Not sure I’d call that “emerge”. In the same way when we mix cold water with hot water I’m not sure we’d say warm water “emerged” from the combination. Maybe a different way to look at it is that the possibility of the green wavelength always existed, and just becomes noticeable when blue and yellow are combined. Similarly with water. Green and warm aren’t “brand new things” that magically emerge from nothing. They’re just arrangements of existing things that become noticeable/detectable. A little like Plato’s forms.
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Now you got me curious.
It can be explained as a property that a collection or a complex system may possess, but the individual members making the collection or the complex system do not have.
https://sciencetrends.com/what-are-emergent-properties-definition-and-examples/
The Brain/Human Consciousness
There are many proposed explanations for the origin of consciousness in the philosophy of mind/consciousness. If one were to examine any part of the human brain, they would not find a consciousness center, the chemical interactions of which “cause” consciousness. One of the dominant theories of consciousness is “emergentism,” which postulates that consciousness arises out of the complex interaction of various component parts working together. No individual neuron is responsible for the processing of information or the experiencing of emotions, this is only possible through the linking of millions of neurons together.
While there is much that is still unknown about the human brain, most biologists and neuroscientists agree that consciousness is an emergent property and that the many complex interactions that take place between neurons and brain regions give rise to a phenomenon that no individual part possesses.
Chemistry
In chemistry, there are many instances where actions or forces have an effect greater than the sum of their parts when combined together. The complex nature of the interactions between chemical compounds and elements can frequently cause chemical reactions that have greater effects than the effects of their constituent parts.
As an example, neutralization reactions often seem to lead to unexpected outcomes. The combination of sodium hydroxide and HCl combined to create water and salt, two fairly safe and non-harmful compounds. This seems like an emergent property when one considers that HCl and sodium hydroxide are strongly acidic and strongly basic compounds, each rather dangerous on their own.
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How does this fit in your views?
Isn’t that the definition of “emergence”?
e·mer·gence
noun
- the process of coming into view or becoming exposed after being concealed.
Similar: disclosure, becoming known, coming to light, exposure, unfolding, publication.
David Bohm had beautiful expressions for “emergence”, as “enfolded” (implicate) and “unfolded” (explicate ) orders", in his book “Wholeness and the Implicate order”
Free pdf.
http://gci.org.uk/Documents/DavidBohm-WholenessAndTheImplicateOrder.pdf
Sure, definitely!
So long as we keep in mind, what you shared there is about the last two minutes of Earth’s 24hrs, perhaps the most important, then again impossible without the previous 23 hours and 58 minutes.
And that’s why I still am convinced that the human brain is not due to a long and gradual evolution, but to a sudden mutation, which also made a definitive change in our chromosome count.
All great apes other than man have 24 pr chromosomes. Only humans have 23 pr chromosomes and the fossil record shows that this mutative change agrees with the emergenge of homo sapiens bearing a large brain. Perhaps this was only in the last 1/2 minute of earth’s 24hrs.
Chromosome fusion (evolutionpages.com)
??? Because, behaviorally, emotionally Humans are 95% similar to Apes?
For starters I see evolution as a continuum of mutations, fusing to 23pairs, may have triggered significant changes in the Ape brain, but seems another domino.
I’ve only had a little time to surf the net, but wasn’t able to find anything about the mechanism between 23pairs and the cause of our sophisticated human brain. (You know, correlation isn’t necessarily causation.)
What studies do you have to share, regarding cause and effect?
Plus, in any event, I’m sure other factors also played their vital roles in developing the hominid brain, and then on to the homo sapiens brain.
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For starters I see evolution as a continuum of mutations, fusing to 23pairs, may have triggered significant changes in the Ape brain, but seems another domino.
You have to understand that evolution is not always gradual, but can be due to a fortunate major genetic mutation.
I’ve only had a little time to surf the net, but wasn’t able to find anything about the mechanism between 23 pairs and the cause of our sophisticated human brain. (You know, correlation isn’t necessarily causation.)
In this case the researchers are pretty well convinced that Humans suddenly evolved from apes and that the event is marked by a rare but beneficial genetic mutation that allowed for a more complex brain growth instruction.
What studies do you have to share, regarding cause and effect?
Plus, in any event, I’m sure other factors also played their vital roles in developing the hominid brain, and then on to the homo sapiens brain.
I am not talking about a gradually evolving brain as is present in the other extant apes. I am talking about an evolutionary leap in brain growth, due to a genetic extended growth instruction from a mutated growth chromosome.
Keeping in mind that we share the same ancestor with all other great apes which did not enjoy the benefit of this genetic mutation and followed the more leisurely evolutionary path as you properly identified.
The Chimps, Gorillas, Orangutans, all having more or less 98% identical DNA and 24 pr chromosomes, are the results of normal evolution.
Only humans have 23 pr chromosomes but the much larger brain, that apparently developed after the genetic mutation of 2 separate ancestral chromosomes into a single twice as large chromosome. Is it so far-fetched to recognize hat a chromosome that is twice as large has some additional emergent growth potentials?
We have 3 examples of normal evolution from a common ancestor to compare to the extraordinarily larger brain in humans and the only obvious change is clearly present in the mutated genome. I call that proof.
God I hate it when you do stuff like that. This isn’t about gradualism or catastrophism, for me it’s about appreciating the sweep of Evolution and how that evolution flows through the Being I am, and how my peculiar awareness has impacted my outlook on the world, and all the challenges & questions I asked myself as a young man.
Your tendency to fixate on specifics as though they hold the answer to everything is the “thing” I totally reject. It’s the Whole of Earth and past billions of years and yes, of course, especially the past 600 million, but not limited to the past 6 million years that needs to be taken in.
I’d love to learn about this connection between our 23rd chromosome, which I’ve read about plenty (casual like), without the claim you attach to it. I’d truly love to hear more since I’m fascinated by all the nuances that helped create us, but so far it’s only been you making that connection of that fusion being the driving factor in making the special human mind. Yesterday I was searching for more, and came up snake eyes.
I may find that the fused chromosome is a driving factor in the development of our neocortex - but you can’t understand our brain, tunnel visioned on the biological architectural development. Until you can include those interactions that these creatures were living out and their environments within your search for the answer to everything, you’ll never find your answers.
Interactions, feedback, intercourse, how ever you want to word it. Understanding this creature that resides within my body, requires more than exquisite biological knowledge, it require understanding the complete spectrum of this Earth and the condition it created for us, and we for it, this awareness becomes a foundation for making much better sense of myself and the day to days that come my way with all there adventures and interactions with others. Even in these utterly terrifying days, that most everyone else seems so absolutely totally oblivious too. At least coming from somewhere in the middle of the East Coast.
You’ve brought no studies or papers or articles regarding how this unfolded. Like Wegener pointing at a lot of correlations and insufficient geophysical evidence about plate tectonics. I’ll wait to read the opinions of those who are doing the actual studying.
Yes, I am not disputing any of this. In nature almost all major mutations are detrimental and never get the chance to enter the gene pool. They just fade into the mist of their evolutionary past.
But occasionally (say, 1 in a quadrillion ) may result in a genetic mutation that makes a distinct beneficial difference and spawns a new species. This is not a fanciful concept. It is absolutely possible and I have provided proof.
I can also give you examples of rare mutations that are doomed for eventual extinction like the silvery salamander that genetically can only produce female clones of the mother and are reduced to a handful of individuals in a few (protected) ponds.
IMO, that is how some species diverge from their ancestral tree. And that may be compared to the self-organization of the Krebs polymer, a rare but positive self-duplicating biochemical string that may well have been a precursor to living organisms.
I don’t know why that should sound implausible to you. The evidence is irrefutable. Of all the apes only humans have the single larger chromosome and the much larger and complex brain.
This mutation resulted in the emergence of “homo sapiens” with increased intelligence and caused man to leave the forest and spread around the world, due to its increased resourcefulness in tool making , maintaining fire, ritualistic group behaviors, and the “discovery” of common unseen skygods to be worshipped.
All the other great apes that maintained the original ancestral chromosomes followed the more conventional evolutionary adaptations and did very well in their own environment at a slower pace but still learned to use simple tools and advanced group behaviors as has also been recorded.
This has nothing to do with religion but is just one more method evolution has in its bag of tricks to be tested by natural selection for beneficial survival abilities.
How do you arrive at that conclusion, there’s nothing implausible about it and I never said it was implausible.
What? That seemingly small changes can have profound a lasting impacts? And that some of those changes are much more significant that others?
What I’m complaining about is your claiming a singular connection between the fusion of two chromosomes into a single and our neocortex, without providing more than correlation, and “it’s just gotta be”.
I’m not even denying the possibility that Chromosome 23 might be a key component in evolving a neocortex! I would have hoped my reference to Wegener made that plain. But instead of simply digging up evidence regarding how that unfolded, you twist my sentences into straw men to burn down.
Then provide some serious evidence, rather than more personal assumptions.
That’s what I meant about you considering this mutation as insignificant.
If you consider that all we need is a single genetic growth instruction that yields a doubling in size and complexity of the brain, and there is your first human.
All other differences (loss of hair, skin color, size) are cosmetic and a result of normal and gradual evolutionary changes. It is our brain that sets us apart from all other apes. And the single other glaring difference is the fusion of a single double size chromosome 2 from 2 smaller chromosomes in our common ancestor. These 2 simultaneously emergent phenomena must be responsible for the human strain. If not, why not?
The fact that of all the apes only the human ape has that genetic mutation is a clear indication that this specific mutation was causal to the first homo sapiens strain from which all subsequent humans originated.
Don’t you see that we base the entire living world on a single ancestral cell, and possibly microtubules that are a common denominator in all Eukaryotic organisms, but you reject a clear marker where humans must have split from the rest of the ape family.
Read the link explaining the mutation and consider the evolutionary implication of that chromosomal fusion.
I did. why not look at it yourself:
Conclusion
The evidence that human chromosome 2 is a fusion of two of the common ancestor’s chromosomes is overwhelming.
Nothing about speculation regarding the development of our neocortex.
Still no reference to papers about this link to driving the development of the neocortex?
Stop reading your own thoughts into my mind!
How does
“seemingly small changes can have profound lasting impacts” = “insignificant”
Speaking of seemingly,
still no reference to papers about this link to driving the development of the neocortex. Eh?
[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:73, topic:9974”]
Nothing about speculation regarding the development of our neocortex.
This is just a coincidental event?
[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:73, topic:9974”]
Conclusion
The evidence that human chromosome 2 is a fusion of two of the common ancestor’s chromosomes is overwhelming.
There are no human fossils with 24 chromosomes!
[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:73, topic:9974”]
How does
“seemingly small changes can have profound lasting impacts” = “insignificant”
I didn’t say that.
I said why you insist that evolution can only be significant over long periods of small changes.
Who are we to say?
I never said that!
What I’ve said: Is that you haven’t brought anything to the table that delves into how this fusion of two chromosomes into one worked its magic on the brain. The one short time I went looking I came up snake eyes.
To me it looks like you are making an assumption.
Science is about observations and facts.
No, it’s a deduction. If there are no humans or human fossils with 24 pr chromosomes then it follows that there is an evolutionary connection between the two events and the chromosomal part is causal to cell growth and formation.
The only significant major difference between man and his cousins is in the size and complexity of the brain. Any other physical differences are cosmetic and due to long-term environmental pressures and were also effective on humans.
Humans did not suddenly change to hairless, strictly bipedal runners. Those environmental changes came over time.
> The remarkable thing about the human brain is that its extraordinary complexity was not “selected” from necessity, but was a true random beneficial mutation, which are extremely rare. Most large mutations are detrimental and go extinct.
Our cousins have done quite well in their original common chromosomal configuration, but they clearly have lagged behind human intellectual development. And what is the only way how that can possibly happen?
Observation shows that humans have a much larger brain than other apes, even as some are much bigger in size and mass than humans .
As I said before, all other great apes show the normal long-term evolutionary processes of gradual change. Something extraordinary (not supernatural) happened to brain growth genetics. And how does that happen? Mutation!
Let me know when you can share some studies explaining specifics about how the 23rd chromosome drove the development of our neocortex.
For starters,
How humans evolved bigger brains
Brain size increased rapidly during human evolution due to the expansion of many brain regions, resulting in human brains being exceptionally larger than those of our closest relatives.
Humans have much larger brains than other primates, but it is not clear exactly when and how this difference emerged during evolution. Some scientists believe that the expansion of a part of the brain called the neocortex – which handles sight, hearing, conscious decision-making and language – drove the increase in the size of the human brain. Newer studies have challenged that idea.
I propose that the fusion of human chromosome 2 is responsible for this unexplained evolutionary leap.
One way to learn more about how humans evolved bigger brains is to compare the size of the brain, and specific parts of the brain, between humans and our closest relatives: non-human primates.
And the sudden difference in brain size is observable and measurable.
To make accurate comparisons, scientists must account for many factors. Closely related primates may have more similar traits because they more recently shared a common ancestor. This means the evolutionary relationships between species need to be considered. Larger animals also tend to have larger brains so it is important to consider body size, too
Now, Miller at al. show that the human brain is much larger than expected even after accounting for these factors, and that increases in brain size accelerated over the course of early human evolution. In the analyses, the brain and skull sizes of different living primate species, like chimpanzees and gorillas, and fossils of extinct primates, including Neanderthals, were compared using mathematical models.
These findings suggest that larger brains provided fitness advantages that led to large brain sizes in modern humans and Neanderthals. These increases in brain size were not driven by disproportionate growth in the neocortex alone, but rather by increases in the size of many parts of the brain. Increases in the relative size of the cerebellum, which is essential for balance and movement, were also important.
How humans evolved bigger brains | eLife Science Digests | eLife (elifesciences.org)
So, it is established that the human brain is larger and more complex than necessary for survival and is due to a rare chance large AND beneficial mutation.
That means a major chromosomal mutation occurred in an ancestral female, such as the submitted mutation resulting in the fusion of two ordinary size chromosomes into a single extraordinary double-size chromosome, with apparent beneficial properties (else humans would have gone extinct, as with many other species experiencing a large genetic mutation) and arguably with potential for extraordinary growth and complex pattern conformation.
But you still haven’t brought any specific evidence regarding the connect to chromosome 23!
What expertise do you have to “Propose” anything, beyond your gut feeling based on your own casual reading?
I’m not trying to be dick, but I do believe you go beyond what serious science allows you to say about serious scientific matters. i.e. drivers of brain development.
I’d love to hear more about the mechanism, but you still aren’t offer that.
First, all evolutionary changes are always caused by a (small) genetic mutations.
Most have little effect on the species other than some small cosmetic change, some are detrimental and that individual dies before procreating, very rarely the change offers a survival advantage that allows the individuals to procreate and feed the gene pool with that beneficial genetic variation.
Usually any major mutation caused by injury or mitotic accident result in a detrimental change from the current successful extant strain, and disappear in the mist of time. Because there are usually no more than a single individual or a a few siblings with that mutation, there never remain any fossils.
OTOH, very rarely a major mutation may lead to a drastic improvement of an existing survival mechanism, leading to the appearance of a new species without any intermediate stages.
Do you think that when two extremely rare but related events occur at the same time, that this is coincidence?
Simple logic will tell you that a sudden increase in brain complexity MUST be caused by one of those rare genetic mutation.
Here we experience a genetic mutation that creates a NEW chromosome occurring at the same time as a sudden increase in brain growth in the offspring of a common ancestor.
I call that evidence. Other than a genetic mutation, is there an alternative evolutionary “leap” in brain growth possible?