Sexism is rampant everywhere. Wherever there are man and women working together sexism will come into the picture sooner or later.
Probably true, but why do many people insist men and women should work together?
It's a sign of a lack of confidence in one's own abilities.
Usually the women.
We need to raise girls to stop deferring to men because they are males and to develop confidence in their own abilities.
In some instances, women will inevitably defer to men because men are better at handling the particular situation. Even if the men are egalitarians and refuse to acknowledge the womans deferment, the women still want them to take control. (This probably happens a lot in science, since male scientists are often awkward nerds who are desperate for female approval.)
In others situations the women would rather not have the men around at all, but women never want men to defer to them.
I blame religion, especially the Christian religion for indoctrinating both men and women with the idea that men are superior and women are inferior. It infects and destroys every area of our lives.
Lois
Men are intrinsically superior to women in some ways and inferior to them in other ways, and vice versa; it has nothing to do with religion, or how a person is raised. At your age you must know this, but haven't been able to accept it - except when the women come out looking better.
Men are intrinsically superior to women in some ways and inferior to them in other ways, and vice versa; it has nothing to do with religion, or how a person is raised. At your age you must know this, but haven't been able to accept it - except when the women come out looking better.
Care to back that up with some actual data or are we just supposed to accept your personal bias as fact? Yeah the average man can lift bigger rocks than the average woman. Not sure that comes up a lot in the lab though. When it comes to science and math there is no evidence I am aware of that men are any more skilled or have better genetics for this than women and that is what we are discussing here.
Men are intrinsically superior to women in some ways and inferior to them in other ways, and vice versa; it has nothing to do with religion, or how a person is raised. At your age you must know this, but haven't been able to accept it - except when the women come out looking better.
Care to back that up with some actual data or are we just supposed to accept your personal bias as fact? Yeah the average man can lift bigger rocks than the average woman. Not sure that comes up a lot in the lab though. When it comes to science and math there is no evidence I am aware of that men are any more skilled or have better genetics for this than women and that is what we are discussing here.
Men are better at logic, spatial thinking, more focused and task oriented, more willing to take risks - all necessary for science and engineering. Women are better communicators, better at intuitive thinking, and multitasking - necessary for running the front office.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisalvo/2013/12/08/study-the-brains-of-men-and-women-are-different-very-different/
Ragini Verma, a researcher at the University of Pennsylvania who co-authored the study, told BBC News that she believes the biggest surprise was how much the findings evidence old stereotypes about the sexes.
You can’t just pick and choose the quote that reinforces your own personal biases and expect that to go unchallenged. From that very same article…
"It’s crucial to note, however, that simply because brain wiring appears to be different between female and male brains, that does not mean that any individual is predetermined to follow a particular “neurally wired" path in life. There are far too many confounding variables to draw anything close to such a conclusion. Quite clearly, men can excel at interpersonal and memory-focused tasks just as women can excel at tasks requiring high levels of motor coordination and spatial processing abilities. To say that this study has provided evidence to support sexual stereotypes is an overstatement at best."
also, and this is not new..
."It’s also important to note that research about the function-specific attributes of the left and right hemispheres of the brain is an ongoing source of debate. Some have gone so far as to argue that the left-right hemisphere dichotomy is a trumped up theory that borders on being little more than a popular myth."
And finally there is this quote:
"An additional caveat — this study has also come under fire by statisticians who looked at the numbers and agree that while the results do show a difference between the number of cross-hemisphere connections between male and female brains, the outcomes are not as substantial as originally interpreted. Indeed, when reanalyzed, one of the striking outcomes of this study seems to be how much overlap exists between neural connections in female and male brains."
There is a lot of controversy about the use of functional MRI and real concerns about drawing conclusions from their findings, and the left right theory of brain function has been under attack for along time. The brain is far more complex than this simple idea portrays.
A more accurate depiction of what happens in the real world is to look at how people perform in real world settings such as summarized in this study: Gender, Mathematics, and Science].
"evidence from meta-analysis and process analysis indicate that (a) gender differences on cognitive and psychosocial tasks are small and declining, (b) gender differences are not general but specific to cultural and situational contexts, (c) gender differences in cognitive processes often reflect gender differences in course enrollment and training, and (d) gender differences in height, physical strength, career access, and earning power are much larger and more stable than gender differences on cognitive and psychosocial tasks. These trends imply that small gender differences in cognitive and psychosocial domains be deemphasized and instead that learning and earning environments be redesigned to promote gender equity."
Its also important to keep in mind the danger of generalizing. Its as foolish to say woman aren;t as good at math as it is to say blacks aren;t as good at math. Much of the difference is environmental (differences in expectations and opportunities) and individual differences are far greater than the small differences in group averages. There are lots of women who are far better at math than men. Both of my daughters got perfect 800's on their SAT's and they both won the math award for the best math student in their class at high school graduation beating out about 150 men on each occasion.
Generalizations are the last refuge of bigots, racists, and sexists. They certainly have no place in the world of science employment.
I’m not reading past the first few words of mid atlantic’s anymore. It’s like he’s perusing misogynist chat rooms and cutting and pasting things from there.
I'm not reading past the first few words of mid atlantic's anymore. It's like he's perusing misogynist chat rooms and cutting and pasting things from there.
I agree. His posts have been getting more and more outlandish over time. He reminds me of my arch-conservative cousins; all rhetoric and no thinking.
This is all very interesting to me. Someone ought to tell the people at Brain Games. They’ve done more than one episode about how women TEND to be better at certain tasks than men. National Geographic TV Shows, Specials & Documentaries
Sexism is rampant everywhere. Wherever there are man and women working together sexism will come into the picture sooner or later.
Probably true, but why do many people insist men and women should work together?
They don't have to, the men can get out of the way.
It's a sign of a lack of confidence in one's own abilities.
Usually the women.
We need to raise girls to stop deferring to men because they are males and to develop confidence in their own abilities.
In some instances, women will inevitably defer to men because men are better at handling the particular situation. Even if the men are egalitarians and refuse to acknowledge the womans deferment, the women still want them to take control. (This probably happens a lot in science, since male scientists are often awkward nerds who are desperate for female approval.)
In others situations the women would rather not have the men around at all, but women never want men to defer to them.
I blame religion, especially the Christian religion for indoctrinating both men and women with the idea that men are superior and women are inferior. It infects and destroys every area of our lives.
Lois
Men are intrinsically superior to women in some ways and inferior to them in other ways, and vice versa; it has nothing to do with religion, or how a person is raised. At your age you must know this, but haven't been able to accept it - except when the women come out looking better.
Sorry, but it has everything to do with religion. Religion was created by men, after all, mostly misogynist men. Read the bible, both Testaments. Read the Koran. All are filled to the brim with misogyny.
Lois
A more accurate depiction of what happens in the real world is to look at how people perform in real world settings such as summarized in this study: Gender, Mathematics, and Science].
"evidence from meta-analysis and process analysis indicate that (a) gender differences on cognitive and psychosocial tasks are small and declining, (b) gender differences are not general but specific to cultural and situational contexts, (c) gender differences in cognitive processes often reflect gender differences in course enrollment and training, and (d) gender differences in height, physical strength, career access, and earning power are much larger and more stable than gender differences on cognitive and psychosocial tasks. These trends imply that small gender differences in cognitive and psychosocial domains be deemphasized and instead that learning and earning environments be redesigned to promote gender equity."
The last sentence says a lot about where the study is from, Berkeley - a notorious left wing school; its garbage.
You can't just pick and choose the quote that reinforces your own personal biases and expect that to go unchallenged. From that very same article...
"It’s crucial to note, however, that simply because brain wiring appears to be different between female and male brains, that does not mean that any individual is predetermined to follow a particular “neurally wired" path in life. There are far too many confounding variables to draw anything close to such a conclusion. Quite clearly, men can excel at interpersonal and memory-focused tasks just as women can excel at tasks requiring high levels of motor coordination and spatial processing abilities. To say that this study has provided evidence to support sexual stereotypes is an overstatement at best."
also, and this is not new..
."It’s also important to note that research about the function-specific attributes of the left and right hemispheres of the brain is an ongoing source of debate. Some have gone so far as to argue that the left-right hemisphere dichotomy is a trumped up theory that borders on being little more than a popular myth."
And finally there is this quote:
"An additional caveat — this study has also come under fire by statisticians who looked at the numbers and agree that while the results do show a difference between the number of cross-hemisphere connections between male and female brains, the outcomes are not as substantial as originally interpreted. Indeed, when reanalyzed, one of the striking outcomes of this study seems to be how much overlap exists between neural connections in female and male brains."
There is a lot of controversy about the use of functional MRI and real concerns about drawing conclusions from their findings, and the left right theory of brain function has been under attack for along time. The brain is far more complex than this simple idea portrays.
Its also important to keep in mind the danger of generalizing. Its as foolish to say woman aren;t as good at math as it is to say blacks aren;t as good at math. Much of the difference is environmental (differences in expectations and opportunities) and individual differences are far greater than the small differences in group averages. There are lots of women who are far better at math than men. Both of my daughters got perfect 800's on their SAT's and they both won the math award for the best math student in their class at high school graduation beating out about 150 men on each occasion.
Generalizations are the last refuge of bigots, racists, and sexists. They certainly have no place in the world of science employment.
As you mentioned earlier, you are angry about this because you have daughters, but the fact is generalizations are highly useful in the real world, and in scientific investigation; I'm sure you're OK with the many generalizations used in medicine.
Of course there are exceptions, but there's no reason to doubt that men are generally better at most STEM fields.
A more accurate depiction of what happens in the real world is to look at how people perform in real world settings such as summarized in this study: Gender, Mathematics, and Science].
"evidence from meta-analysis and process analysis indicate that (a) gender differences on cognitive and psychosocial tasks are small and declining, (b) gender differences are not general but specific to cultural and situational contexts, (c) gender differences in cognitive processes often reflect gender differences in course enrollment and training, and (d) gender differences in height, physical strength, career access, and earning power are much larger and more stable than gender differences on cognitive and psychosocial tasks. These trends imply that small gender differences in cognitive and psychosocial domains be deemphasized and instead that learning and earning environments be redesigned to promote gender equity."
The last sentence says a lot about where the study is from, Berkeley - a notorious left wing school; its garbage.
Typical ideological response. When the data refute your opinion reject the data, and with an ad hominem even.
As you mentioned earlier, you are angry about this because you have daughters, but the fact is generalizations are highly useful in the real world, and in scientific investigation; I'm sure you're OK with the many generalizations used in medicine.
Of course there are exceptions, but there's no reason to doubt that men are generally better at most STEM fields.
There is every reason to doubt that men are better at STEM based on the fact that women were not given equal opportunities for many year and still are disadvantaged as evidenced by the ignorant comments of Hunt who runs a lab and obviously discriminates against women. Also the fact that many of the old disparities between men and women in their performance on STEM exams is rapidly decreasing.
I am OK with using generalizations derived from science when we need to in order to treat patients. Most people at high risk for coronary artery disease will do better if we can get their LDL down but using generalizations in order to award jobs is wrong because the differences between individuals far outstrips any differences between groups. As a man you may be a member of a group that does better on math than women but both of my daughters would kick your ass on a calculus exam. Should we discriminate against a person simply because they are a member of a group that scores at a slightly lower level than someone in a different group? Should we hire some ignorant low intelligence white guy for a job over a brilliant black woman because white men do better on average on math tests?
As i said before, generalizations are the last refuge of bigots, racists, and sexists and your comments seem to solidify that statement.
A more accurate depiction of what happens in the real world is to look at how people perform in real world settings such as summarized in this study: Gender, Mathematics, and Science].
"evidence from meta-analysis and process analysis indicate that (a) gender differences on cognitive and psychosocial tasks are small and declining, (b) gender differences are not general but specific to cultural and situational contexts, (c) gender differences in cognitive processes often reflect gender differences in course enrollment and training, and (d) gender differences in height, physical strength, career access, and earning power are much larger and more stable than gender differences on cognitive and psychosocial tasks. These trends imply that small gender differences in cognitive and psychosocial domains be deemphasized and instead that learning and earning environments be redesigned to promote gender equity."
The last sentence says a lot about where the study is from, Berkeley - a notorious left wing school; its garbage.
Typical ideological response. When the data refute your opinion reject the data, and with an ad hominem even.
True. And the data I provided was directly applicable to the question whereas the data mid provided was based entirely on theory, much of which has been called into question such as the right brain left brain dichotomy and the clinical interpretation of FMRI data
A more accurate depiction of what happens in the real world is to look at how people perform in real world settings such as summarized in this study: Gender, Mathematics, and Science].
"evidence from meta-analysis and process analysis indicate that (a) gender differences on cognitive and psychosocial tasks are small and declining, (b) gender differences are not general but specific to cultural and situational contexts, (c) gender differences in cognitive processes often reflect gender differences in course enrollment and training, and (d) gender differences in height, physical strength, career access, and earning power are much larger and more stable than gender differences on cognitive and psychosocial tasks. These trends imply that small gender differences in cognitive and psychosocial domains be deemphasized and instead that learning and earning environments be redesigned to promote gender equity."
The last sentence says a lot about where the study is from, Berkeley - a notorious left wing school; its garbage.
Typical ideological response. When the data refute your opinion reject the data, and with an ad hominem even.There's enough conflicting data to do so, which I posted several days ago.
There is every reason to doubt that men are better at STEM based on the fact that women were not given equal opportunities for many year and still are disadvantaged as evidenced by the ignorant comments of Hunt who runs a lab and obviously discriminates against women. Also the fact that many of the old disparities between men and women in their performance on STEM exams is rapidly decreasing.
Give it a rest with the equal opportunities shit, there's never been some worldwide conspiracy to keep women out of science. Female scientists existed in the past and some did great things, but then as now, most women will never be drawn to STEM because of the aforementioned differences between sexes.
but using generalizations in order to award jobs is wrong because the differences between individuals far outstrips any differences between groups.
Jobs are already awarded using generalizations. And Lewontin was wrong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Genetic_Diversity:_Lewontin's_Fallacy
Should we discriminate against a person simply because they are a member of a group that scores at a slightly lower level than someone in a different group? Should we hire some ignorant low intelligence white guy for a job over a brilliant black woman because white men do better on average on math tests?
Sometimes we should. However, Hunt did not say this (I did) Hunt said having women in the lab complicates matters because of the undeniable differences between men and women. And he's right. He never said no women in science.
As i said before, generalizations are the last refuge of bigots, racists, and sexists and your comments seem to solidify that statement.
My bigotry doesn't negate the fact that I'm right.
"Fairness" is way overrated.
Mid there has been a bias against women in the STEM fields since there were STEM fields. Mayeb you should read a book about women in science some time and gain a better understanding of the huge contributions women have made often with no credit given at all. Rosalind Franklin who’s research was pivotal to the discovery of DNA and which was stolen by Watson and Crick along with a share of the nobel prize is just one example
Your misogynistic attitude is the way many men have viewed women. Since men were the ones with the political power in STEM fields they have held women back just as Hunt has no doubt done with his adolescent attitude in his lab.
Jobs should never be awarded based on biases and group generalizations. We want the best person for the job not the one who is a member of the best group. Anyone who would hire a white guy over a superiorly qualified black woman would be an idiot. If he is doing this in his own company then he only hurts himself but a scientist who is doing this with my money and everyone else’s through public grants has no business being in the lab or in any other position where he makes decisions on hiring, firing, and promotions with public money.
Hunt may have not said women shouldn’t be in science but he disparaged them and their contributions. There should be no tolerance for that in science and I suspect there won’t be since most educated people are not as narrow minded and immature as he clearly is.
Your bigotry does not in itself invalidate your arguments.That would be ad hominem. Your lack of reasoning is what invalidates your arguments.
In regards to your comment that there is “enough conflicting data” to reject the study I presented you with, there is not. You quoted a single study and selectively chose the quotes that supported your point of view while omitting many other statements from the very same article that undermined your position. I pointed this out already but you selectively chose to ignore that as well. Then you went on to reject the study I presented simply because you dislike the politics of the institution it comes from even though it has a stellar academic reputation. I am sorry but the Heritage Foundation doesn’t do this sort of research so it may be difficult to find anything you would accept.
Coming to the discussion late, but what’s the big deal? Since when does the statement of a single person count as “the way it is”? Hunt is wrong, but his opinion is his opinion. My opinion is women should rule the world. There, there’s one opinion. Does that mean I’m therefore completely correct? Geeze I think we should just get over ourselves and take a longer view of things. Someday women will be more represented in all walks of life. I think the thing folks like MidAtlantic object to is the process being forced on society.
And the other piece of the puzzle, and it’s a tricky one, is that gee, what if the truth of the matter is that the genders ARE IN FACT different? Then should we force equality?
Coming to the discussion late, but what's the big deal? Since when does the statement of a single person count as "the way it is"? Hunt is wrong, but his opinion is his opinion. My opinion is women should rule the world. There, there's one opinion. Does that mean I'm therefore completely correct? Geeze I think we should just get over ourselves and take a longer view of things. Someday women will be more represented in all walks of life. I think the thing folks like MidAtlantic object to is the process being forced on society.
And the other piece of the puzzle, and it's a tricky one, is that gee, what if the truth of the matter is that the genders ARE IN FACT different? Then should we force equality?
I think you are missing the point. Hunt is certainly entitled to his opinion and he is entitled to go public with it but so is everyone who spoke out against his ideas. I have no problem with that. Free speech does not mean you get to express yourself publicly with the expectation that you will be safe from any criticism. It never has. That's the whole point of free speech.
I don;t think anyone is saying that there aren't gender differences. The fact that there are is fairly obvious. What we are saying is two things. First Hunt is implying that women don't belong in the lab with men because a) they are a distraction, and b) they are too emotional. On both counts Hunt is incorrect
If women are a distraction to men on occasional then men are also a distraction to women on occasion. This goes for all walks of life. To follow this argument to its natural conclusion we would have to have segregated offices in every field of work. That is neither practical nor necessary. Mature intelligent men and women can compartmentalize this so they get their work done at work and deal with the attraction later. They do it every day. Most people are better able to deal with this than Hunt seems to be.
On his second point I have worked with women my entire career and despite working under very harsh conditions at times (brutal criticism on morning rounds after 24 hours on call with no sleep) I have never found them to be handcuffed or disadvantaged by emotional outbursts. The idea that they are is obviously a narrow minded view of someone who has had limited experience with women in this capacity.
Again to reiterate what I said to Mid above. There are certainly group differences but the differences between individuals are far greater than the differences between group averages. Generalizations about people allow us to unfairly apply traits, strengths, and weaknesses that may not be accurate, serve no purpose and do a great injustice to the individual.
In regards to the comment about forcing equality, there may be some merit to that in a limited way. Not many people would like all bathrooms to be unisex just to be equal but where there should be equality it should be encouraged and even mandated at times. In the case we are discussing here its simply a matter of putting public pressure on principal investigators who are publicly funded so that they understand that narrow minded biases and prejudices will not be tolerated. I think that is a reasonable approach.
Just consider what your response would have been had Hunt made similar comments about black scientists.
…“First Hunt is implying that women don’t belong in the lab with men because a) they are a distraction, and b) they are too emotional. On both counts Hunt is incorrect.”
I am NOT convinced that he actually meant that any woman does not belong to any lab. Perhaps he has some sexual deprivation or psychological trauma that makes him personally destructed by a presence of a woman or by their emotions.
We are all different and if these (women) destructing him, I feel sorry for the guy. Some scientists are like children, they may be cable of easily understanding special relativity and at the same time they put themselves in awkward situations all the time. Besides, he is not a politician or an official representative/policy maker for the scientific society. In reality, he is just a private citizen (at least in my eyes) who expressed his opinion.
No one bothered to get clarification of what he really meant. Instead, he quickly became a target for variety of feminists/freedom/democracy defenders/protectors. The fact that he apologized for his words means very little, he could have been advised by his institution (PR) to do so. This just proves that we are very quick to judge others and care little of the consequences of our (miss)judgements to a (may be innocent) person.
“Opinions expressed are solely my own and do not express the views or opinions of my employer”
