is meaningless when it comes to understanding oneself or the mind in action.
(sure it’ll teach some about the brain’s neurological plumbing, nothing more, we are an organism, requiring all it’s various parts to play their role.)

Nope. There isn’t really much to understand behind one’s “Self” or “mind” because that’s all brain structure and chemistry. Heck just by slicing an area of the prefrontal cortex we can stop self awareness and analysis. Everything is really just that lump of meat in our heads.

@citizenschallengev4

This discussion would be helped with a bit of good faith curiosity - but your simplistic pat responses sound more like the certainty of Faith, rather than the actions of seeker.
To each their own, . . . I guess.

This isn’t curiosity, this is more like you wanting something to be true and the evidence not supporting that conclusion.

For it to be curiosity it would have to involve something we DON’T know. This ain’t it.

[lausten]

@inthedarkness

No one is. [a free agent]

Wow. A three word answer. I love that. I’m going to take this as an anchor, a bedrock, a corner stone to build upon.

@inthedarkness

For one what we know and think does affect how we process incoming sensory stimuli

Okay, excellent. Another building block. We are not free agents, we are made of chemicals that are bouncing around and reacting to each other, and those processes have created thinking and knowing in our body/brains/minds.

@inthedarkness

Our brains predict reality because otherwise we couldn’t react to it in time, so it’s always guessing what’s gonna happen based on info it’s learned before.

OMG, you so got this. I would use the terms “intuition”, “learned behavior”, “inherited traits”, “instinct”, as well as higher orders of thinking and reflecting on past experience to predict the future reality. Brain processes, chemicals, are always behind the present, so the reality that is now is happening while our brains are processing the reality that was a millisecond ago. Someone who is good at that could be good at sports or at reading people’s faces and negotiating a difficult deal.

@inthedarkness

I’m not really saying this isn’t all real

Sometimes it seems like you are saying that. You take these ideas about what we perceive and what’s real and stretch them to their limits.

@inthedarkness

For one what we know and think does affect how we process incoming sensory stimuli

He’s not ignorant of that, he just doesn’t accept them. You should read beyond this thread to get to know who you are talking with. As you like to say, it’s not that hard to poke holes in the logic of those ideas like “philosophical zombies” or “brain in a vat”. Both of you are guilty of broad brush dismissals of ideas that are on the edge of science.

@inthedarkness

Everything is really just that lump of meat in our heads.

And there you go again with your blanket statements that claim “it’s just” this or that.

[write4u]

@inthedarkness

IF you can’t figure it out there is nothing to really say on it.

You have figured it all out? WOW!!!

Can you enlighten us with your deep insight which explains the mysteries that have plagued the greatest thinkers of mankind for thousands of years?

[citizenschallengev4]

@inthedarkness

I think you haven’t learned that much in all your years on the planet if that’s your takeaway. Age and length of life doesn’t by default confer perspective or wisdom.

True dat, experiences and learning go a long way?

Where have you been?

How many lives have you touched?

You tell me you know yourself,
but then say it’s all nothing.
and that makes sense to you?

Is it you that’s nothing?
Or is it everything that’s nothing?

Can you help me out, what am I missing about your philosophy?

[inthedarkness]

@lausten

Brain processes, chemicals, are always behind the present, so the reality that is now is happening while our brains are processing the reality that was a millisecond ago. Someone who is good at that could be good at sports or at reading people’s faces and negotiating a difficult deal.

No, you missed the mark. In fact our vision is an average of the last 15 seconds of input data.

@lausten

OMG, you so got this. I would use the terms “intuition”, “learned behavior”, “inherited traits”, “instinct”, as well as higher orders of thinking and reflecting on past experience to predict the future reality

That’s not what it is. It’s not reflecting on past experience.

@lausten

You take these ideas about what we perceive and what’s real and stretch them to their limits.

It’s not their limits, this is pretty much common place in neuroscience. If often comes up when new findings call into question the accuracy of our perception.

@lausten

And there you go again with your blanket statements that claim “it’s just” this or that.

Because that’s all it is, you’re making it more than what it really is.

@lausten

As you like to say, it’s not that hard to poke holes in the logic of those ideas like “philosophical zombies” or “brain in a vat”.

It actually is, that’s why those issues have no solutions.

@citizenschallengev4

True dat, experiences and learning go a long way?

Where have you been?

How many lives have you touched?

You tell me you know yourself,
but then say it’s all nothing.
and that makes sense to you?

Is it you that’s nothing?
Or is it everything that’s nothing?

Can you help me out, what am I missing about your philosophy?

Don’t you ever have anything relevant to say?

[lausten]

@inthedarkness

No, you missed the mark

Well. This is pointless.

We are evidenced based but we aren't scientists

I’m going to quote a few things from the FAQ rules, starting with this Their (moderators) decisions regarding Forum policy are not open for a vote among Forum members, nor open to protracted debate. And, the all important Generally speaking, inflammatory, hyperbolic or overly emotive rhetoric is the sign of a troll and should be avoided on the CFI Forum. This community exists, first and foremost, to foster inquiry. Inquiry does not flourish in an atmosphere of heated rhetoric, mutual vili…

[write4u]

@inthedarkness

That’s not what it is. It’s not reflecting on past experience.

Philosophy?..

[inthedarkness]

@lausten

Well. This is pointless.

You didn’t even read the rest of it. You missed the mark in that you thought it’s a skill when it’s not. IT’s just how brains do reality.

It has no affect on reading faces, sports, or deals. That’s why you missed the mark. Heck I posted the links to it in a different thread.