@write4u It is a function of the Mirror Neural System (MNS). It produces chemical experiential reactions upon viewing something. Look it up.The Mirror System is just Neurons firing. What Chemical Experiential Reactions are you referring to. Are you saying that a Neuron Firing is a Chemical Experiential Reaction? And how does a Chemical Experiential Reaction produce things like the Redness of Red, the Sound of the Standard A Tone, the Taste of Salt, the Smell of Bleach, and etc.
I am really not that well schooled. But I usually know where to look for information...I'm not hearing that it's not an internal database from the future, though...
steveklinko said; The Mirror System is just Neurons firing. What Chemical Experiential Reactions are you referring to. Are you saying that a Neuron Firing is a Chemical Experiential Reaction?Yes indeed. Basically they are very old survival mechanisms (pheromones, adrenalin, ), triggering fight or flight responsess, which later evolved in complexity and sensitivity to illicit actual emotional reactions to many chemical responses in the mirror neural system. That is the essence of "empathic" response.
Do you whince when you see someone hurt themselves badly? Do you salivate when you see someone else eat a tasty morsel? Do you yawn when you see other people yawn? Do you cry when you see a baby seal being clubbed to death? Do you feel a special connection to someone when you share a profound intimate moment. These empathic responses are due to the observation and association with prior stored (coded) emotional memory.
And how does a Chemical Experiential Reaction produce things like the Redness of Red, the Sound of the Standard A Tone, the Taste of Salt, the Smell of Bleach, and etc.But apart from the wave function these things are not physical objects, they are emotional abstract experiences generated by the neural network and interpreted by the autonomous mind.
IMO, this is a really important posit by Anil Seth;
"We generate our (experiential) reality as much from the inside out as from the outside in".this, of course, is due to the fact that the brain is basically an autonomous agent, which relies on sensory inputs for it to be able to function and process data about self and relation to the environment. Descartes' "brain in a vat" is a perfect example of the brain's dependence on "sensory stimulus".
Too long in a sensory deprivation chamber first makes you hallucinate and finally drives the mind into madness.
“Our brains can only make best guesses of what is out there.” Every thought we have is a product of abstract emotional experiences derived from electro-chemical neural stimulation and their meaning as compared to stored memory from prior experiences.
A perfect example can be found in the Circadian rhythm
Circadian rhythm
A circadian rhythm is a natural, internal process that regulates the sleep-wake cycle and repeats roughly every 24 hours.[1] It can refer to any biological process that displays an endogenous, entrainable oscillation of about 24 hours. These 24-hour rhythms are driven by a circadian clock, and they have been widely observed in plants, animals, fungi, and cyanobacteria.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm
Amazingly, this experience of “time” is already present in the lowly slime-mold, which can be trained to respond to specific “intervals” of time. But slime molds have no neurons or brains. It seems then that the organism as a whole has a form of physical memory, which responds to “repettitive intervals”. https://www.quantamagazine.org/slime-molds-remember-but-do-they-learn-20180709/
Similar to a Sunflower’s physical response (no eyes) to the sun’s position (heliotropism). Heliotropism - Wikipedia
All these behaviors are triggered by the processing of internal and external sensory stimuli.
IMO, this gradual sophistication in sensory awareness and “information” processing, from single celled organisms to complex celled organisms, is the history of the evolutionary hierarchy of “consciousness” in biological organisms.
And how does a Chemical Experiential Reaction produce things like the Redness of Red, the Sound of the Standard A Tone, the Taste of Salt, the Smell of Bleach, and etc.But apart from the wave function these things are not physical objects, they are emotional abstract experiences generated by the neural network and interpreted by the autonomous mind.
IMO, this is a really important posit by Anil Seth;
steveklinko said: Yes we know these things are not Physical objects. So what are they? They exist only in the Mind. They exist is some sort of Conscious Space. This needs to be Explained.Yes, that's the hard problem. This is what Tegmark identifies as the "emergent" property of conscious awareness and experience. Perhaps somewhat similar to a holographic illusion. Anil Seth calls it a "controlled hallucination" based on a prior expectation by the brain.
Yes, that’s the hard problem. This is what Tegmark identifies as the “emergent” property of conscious awareness and experience. Perhaps somewhat similar to a holographic illusion. Anil Seth calls it a “controlled hallucination” based on a prior expectation by the brain.Ok good. I thought you were saying there is no Hard Problem of Consciousness. Discovering exactly what this Emergent Property is, or what this Controlled Hallucination is, will be the work that must be undertaken.
steveklinko said; Ok good. I thought you were saying there is no Hard Problem of Consciousness. Discovering exactly what this Emergent Property is, or what this Controlled Hallucination is, will be the work that must be undertaken.I mentioned an emergent holographic experience. If you believe this is a mysterious phenomonon, you can make a holographic projector from the clear cover of a CD case.
Now imagine this happening inside your brain. You do not really “see” it, you are not looking at it. It is your brain experiencing the electro-chemical stream feeding the image as if we are looking into a mirror and see our abstract reflection. In this case the mirror is located inside our brain’s memory banks and “triggered” by the electro -chemical stimulus.
The thing is that the brain never “sees” anything at all, the eyes do, but translate all images into electro-chemical signals (similar to a computer’s binary digital translation), which are then retranslated by the brain as a “visual experience”.
IMO, the hologram is the best analogy. A hologram has no substance, and may be experienced by the brain as a small emergent internal experiential mirage…
I mentioned an emergent holographic experience. If you believe this is a mysterious phenomonon, you can make a holographic projector from the clear cover of a CD case.Now imagine this happening inside your brain. You do not really “see” it, you are not looking at it. It is your brain experiencing the electro-chemical stream feeding the image as if we are looking into a mirror and see our abstract reflection. In this case the mirror is located inside our brain’s memory banks and “triggered” by the electro -chemical stimulus.
The thing is that the brain never “sees” anything at all, the eyes do, but translate all images into electro-chemical signals (similar to a computer’s binary digital translation), which are then retranslated by the brain as a “visual experience”.
IMO, the hologram is the best analogy. A hologram has no substance, and may be experienced by the brain as a small emergent internal experiential mirage……
@write4u I am really not that well schooled. But I usually know where to look for information and that saves years of study….Well played !
#333672 was very cool. But I’m supposed to be working on Hoffman this morning. I’m so undisciplined. 
@steveklinko Discovering exactly what this Emergent Property is, or what this Controlled Hallucination is, will be the work that must be undertaken.What do you think we should learn from it?
What difference (do you think) will defining that final link between neural impulse and Mindscape make, once we crack that puzzle?
@citizenschallengev3What do you think we should learn from it?What difference (do you think) will defining that final link between neural impulse and Mindscape make, once we crack that puzzle?
Optical effects are interesting. But I would say that neither the Eyes, nor the Brain can See anything. It is the Conscious Mind that Sees. The Eyes are the Front End sensors and Processing stages. The Brain is strictly a further Processing stage. The Conscious Mind is the Final Processing stage. Your Mind Experiences the Conscious Light Scene.If you can read this, then you are the Conscious Mind that Sees this. How you (i.e. the Conscious Mind) are connected to the Brain and the Eyes with regard to Optical effects is pure conjecture. The Conscious Mind Experience is not limited to the Conscious Light Scene but encompasses the entire field of Conscious Experience of touch, taste, sound, and smell also. Why does the Conscious Mind inquire into the nature of Conscious Experiences?
@sree If you can read this, then you are the Conscious Mind that Sees this. How you (i.e. the Conscious Mind) are connected to the Brain and the Eyes with regard to Optical effects is pure conjecture. The Conscious Mind Experience is not limited to the Conscious Light Scene but encompasses the entire field of Conscious Experience of touch, taste, sound, and smell also. Why does the Conscious Mind inquire into the nature of Conscious Experiences?Because the Conscious Mind (at least mine) wants to know everything. No one can know everything, but we do the best we can do.
Because the Conscious Mind (at least mine) wants to know everything. No one can know everything, but we do the best we can do.We are in agreement about the definition of the Conscious Mind, that it is a field of sensory perception in terms of sight, hearing, taste, touch, and smell. "Wanting to know" is something else. It is a reaction, a response to the field of perception. Apparently, the Conscious Mind is not just a passive field of sensory perception. There is a "wanting to know". How does this arise and what causes this?
We are in agreement about the definition of the Conscious Mind, that it is a field of sensory perception in terms of sight, hearing, taste, touch, and smell. “Wanting to know” is something else. It is a reaction, a response to the field of perception. Apparently, the Conscious Mind is not just a passive field of sensory perception. There is a “wanting to know”. How does this arise and what causes this?Good question, and there are many other questions like that. I study Conscious Sensory Perception and especially the Conscious Perception of Light because I can use a Reverse Engineering approach to study it. I can see the path of processing from the Physical Light hitting the Retina to the Processing in the Visual Cortex and then the appearance of an Image on my Conscious Light Screen that is embedded in the front of my face. There is an Explanatory gap however between the processing in the Cortex and the Image that I ultimately See. That Gap is what I am exclusively studying. I believe that when this Explanatory Gap for Visual Experience is understood then all the other Sensory Experiences will be understood. I think that this will open the door to an understanding of what the Experiencer itself is and then to what is something like "Wanting to Know". I think "Wanting to Know" is a more Abstract aspect of Consciousness than Sensory Perception. I think people should pick an aspect of Consciousness and concentrate on it exclusively rather than jumping around between all the different aspects of Consciousness.
@steveklinko - September 6, 2020 at 1:05 pm @citizenschallengev3: "What do you think we should learn from it?"What difference (do you think) will defining that final link between neural impulse and Mindscape make, once we crack that puzzle?
We will learn how to make Conscious Computers and possibly understand how to communicate with other Galaxies across the Universe. But probably most important we may learn something about what we are in the Universe. This could answer the question as to if Consciousness can survive Death. It will give birth to a whole new Epoch in Human understanding.</blockquote> But probably most important we may learn something about what we are in the Universe. I'm left mystified by such questions, we can see what we are in the Universe, incredibly special in some ways, outrageously stupid and selfish in others, and overall in the grand scheme of things a flash in the pan. By what right do we expect ourselves to be something more special than that? As for consciousness - how in the universe, could a Consciousness that is formed of our flesh and blood and experiences and the brain's interaction with physical reality, continue once's that body that did all the hard receiving and processing dies and goes away? It'
As for consciousness – how in the universe, could a Consciousness that is formed of our flesh and blood and experiences and the brain’s interaction with physical reality, continue once’s that body that did all the hard receiving and processing dies and goes away?Your inquiry is conditioned by the premise that Consciousness "is formed of our flesh and blood". Ask yourself this question: Which comes first? The brain or Consciousness? Does the brain come upon the Conscious Mind and deduce that the latter is its product? Or is it the other way round: the Conscious Mind perceives the brain and concludes that the latter is its creator?
It is obvious to any reasonable inquirer that the brain is an organ not different from the lungs or heart and incapable of making claims about anything. Therefore, it is the Conscious Mind that asserts that the brain is its creator. Isn’t this laughable when the Conscious Mind rejects all creationist ideology?
But probably most important we may learn something about what we are in the Universe. I’m left mystified by such questions, we can see what we are in the Universe, incredibly special in some ways, outrageously stupid and selfish in others, and overall in the grand scheme of things a flash in the pan. By what right do we expect ourselves to be something more special than that?As for consciousness – how in the universe, could a Consciousness that is formed of our flesh and blood and experiences and the brain’s interaction with physical reality, continue once’s that body that did all the hard receiving and processing dies and goes away?
With the Conscious Mind not even being located in Physical Space it is easy to imagine it surviving in Conscious Space when the Physical Brain goes away.Precisely. Consciousness has no physical qualities and, therefore, cannot exist in the realm of Physical Space where the Physical Brain resides. Physical Space is within the field of Conscious Experience and not the other way round.
Classical scientific concepts of Physical Space are being questioned by theoretical physicists today because those “scientific truths” are inconsistent with Conscious Experience of experimental observations. Therefore, the Speculation of survival of the Conscious Mind in Conscious Space when the Physical Brain goes away merits studying.
Physical Space is within the field of Conscious Experience and not the other way round.That's implying that your conscious experience creates the universe - to me that seems self-centeredness and hubris maximus.
Classical scientific concepts of Physical Space are being questioned by theoretical physicists today because those “scientific truths” are inconsistent with Conscious Experience of experimental observations.
well that combined with establishing impossible expectations.
Therefore, the Speculation of survival of the Conscious Mind in Conscious Space when the Physical Brain goes away merits studying.So says the sree that constantly casually disregards fundamental geophysical facts of our Earth.
My conviction come from self study, first decades lots of wrestling with the Jesus, then god question, then it got resolved and faded into a non-issue.
Then it was on to the questions of self, who am I, what am I, what is my purpose, why must I die, what happens to me after I die.
Our lives are so active and changing, people always coming and going, family & social networks constantly changing, my body constantly changing and impacting every aspect of my interactions with the world around me - all that opposed to the manmade emotion that I don’t want to die, because I’m terrified of death and hate it, hate it, hate it, it’s bad, I don’t want to die I want to live forever, I must find a way to continue. (that is the collective “I”)
All you have is handwaving - in the end there’s nothing to supposed that a light can continue glowing after the filament burns out, because the necessary hardware has been broken. Pragmatically speaking, since all I know comes through my body and its senses and it’s brain’s processing abilities, ergo once that body is broken and dead, the processing stops, the sense of awareness and memory of necessity also dissolves back into Earth’s biosphere - since we are confined to this Earth and every atom of your body has been recycled countless times, and upon your death they return to Earth.
In the mindscape of your conscious imagination anything is possible - in the pragmatic world of physical reality, (which despite all the religious spiritual protestations, is all we have), you are stuck following Earth’s ways and means.
Had time for a little surfing, quite a bit out there about heaven/hell being a human concept that can be traced through history. This one seemed rather promising and worth tossing in here.
Bible scholar Bart Ehrman on why everything you’ve been told about heaven and hell is wrongBy Yonat Shimron | Religion News Service
· Published: March 27, 2020This idea of heaven and hell is really about theodicy, or why God allows evil, right?
The way it developed historically is that in the oldest texts in our civilization, when people die, there’s no joy or pleasure after death. You get that in Homer and in the Old Testament. Then people began thinking that’s not fair. In pagan religions, it was not a problem because people believed there are good gods and bad gods. If bad things happen to you it’s because of the bad gods. Jews and Christians couldn’t say that because there’s only one God. How do you explain the bad things happening?
It’s because after this life God will reward the righteous and punish the wicked. It’s all about establishing justice.
After a couple of centuries, Christians wondered whether it makes sense to torture people in eternity for 25 years of bad living. So it creates still more theodicy problems.
CitizensChallengeV3: All you have is handwaving – in the end there’s nothing to supposed that a light can continue glowing after the filament burns out, because the necessary hardware has been broken. Pragmatically speaking, since all I know comes through my body and its senses and it’s brain’s processing abilities, ergo once that body is broken and dead, the processing stops, the sense of awareness and memory of necessity also dissolves back into Earth’s biosphere – since we are confined to this Earth and every atom of your body has been recycled countless times, and upon your death they return to Earth.I know you had a different intention with this paragraph but lets talk about the Perception of Light. Think about the Light that you See. Is the Light you See actually the Filament itself? In my way of understanding Visual Perception the Electromagnetic Physical Light impinges on the Retina and is immediately turned into Neural Impulses that travel to the Cortex. Your Conscious Mind will only See Light when specific Neurons fire. You are never Seeing the Physical Light from the Filament but rather you are Seeing some Surrogate substitution for the Filament Light which Philosophers call the Light Qualia, but which I like to call the Conscious Light because it only exists in our Conscious Minds. There is no Explanation for this Conscious Light that we See. All we know is that Neurons fire and the Conscious Light is Experienced. You can rub your eye and See Lights. You are stimulating Visual Neurons that produce this apparent Light in your Mind. Scientists have been trying to push this Conscious Light Phenomenon back into the Neurons for a hundred years. I just cannot be Explained by the firing of Neurons. No matter how hard you try to Explain it with the Neurons, the Conscious Light refuses to be pushed into the Neurons. The Conscious Light just simply and always just appears on your Visual Conscious Light Screen that is embedded in the front of your face. The Conscious Light is obviously something that might not even bein Physical Space. There is good reason to speculate that there may be a whole different kind of Realm or Conscious Space for Conscious Experiences to exist in. This Conscious Space seems to be something in addition to Physical Space and Physical things. The temptation to think the Conscious Mind might still exist after the Physical Mind (Brain) is gone is not such a huge stretch of the imagination. If Science can someday make the case and actually show how the Conscious Light is in the Neurons the that will be great. But for now Science has not got the first Clue about what this Conscious Light could be and how it comes out of the Neurons and into the Conscious Mind.