I will be the first to admit that I know very little about the Gospel of Barnabas. I would like to know more, but there seems to be a political game being played between the Vatican and the Islamic religions.
There were two copies of the gospel of Barnabas found dated in the 18th century. But as expected the Christians said they were fake and could not have been written that far back in time for varies reasons. They didn’t say the original gospel of Barnabas was fake, just the copies could not have been from the original, and no original has ever been found.
Then a couple years back another copy was found in Ankara Turkey. Turkey claims that copy to be 1,500 years old. And of course the Vatican wants to get its hands on the copy.
Now this is important because disciple Barnabas was one of Jesus’ twelve apostles.
And Barnabas claims Jesus never died on the cross.
Second Barnabas talks about the coming of Muhammad. And I would guess, this would make Jesus sort of like the founding father of Islam as well as Christianity.
We already know that Jesus is Islam’s second most popular prophet already. Now it seems that the Islam religion rejects the Vatican requests to take possession of the bible. They want to use the bible to show that Islam is as old as Christianity.
As far as the Christians are concerned, anything that’s not in the NT is fake.
As far as the Jews, Barnabas claims Jesus’s mission was restricted to the “House of Israel" (Samaritan). We know the Jews “House of Judah" (Jewish) and Israel used almost the same Abrahamic text. So what does that mean? Maybe Jesus was a Samaritan or just preaching to the Samaritans. Or did the Israelis take over the temple mount in Judah at the time of Jesus? Very possible.
The Vatican takes the stance that they speak directory with god and when they speak it is sort of like god speaking. This will interesting to watch to see how the power (money) works on this problem. Maybe the Vatican has some dirt on Muhammad they will trade.
My view is that we have laws from the 1980’s governing anything found that is ancient must be turned over to the government. The United Nations and World Courts needs to also pass the same type of laws.
I will be the first to admit that I know very little about the Gospel of Barnabas. I would like to know more, but there seems to be a political game being played between the Vatican and the Islamic religions. There were two copies of the gospel of Barnabas found dated in the 18th century. But as expected the Christians said they were fake and could not have been written that far back in time for varies reasons. They didn't say the original gospel of Barnabas was fake, just the copies could not have been from the original, and no original has ever been found. Then a couple years back another copy was found in Ankara Turkey. Turkey claims that copy to be 1,500 years old. And of course the Vatican wants to get its hands on the copy. Now this is important because disciple Barnabas was one of Jesus’ twelve apostles. And Barnabas claims Jesus never died on the cross. Second Barnabas talks about the coming of Muhammad. And I would guess, this would make Jesus sort of like the founding father of Islam as well as Christianity. We already know that Jesus is Islam’s second most popular prophet already. Now it seems that the Islam religion rejects the Vatican requests to take possession of the bible. They want to use the bible to show that Islam is as old as Christianity. As far as the Christians are concerned, anything that’s not in the NT is fake. As far as the Jews, Barnabas claims Jesus’s mission was restricted to the “House of Israel" (Samaritan). We know the Jews “House of Judah" (Jewish) and Israel used almost the same Abrahamic text. So what does that mean? Maybe Jesus was a Samaritan or just preaching to the Samaritans. Or did the Israelis take over the temple mount in Judah at the time of Jesus? Very possible. The Vatican takes the stance that they speak directory with god and when they speak it is sort of like god speaking. This will interesting to watch to see how the power (money) works on this problem. Maybe the Vatican has some dirt on Muhammad they will trade. My view is that we have laws from the 1980’s governing anything found that is ancient must be turned over to the government. The United Nations and World Courts needs to also pass the same type of laws.Who is "we" who have such laws? The US? Those laws would not affect any other country. In many Islamic countries Islam IS the government and in the Vatican--a sovereign state--the Catholic Church IS the government. Although Turkey considers itself a secular state, I doubt the government of Turkey would ever demand that the Islamic authorities turn over a religious document to the Turkish government. I would not be surprised that if the World Court or the United Nations passed such a law that individual governments would be able to exempt religious documents. According to the a Wikipedia article the manuscript you refer to is held at the Ankara Museum in Ankara, Turkey, under Turkish authority. It is an interesting article on the history of Barnabas and the various manuscripts that have been found and the contrversies surrounding them, including the one you refer to here. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Barnabas Lois
Lois
My understanding is that the bible is now in the hands of the Turkey government. I have read in the news where people visiting Turkey have been arrested for picking up a rock from the beach to take home. Turkey seems to have tough antique laws.
Lois My understanding is that the bible is now in the hands of the Turkey government. I have read in the news where people visiting Turkey have been arrested for picking up a rock from the beach to take home. Turkey seems to have tough antique laws.That is apparently true, though I am not sure about picking up rocks on beaches. After reading a Wikipedia article on the Ankara manuscript, I added a paragraph to my original response to you on this subject. Lois
I really think it would help if the history of religion was taught in schools.
I think the churches would fight to stop the facts and details of religious history being taught to their kids.
I really think it would help if the history of religion was taught in schools. I think the churches would fight to stop the facts and details of religious history being taught to their kids.Yes, it would be a free-for-all and people might begin to see how they were manipulated and hurt by religions. I can't see the history of religion being taught in schools anytime soon, though. You're right that the various religions would storm the courts to have their own version taught and I can see it being tied up for decades. Lois
Yes, it would be a free-for-all and people might begin to see how they were manipulated and hurt by religions. I can’t see the history of religion being taught in schools anytime soon, though. You’re right that the various religions would storm the courts to have their own version taught and I can see it being tied up for decades.Religion is being taught in schools, as history and literature. History in the way it impacts societies and as literature from the time periods in which it was written. Colleges and universities have religious studies included in the curriculum and high schools include an intro to religion in the World History courses, introducing a discussion of the religion of a particular culture. I always included a discussion of the World's religions in my classes in the high school and college classes. Being taught from that perspective I've had no push back from my students who are committed fundamentalists. They may make their own conclusions regarding their particular belief and when asked what I believe I have answered them honestly and the conversation goes no further; it usually ends with my citation of the first Amendment. Cap't Jack
Religion is being taught in schools ............... Cap't JackMankind has in general certain questions. Like, is the moon made of cheese? Can man ever fly to the moon? Can we change the makeup of elements to make gold from dirt? What created life? Is there other life forms? Is there afterlife? Do we have a spirit? Can we overcome and control gravity? We know today that most history books are out of date in the area of timelines and findings. Just in my lifetime the cradle of mankind has been moved from Egypt to Israel, to Jericho, to the Fertile Crescent. And DNA is now telling us that is not yet the cradle of mankind. This year alone, the age of pottery has went from 10K years to 20K years. People don’t understand what the systems used for money and trading in the past was. Or that religion was not the main part of people’s lives. They are not taught about the population cycles. They think that the ancients lived in a time of consent wars. They don’t realize that in the time of Vega and Egypt that those were the most peaceful times in mankind’s history on earth. What I am trying to say Cap’t Jack is from what I have read and seen is that most of the people are not understanding religion and what it is about. And that is about questions and answers and the way society deals with mankind’s questions in the different periods of time. How the questions have not changed even going back into pre-history, but mankind’s thinking of what the answers are keeps changing or evolving over time. By the way I think it’s great that you teach the kids about religion.
What I am trying to say Cap’t Jack is from what I have read and seen is that most of the people are not understanding religion and what it is about. And that is about questions and answers and the way society deals with mankind’s questions in the different periods of time. How the questions have not changed even going back into pre-history, but mankind’s thinking of what the answers are keeps changing or evolving over time.Most people don't Mike, as the majority of believers relegate this knowledge to their religious teachers and pay no mind to what they consider the minutiae of religious history and philosophy. Their only interest is how it directly affects their lives and futures (if any) and they are taught to trust and obey their pastors, imams, etc. BTW the history books DO keep up with the latest archeological finds as these come to be accepted by leading archeologists, but that takes time. Publishers don't want to be responsible for recalling millions of textbooks, either college or high school, with the the loss of even more revenue and these are texts for secular, not parochial schools. They may put a particular spin on religious instruction and they constantly chide the secular schools for "watering down" religious instruction. And yes, I'm continuing to teach courses that include in-depth discussions on religious topics, e.g. I do a whole unit on the Epic of Gilgamesh and it's relation to early Semitic writing, particularly to the Creation stories in the Torah. I have a copy of an Enuma Elish tablet in cuneiform that I use for show and tell so to speak. I also do a quick overview of the formation of cuneiform using a PowerPoint program I created. I'm doing a face to face class this Fall covering European History from Homo Erectus to the renaissance. Cap't Jack
Do you see the schools doing away with paper book for eBooks in subjects like history anytime soon?
The Epic of Gilgamesh was a game changer for me in the ways I viewed history.
In one of my favorite of the oldest cuneiform stories is the letter the school kid sent home to his mother, claiming all his classmates had the new style of clothes for school and he was still wearing last year’s styles. And even John (not sure of the kids name) had new clothes. And John was adopted. And does she not love him as much as John’s mother loves her adopted son? So could she please send him money for new clothes?
When you read the letters, stories, laws and many types of contracts written in cuneiform from the Ur area. Then fast forward 3K years and look at the writing in the bible. There is a huge red flag. What happened? It is like parts of the bible was intentionally written for an audience that already had beliefs and the bible was just a backup for those beliefs. Unless the reader is in full understanding of those same beliefs then the true message is not transferred. Because the cuneiform writings prove the skills for written thought was established. This makes the greatest book ever written also one of the worst books of writing ever written. Point being, that people that read the bible and are unaware of the cuneiform writings cannot help but conclude that writing skills at the time of Jesus were not yet fully formed and mankind had not been out of the cave very long. I see this by viewing the problems the translators have in translating the old original text. I have never heard of these same problems in the cuneiform translations.
In your coverage of European History are you going to cover Turkey and the Hittite Empire? Where Ramses the Egyptian Pharaoh had to sue the Hittites for peace. The battle Ramses lost is still taught at West Point.
There are still a lot of missing parts of history. In the Plagues of Europe, the Leprosy plagues interest me the most. It shows me that at one time almost half of Europe had Asian genes.
And we are real close now to finding out more about the middle kingdom of Egypt and how it operated.
I’m really more of a New a Kingdom fan but I have my son to thank for that. He’s a real fanatic. I only wish that I had more time to cover those topics individually but with the scope of the course and time limitations I can only provide a few supplements to the text for the course as it’s mainly a survey of European History. I literally don’t have the time to explain any of the Egyptian kingdoms in detail, unfortunately. And this bleeds over into anthropology and archeology anyway. With limited funding, which has been cut by the State BTW, the college has only a limited amount of instructors to teach the core courses. I’d like nothing better than to teach a course on ancient Sumeria or Egypt but the powers that be won’t have it, believe me I’ve tried. We do cover a few of the cuneiform letters however and the students are amazed to hear similar complaints about food, parental control, love life etc. it fascinates them that after over 3,000 years the bitching hasn’t stopped.
Cap’t Jack
What you are doing is great. There is no doubt that you’re teaching is opening minds and changing lives.
Capt. Jack
I
do a whole unit on the Epic of Gilgamesh and it’s relation to early Semitic writing, particularly to the Creation stories in the Torah
I’d be interested in seeing the outline of that if possible. Also do you have anything on Zoroasterism? I have a couple of books on this but haven’t gotten to them as yet. From what I have read in studies of ancient religion Zoroaster is being treated as the beginning of the belief in the One God tradition.
I’d be interested in seeing the outline of that if possible. Also do you have anything on Zoroasterism? I have a couple of books on this but haven’t gotten to them as yet. From what I have read in studies of ancient religion Zoroaster is being treated as the beginning of the belief in the One God tradition.I'm resetting the class as we speak Gary. It starts on Mon. The 18th so I'll see if I can shoot you the outline for the Epic by PM if you like. On Zoroasterism I generally use the text which is now online and I can give you the site if you wish. It's pretty much up to date and includes a supplemental text. Those are the ones I use for the class. Cap't Jack
The Harappans of the Indus Valley civilization had massive brick building projects.
And all the bricks were the same size.
A question I have never found the answer to is in Sumeria or in the Zorasterian brick projects.
Were the bricks the same sizes and did they match the size of the Indus bricks?
Is there a connection in the weights and measurements?
You've had a good experience, then, but possibly an unusual one. I've heard that parents get very upset when the "wrong" version of religious history is taught to their little darlings. And when it focuses on something they are uncomfortable, such as anything sexual, with they will complain that it is "inappropriate" to teach that part of biblical history to "young" children. I don't kmow what exactly you were teaching but if it included a valid assessment of the creation story or of other incidents in the bible, such as those dealing with prostitution and other sexual things, I am surprised that you received no blowback, Did your course discuss the irrationality in the bible, or did it just teach what's in it with no assessment as to whether it was or could be true? Did it include comparative religions? Was it in a public school? College level courses are a different thing. The parents I know have been much more protective of their public grade school and even high school age children, not wanting them to be exposed to other religious ideas or to rational assessments of their religion. LoisYes, it would be a free-for-all and people might begin to see how they were manipulated and hurt by religions. I can’t see the history of religion being taught in schools anytime soon, though. You’re right that the various religions would storm the courts to have their own version taught and I can see it being tied up for decades.Religion is being taught in schools, as history and literature. History in the way it impacts societies and as literature from the time periods in which it was written. Colleges and universities have religious studies included in the curriculum and high schools include an intro to religion in the World History courses, introducing a discussion of the religion of a particular culture. I always included a discussion of the World's religions in my classes in the high school and college classes. Being taught from that perspective I've had no push back from my students who are committed fundamentalists. They may make their own conclusions regarding their particular belief and when asked what I believe I have answered them honestly and the conversation goes no further; it usually ends with my citation of the first Amendment. Cap't Jack
Presumably not to grade school students, unless you are teaching "gifted" classes. This seems very advanced, even for gifted grade school age students. LoisWhat I am trying to say Cap’t Jack is from what I have read and seen is that most of the people are not understanding religion and what it is about. And that is about questions and answers and the way society deals with mankind’s questions in the different periods of time. How the questions have not changed even going back into pre-history, but mankind’s thinking of what the answers are keeps changing or evolving over time.Most people don't Mike, as the majority of believers relegate this knowledge to their religious teachers and pay no mind to what they consider the minutiae of religious history and philosophy. Their only interest is how it directly affects their lives and futures (if any) and they are taught to trust and obey their pastors, imams, etc. BTW the history books DO keep up with the latest archeological finds as these come to be accepted by leading archeologists, but that takes time. Publishers don't want to be responsible for recalling millions of textbooks, either college or high school, with the the loss of even more revenue and these are texts for secular, not parochial schools. They may put a particular spin on religious instruction and they constantly chide the secular schools for "watering down" religious instruction. And yes, I'm continuing to teach courses that include in-depth discussions on religious topics, e.g. I do a whole unit on the Epic of Gilgamesh and it's relation to early Semitic writing, particularly to the Creation stories in the Torah. I have a copy of an Enuma Elish tablet in cuneiform that I use for show and tell so to speak. I also do a quick overview of the formation of cuneiform using a PowerPoint program I created. I'm doing a face to face class this Fall covering European History from Homo Erectus to the renaissance. Cap't Jack
Another couple questions I have never got answered.
- In the Babylon area in the cruciform writings.
The house rental contracts, the renter had to supply his own doors and window shutters.
Was that due to the value of the doors?
Or was Babylon in an environmental disaster like what happened to Rome when they used up all the wood in the country. - We know they raised pigs in Babylon. But were the pigs used as the sewer system as in some parts of India?
Presumably not to grade school students, unless you are teaching “gifted" classes. This seems very advanced, even for gifted grade school age students.No, religious discussions in a grade school class aren't age appropriate as children lack the capacity for critical thinking at that level. It would be similar to telling a first grader that there is no Santa Claus. It also depends on the cultural environment that surrounds the child. What you can do is introduce the concept of the scientific method, usually by grade four (discuss the basics and projects for science fairs) and reinforce same throughout the the child's time in public ed. What we can do is create the concept of critical thinking. Then it's up to them to decide. I introduce the history of religious beliefs in high school classes, nine through twelve, and allow for free discussions of each but don't actually parse the "holy" books. What I want them to be able to discern for themselves is the evolution of each belief system and how it impacted society, also how society was impacted by the particular belief. What I don't do is subjectively comment on a religion. Remember that the key is "free thought" not "my thought". Letting them figure it out is far better and longer lasting than attempting to blast them out of their beliefs with inflammatory statements and denunciations. That's left for the haranguers behind the pulpit. Cap't Jack Can't Jack
Did your course discuss the irrationality in the bible, or did it just teach what’s in it with no assessment as to whether it was or could be true? Did it include comparative religions? Was it in a public school? College level courses are a different thing. The parents I know have been much more protective of their public grade school and even high school age children, not wanting them to be exposed to other religious ideas or to rational assessments of their religion.Oops, forgot about this post Lois. No, I don't discuss the irrationality of the Bible, once again I attempt to lead the students to a conclusion based solely on factual evidence which they are fee to accept or not. The problem to overcome is the disconnect they experience by separating "school learning" from "Sunday school learning". One example would be the Noah's Ark story. I discuss with them it's origins (Sumerian) and the plausibility of the incident, e.g. Where's the proof, and I don't mean a "flood" as those stories are international. We discuss the concept of myth, legend and eyewitness accounts and how these are easily misinterpreted. Using that mode of teaching I've had no complaints from parents. Alternatively, we have several "Christian" schools and many Catholic schools in our three state area where parents can take their child for a proper indoctrination if they wish. The major drawback though is the cost. It's higher than many folks in our area can afford. Cap't Jack