Seculiarism and Death.

Religion and Secularism
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From Wikipedia, on the Lama

Following reported signs and visions, three search teams were sent out to the north-east, the east, and the south-east to locate the new incarnation when the boy who was to become the 14th Dalai Lama was about two years old.[21] Sir Basil Gould, British delegate to Lhasa in 1936, related his account of the north-eastern team to Sir Charles Alfred Bell, former British resident in Lhasa and friend of the 13th Dalai Lama. Amongst other omens, the head of the embalmed body of the thirteenth Dalai Lama, at first facing south-east, had turned to face the north-east, indicating, it was interpreted, the direction in which his successor would be found.

 

The team, led by Kewtsang Rinpoche, went first to meet the Panchen Lama, who had been stuck in Jyekundo, in northern Kham. The Panchen Lama had been investigating births of unusual children in the area ever since the death of the 13th Dalai Lama. He gave Kewtsang the names of three boys whom he had discovered and identified as candidates. Within a year the Panchen Lama had died. Two of his three candidates were crossed off the list but the third, a “fearless” child, the most promising, was from Taktser village, which, as in the vision, was on a hill, at the end of a trail leading to Taktser from the great Kumbum Monastery with its gilded, turquoise roof. There they found a house, as interpreted from the vision—the house where Lhamo Dhondup lived.

 

When the team visited, posing as pilgrims, its leader, a Sera Lama, pretended to be the servant and sat separately in the kitchen. He held an old mala that had belonged to the 13th Dalai Lama, and the boy Lhamo Dhondup, aged two, approached and asked for it. The monk said “if you know who I am, you can have it.” The child said “Sera Lama, Sera Lama” and spoke with him in a Lhasa accent, in a dialect the boy’s mother could not understand. The next time the party returned to the house, they revealed their real purpose and asked permission to subject the boy to certain tests. One test consisted of showing him various pairs of objects, one of which had belonged to the 13th Dalai Lama and one which had not. In every case, he chose the Dalai Lama’s own objects and rejected the others. Thus, it was the Panchen Lama who first discovered and identified the 14th Dalai Lama.

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living empirical evidence, if you cannot discredit the proof reported in Wikipedia.
That's not what evidence or proof means.
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Lol, I had not noticed that he use the word “purported” and the term “empirical evidence” in the same sentence referencing the same thing. How amusing.

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I am glad you caught it, Widdershin. I used the word “purported” to indicate that I am not the party presenting the proof. I am an observer. I would like to see how Lausten take Tibetan Buddhism apart. You can try to0.

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By the very definition that which is “purported” is not that for which there is “evidence”, empirical or otherwise. It is claimed, believed, alleged. You use the word “purported” when you are specifically NOT claiming that you know it to be true.

And what’s there to take apart? I don’t feel I really need to address the whole reincarnation thing as there is no evidence for it, just spiritual leaders claiming it. Karma, like salvation, is a nice claim. It’s a pleasant idea that death isn’t the end. Nothing more. Until someone can show otherwise, anyway.

Plus, I don’t really care about Buddhism. I’m a non-practicing Jehovah’s Witness. No, I don’t really believe any of the crap they believe and never have, but ever since I found out that the terrible thing that they think is going to happen to me on judgment day is actually what I already believe is going to happen to me when I die, that I just won’t exist any more, that’s the religion for me to fall from grace from.

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Lausten: You are very careful with your words Sree, which can be annoying. You challenge the physical and observable, but you don’t use much alternative words. That allows you to do these “who said anything about” posts. This drags out the conversation. It puts others in the position of trying to figure out what you getting to. I’ve decided you aren’t getting to anything. But I enjoy Write4’s posts.
The reason why you enjoy Write4U's posts is because he is responding to my questions in earnest, digging deep. And the reason why you are annoyed is because you are anticipating my moves like a hunter intent on taking down a coyote heading for the hen house. Critical inquiry, my dear Lausten, is an exploration of the unknown. If I know where I am getting to, it wouldn't be an honest inquiry, would it?
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I think I can recognize critical inquiry or the lack of it.

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Widdershin: I’m a non-practicing Jehovah’s Witness.
David Leon said he is a non-practicing homosexual. What the hell is that? If one is a non-practicing liar, then one is not a liar.

Non-practicing Jehovah’s Witness. What is the hidden message here? Why don’t you spit it out?

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Really.

Now Jehovah Witness, wow @Widdershins, where will the surprises end.

I’d love to run into you sometime. Like at a creaky old Greyhound station and discovering we are standing in line for a same long cross-country bus ride. Big country like across the prairie. A little smuggled hooch to help lube the conversation. Yeah, makes me think of the good old days. Bet it could be a fascinating fun ride.

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Who said anything about spiritual phenomena? I asked for factual, empirical evidence of DEATH! Forgive my shouting.
Sree seriously, isn't that precisely what W4U gave you at #318274.

I thought it was beautifully written, with one itty bitty oversight, omission.

Not only do we live in the memories of others, but we also live on in the cascading consequences of our various interactions with people and things as we lived our lives.

 

“empirical evidence” - What is it you want to measure?

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CC-v.3 said,

Not only do we live in the memories of others, but we also live on in the cascading consequences of our various interactions with people and things as we lived our lives.


Thanks for the very pertinent addition.

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David Leon said he is a non-practicing homosexual. What the hell is that? If one is a non-practicing liar, then one is not a liar.

Non-practicing Jehovah’s Witness. What is the hidden message here? Why don’t you spit it out?


It was a joke. A bit of a complex one, I will admit. Let me break it down.

First, I don’t want to be Jehovah’s Witness. I have no interest in their cooky religion and find the shunning practice to be a disgusting cult-like practice intended to punish anyone who leaves the church or gets out of line by cutting them off from all of their friends and family. Add to this the rule that you cannot befriend or spend any time you don’t have to with anyone outside of the church and the intention of the practice is clear; to send you into a spiraling depression should you dare disobey or leave. The offender may mistake this as being “separated from God” or may just kill themselves. Either way, the church wins. This is the most vulgar, disgusting form of control I have ever even heard of in a real-life situation, and a relationship with God is an abusive relationship to begin with.

As an atheist, what I believe will happen when I die is that I will cease to exist. “I” will be gone. That is what Jehovah’s Witnesses also believe happens when you die. They do not believe in a “soul” by the definition of most Christians. When you die, you are nothing. On judgement day God is going to remake all the corpse-people who were good and let them, mostly, into “Paradise Earth”. 144,000, all born in or before 1933, will get to go into Heaven. He will also raise the people who weren’t too bad and give them a chance, with the devil defeated and temptation not a thing any more, to accept Jesus. Say yes, go to paradise. Say no, cease to exist again. If someone is really bad, they just won’t be brought back at all. Essentially becoming a Jehovah’s Witness means you sacrifice in this life to give your clone an instant pass to paradise, even though all you have to do is not be Hitler and then have your clone answer “yes” to “the question”.

So, I believe when I die, I stop existing. JWs believe when I die, I stop existing. If I’m not part of their religion, AND I’m not too bad, my clone will get a second chance to get into paradise on judgement day. If he says no, he stops existing. If I’m really bad, I don’t earn a second chance for my clone. I simply stay not existing. Since I already believe that death means I don’t exist there is no incentive for me to practice the JW religion. BUT, since their beliefs match mine in all the points that matter, if there were one true religion, I want it to be THAT one because it means zero consequences for me.

@citizenschallengev3

Oh, I’m shy. That’s why I never come out of the bushes. But don’t worry. I’m always there…

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Widdershin: So, I believe when I die, I stop existing.
Approximately 150,000 people die every day, and in that time, 300,000 more are born. Based on your secular belief, is it any wonder that human life is measured in terms of death rate and birth rate? The separation of church from state enables governments to operate like processing plants in the management and control of human digits. And yet, we are horrified by what is happening in Godless China where an entire population of 1.4 billion people is marching to the soulless beat of science and technology. How do you practice humanism, a system of thought that places prime importance on every human being that, you believe, is dying at the rate of two per second?
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Sree said,

Approximately 150,000 people die every day, and in that time, 300,000 more are born

Yep, that’s about right. And it is a very worrysome mathematical picture.

Let me give you RT numbers and then explain to you the “exponential function”.

7,757,097,834 Current World Population
4,454,209 Births this year
232,437 Births today
1,869,984 Deaths this year
97,583 Deaths today
2,584,225 Net population growth this year
134,854 Net population growth today


The resulting numbers are subject to the “exponential function”

Its ubiquitous occurrence in pure and applied mathematics has led mathematician W. Rudin to opine that the exponential function is "the most important function in mathematics".[3] In applied settings, exponential functions model a relationship in which a constant change in the independent variable gives the same proportional change (that is, percentage increase or decrease) in the dependent variable. This occurs widely in the natural and social sciences; thus, the exponential function also appears in a variety of contexts within physics, chemistry, engineering, mathematical biology, and economics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_function

This basically translates into that @ 1 % steady growth, every 70 years, the numbers will double in size. @ 2%, this doubling time is cut in half to 35 years.

The mathematics of this leads to some very unwanted effects.

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Ah yes, the joy of compound interest. What will Scrooge do with the surplus population? Eugenics in the Spartan state. The right to overcrowd the boat. We manage, or try to manage, every population on the planet except us. Nature takes care of the lemmings.

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The Exponential Function is the greatest dilemma humans must address when the population grows at any steady rate.

“Go forth and multiply” worked when there were few humans. Today we better multiply at a very slow rate, preferable at the same rate people die.

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Write4U: “Today we better multiply at a very slow rate, preferable at the same rate people die.”

Try convincing that 89-IQ gal in the project that she and her druggie “fiancee” shouldn’t have another kid. Or for that matter, the 140-IQ doctor that his 6 are the real problem (they are). Not going to happen. Governments won’t allow it. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_policy_in_Japan . Growth at any cost.

I doubt we will seriously address the problem until the whole world looks like Haiti. By then we would have to sterilize (probably by force) on the order of 200,000 women of early child bearing age every month for at at least 20 years to even stabilize the population. Not going to happen.

I expect nature will take care of the problem for us. She has a number of ways to do it, not the least of which is global warming. Call it boom bust or extinction cycles, it works either way.

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Write4U: “Today we better multiply at a very slow rate, preferable at the same rate people die.”

Bill Gates has a demo on this somewhere. It uses the data that shows countries that are modernized, result in stable populations, because people know they can invest more in a few kids, rather than play the numbers game of having many, knowing only a few will survive. That math is already slowing the population bomb and, if we keep bringing modern medicine and participatory government to the world, it will result in a drop off. But, too little, too late? who knows?

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Man, what a load of nonsense.

Approximately 150,000 people die every day, and in that time, 300,000 more are born. Based on your secular belief, is it any wonder that human life is measured in terms of death rate and birth rate?
By WHO? WHO is measuring human life in terms of population growth? YOU are the only one posting those particular numbers here. This is a disingenuous argument where you pretend that human life is meaningless to an unnamed "they" and try to get me on "your side" when the reality is this "they" other side never really existed.
The separation of church from state enables governments to operate like processing plants in the management and control of human digits.
The separation of church and state establishes equal rights. It prevents a portion of the populace from having complete control over the rest of us. It lets us, as parents, decide what moral values our children will be taught. It prevents unelected church leaders from dictating government policy to elected officials. It is one of the reasons settlers came to America in the first place. And the term comes from one of the founding fathers of this country, Thomas Jefferson, who always intended that separation to be there. There is ZERO reason YOUR church needs to be entwined with OUR government.
And yet, we are horrified by what is happening in Godless China where an entire population of 1.4 billion people is marching to the soulless beat of science and technology.
Oh, yeah, it's always because they don't follow your religion, isn't it? They're not godless because they were evil people who destroyed all religious influence so that they could have more control. No, they're evil people because they're godless. And the horse doesn't pull the cart. In reality the cart pushes the horse.

You do realize that much of your hyperbole is completely irrelevant to me, right? I’m “godless”. And I believe we are all “soulless”. Am I like the Chinese leaders? Would I choose to run over peaceful protestors with tanks? Or do I simply not hold the beliefs you have? Does it make me a bad person that I don’t believe in magical tales of wonder written 2,000+ years ago because I have never seen any magic? Does it really make me evil to simply not believe incredible, magical claims with no evidence to support them?

How do you practice humanism, a system of thought that places prime importance on every human being that, you believe, is dying at the rate of two per second?
I have no idea what you're even asking there. I can't have empathy for my fellow human beings because...some die sometimes? Um...everybody dies? I've kind of come to terms with that. Like, a really long time ago, some time as a child, when my brain matured enough for me to process the nature of death. And no, I don't want to kill everybody because they're going to die some day anyway. I do not think a death cannot be tragic because nobody lives forever. I do not think death is not sad, nor am I unaffected when someone close to me dies. In fact, it's worse for me than you because I do not hold onto any fantasies that I'm going to see them again some day when I get lucky enough to die. I hope I've answered whatever it is you were asking there. You didn't give me much to work with.
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Widdershin: Man, what a load of nonsense.
If you are to live true to your faith as a secular humanist, you need to ditch your dismissive attitude towards others with views opposed to your own. Disdain is the mark of the oligarch, the powerful, the impatient dictator who won't suffer fools and have no qualms in putting a quick end to them.
The separation of church and state establishes equal rights. It prevents a portion of the populace from having complete control over the rest of us. It lets us, as parents, decide what moral values our children will be taught.
Who are "us"? Who has an issue with the union of church and state? Have you ever been to church? There is the US flag in most American Christian churches. Back in the old west, since the founding of our nation, the church was central to American life. Families lived tens of miles apart in their respective homesteads in that hostile wilderness. They would gather in church on Sundays, the only time when they found fellowship, not with God but primarily with each other. It's still happening now, a cultural legacy of our past. If you are a latter day immigrant, 0f a different faith and culture, you are free to do your thing. Welcome to America, and don't rock the boat.
I can’t have empathy for my fellow human beings because…some die sometimes?
What fellow human beings? If you are a product of brain activity, you are just a fancy robot, a fake human being, with an ape-like body. Religion is time tested and has been around for several thousand years. Secularism is a relatively new program that you are trying to run on. Empathy is still a long way off.