David: Children are at an important stage of development, so they should always be told the truth. The truth is that no one knows what, if anything, to expect after death.Science witchery, to my mind, is more lethal than spiritual practices. It is possible to walk away from the Kingdom of Heaven. It is not as easy to ditch the Law of Gravity.
Science witchery, to my mind, is more lethal than spiritual practices. It is possible to walk away from the Kingdom of Heaven. It is not as easy to ditch the Law of Gravity.Why not?
I know how unbelievers operate. I would be glad to address any questions I may have failed to address. There’s only one of me compared to what? 4 or 5 of you.You can quit responding to so many threads and starting rants about how science is just like religion. It's really up to you.
BTW, statements like “I would be glad to address any questions” when you have consistently avoided doing that, is troll behavior.
@Lausten I’d like to stick around and play this game with you to it’s obvious conclusion but I’m afraid you haven’t a fraction of the intelligence I would need in order to consider it even remotely interesting.
Bye
Lausten you drove him away with your alleged miniscule intelligence. Score one for perceived low intelligence!
Tim: Lausten you drove him away with your alleged miniscule intelligence. Score one for perceived low intelligence!Damn right, David was driven away even though he was the better debater. He did not take my advice: "Never argue with a cop."
He did everything except say, “Please ban me so I can go tell my friends how unfairly I was treated. Come see the injustice inherent in the system. Help, Help, I’m being oppressed.”
Write4U: Of the billions of people who have died, how many have returned to tell you or anyone else their after death story? Seems to me that would surely make headlines around the world.People who have died? If we are to be scientific and critical in our inquiry, let's not be sloppy in our thinking. What have died, and will die, are human bodies - those ape-like organisms, one of which you believe you are inhabiting. Am I right, so far? Can you suspend your secular belief for a moment (if that is at all possible) and attend to the phenomenon of death itself? Don't speculate. I am not interested in theory. I am talking about proof: factual, empirical evidence of this phenomenon. You will have to experience death while the body is still vitally alive. Can you do it?
Lausten: Come see the injustice inherent in the system.And that is our folly: our belief in justice. This is the root of human conflict that Jesus told us to rip out of our system. Turn the other cheek.
I was hoping to debate with Dave on his understanding of the teaching of Jesus Christ.
Sree said,Can you suspend your secular belief for a moment (if that is at all possible) and attend to the phenomenon of death itself? Don’t speculate. I am not interested in theory. I am talking about proof: factual, empirical evidence of this phenomenon.
Thus if thought is a momentary (fleeting) product of brain activity, the destruction of the brain also eliminates the ability to produce thought or retain any memories.
A good example is the creation of music. When I pluck a string on my bass, each note is a momentary emergent wave which slowly dissipates and finally disappears altogether. This is a physical phenomenon which is observable and measurable by physical means until it decays and disappears.
Thoughts are internal waves produced by the brain and completely contained within the skull and is experienced only by the thinker and stored inside the thinkers brain as a memory. When the brain disintegrates all thought ceases and all memories are destroyed during the deterioration of the physical brain.
The only memory that is left is the memory of your expressed thoughts in brains others who were exposed. This is how the legacy of a person’s philosophies are passed on over time. This is the value of “story-telling”, it insures the continuation of a memory in the listeners.
Unless you can mind-read someone else’s thoughts at the moment another person thinks, how do you expect to be able to read the thoughts of a dead person who no longer has any thoughts or memories?
I need not prove to you what death means. You need to prove to me that death does not mean what is the commonly accepted definition.
Definition of death 1a: a permanent cessation of all vital physical functions : the end of life.There is nothing about the continuation of something except the memories of the death person by others, up to the point of his death.
When some preacher proclaims , “Jesus spoke to me”, he is delusional or lying. Jesus never spoke a word of English in his life. Any thoughts of communicating with Jesus are personally generated thoughts (delusions). These thoughts are self-generated and do not come from the aether.
Metaphysics and mythology Aether (classical element), the material supposed to fill the region of the universe above the terrestrial sphere Aether (mythology), the personification of the "upper sky", space and heaven, in Greek mythologyhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether
The fact Sree, is that no one can explain or provide proof: factual, empirical evidence of spiritual phenomena. The burden of proof rests on you.
Write4U: The fact Sree, is that no one can explain or provide proof: factual, empirical evidence of spiritual phenomena. The burden of proof rests on you.Who said anything about spiritual phenomena? I asked for factual, empirical evidence of DEATH! Forgive my shouting.
Write4U: I need not prove to you what death means. You need to prove to me that death does not mean what is the commonly accepted definition.The accepted definition of death (permanent cessation of all vital physical functions : the end of life) pertains to the death of the human body. You are asserting that when the body dies, you die along with it because you are a product of the brain. Are you telling me that the human brain came up with Darwin's theory about it's own evolution? And it is the human brain, which is an organ (of the human body like the heart or kidney or liver) that is unraveling the mystery of the universe?
I don’t think you can sell this story to a ten year old kid.
Sree said,Are you telling me that the human brain came up with Darwin’s theory about it’s own evolution? And it is the human brain, which is an organ (of the human body like the heart or kidney or liver) that is unraveling the mystery of the universe?
Humans did not invent evolution, we recognized how natural evolutionary processes work in nature. And farmers have used these natural principles to good use. They even managed to do away with natural selection and use artificial selection for beneficial traits such as the incredible milk producig cows such as The Jersey Cow.
As well as being one of the most friendly breeds, Jersey cows are famous for their high quality rich and creamy milk - naturally high in butter fat - which is used to produce an amazing range of Jersey dairy products from butter and ice-cream to yoghurt, clotted cream and cheese.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey_cattle
One of the animals Darwin studied in depth was the domestic rock pigeon. Pigeon breeding was an ancient pastime even in the 1850s, and through its long history fanciers had published books filled with practical advice and observations. Darwin decided to keep and breed pigeons himself.https://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/pigeons/whypigeons/
After decades of study, during which he could observe the effects of evolutionary processes, Darwin wrote his book “On the origin of species” wherein he set forth what became popularly known as “Darwinian evolution” of living organisms, as compared to Universal evolution which explains the gradual change from simple mathematical patterns to complex mathematical patterns, over long periods of time and as a result of “natural selection” of functional properties.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
I don’t think you can sell this story to a ten year old kid.Your argument sounds like a ten year old kid. If you refuse to study science, you will never undestand how the universe works and be stuck in the mindset of "God did it". That is the mindset of a ten year old.
When I was ten years old I had already studied Einstein’s Special Relativity and learned the mechanics of the Doppler effect, thanks to my father’s extensive science library. Ever heard of Einstein’s “man in the box” thought experiment? It gives you an entirely new perspective on “gravity”.
Our evolved ability for abstract mathematical thought enables us to recognize and unravel the mathematical mysteries of how the universe functions and enables us to manipulate these universal mathematical properties for our own purpose. But when it comes to recognizing amounts like “more” from “less”, a Lemur is as smart as any human.
We observed birds flying, so we developed the theory of “aerodynamics” and copied how birds do it, and we built the first airplanes which over time evolved into the 747 we fly today.
That’s not magic, that’s understanding natural mathematical properties of the air. “Lift” is a very simple aerodynamic principle, which we learned from studying the mathematical patterns of bird wings and to incorporate those patterns into the wings of our artificial birds.
The magic does not lie in ignorance and resignation to the concept of “God did it”, it lies in understanding the mathematics of Natural laws (universal constants) and be able to apply those laws for our own purposes.
The problem Sree, is not that scientists don’t know about Scripture, it is that religious people don’t know anything about Science.
Else the question of death should not be mysterious at all.
Anil Seth’s put it very plainly, “When you die there is nothing to worry about, nothing at all.”
I was hoping to debate with Dave on his understanding of the teaching of Jesus Christ.I was too. But he didn't really want to did he? He was asked legitimate questions and he ended up just calling us stupid. He didn't respond to responses, he just gave us explanations of his interpretations of scriptures. Maybe to him that was debating, but it's not to anyone else.
Also, he’s not blocked. I didn’t say anything to him that I haven’t said to fellow members, before I was a mod.
Who said anything about spiritual phenomena?You are very careful with your words Sree, which can be annoying. You challenge the physical and observable, but you don't use much alternative words. That allows you to do these "who said anything about" posts. This drags out the conversation. It puts others in the position of trying to figure out what you getting to. I've decided you aren't getting to anything. But I enjoy Write4's posts.
I don’t think you can sell this story to a ten year old kid.Have you ever tried teach BS to a ten year old? That's the age where either they decide to pretend to believe Sunday School, or they ask too many questions and get kicked out. They are figuring out that they are an independent thinking machine on this planet. They aren't really interested in some story of how their "self" existed before they were born because they have no memory of that. Death is not exactly on their radar either. But they are learning, and they get it that you can not know something one week and know it the next. They take great joy in showing off how they are smarter than the next kid. Some fancy philosophy about how we can't really know anything because we evolved from less complex beings would not impress them. They would say, "but I do know things".
That’s you. Accepting death with no understanding of this phenomenon is what people do. This is why death is still a mystery.What mystery? What understanding? What is it, exactly, I am missing and how can I look into it?
It’s life that’s the mystery. Death is pretty straight forward. How does the brain make “me”? How do all of these different systems work together to support each other? How is it that so much of “me” is actually microorganisms working in harmony with my own body? Why do I “feel”? Is there other life in the universe? Is it intelligent? Death isn’t any great mystery. It’s when the mystery ends.
Right on Widdershins. I could spend days trying to unpack what Sree is saying/asking in this post https://centerforinquiry.org/forums/topic/seculiarism-and-death/page/2/#post-318247
Or not.
Have I been blocked from posting? I will make a third attempt.
Lausten, in response to Bob: And has there ever been one from three days after being declared dead?The 14th Dalai Lama, Tenzhin Gaytso, would answer in the affirmative. He is purported to be the reincarnation of the 13th Dalai Lama: living empirical evidence, if you cannot discredit the proof reported in Wikipedia.
Have I been blocked from posting? I will make a third attempt.You would see "Blocked" underneath your name. And I'd probably tell you. I can see the two attempts in the log. Nothing explaining why it did that though.
