Republican/libertarian crowd, like talking to bricks in a wall.

I’ll admit, I’m human and that venomous trash talk of V and others is irritating and since I’ve never been one to roll over for malicious jerks I want to share some general thoughts (perhaps it’s just “processing”) that I wove into a quickie blog post this evening. I’m sure it’ll go right over their heads, but hey, we do what we can do.
Suffice it to say it’s some general observations - introduction to two talks I’ve embedded by Stephen Schneider which are excellent and well worth listening to, if you have the slightest interest in this topic.

I'm ever amazed at how little has changed so far as human thinking and the public discourse is concerned. Most of us continue to have no conception of, nor interest in, this thing we live on, planet Earth, nor for the biosphere we depend on for everything, nor for how all that is intimately tied to the state of our climate system. The Republican/libertarian crowd has staked their existence on digging ever deeper into their Faith-Based reason-hating alternate reality. A place where the state of our planet's health shrinks to irrelevance, while their self-pity and self-interest inflates to consume their entire world outlook. As for those who see our Earth differently, who appreciate it's interwoven folds within folds of complexity and dynamic balance, well we're seen as their enemies. It all seems stupid and counterproductive, hopeless even. I can't understand why so few are speaking out and complaining about that general acceptance of lies, slander and irrelevant emotion charged distractions in a discussion of such profound consequences. Lately work commitments have really piled up so my engagement with the AGW dialogue is pretty much shrunk down to quickie responds to those depressingly childish YouTube comments and my CFI 'hangout' - it bothers me that I can't focus on writing more, but hey, it's nice to still be in demand, and the jobs have been interesting, so I'm not complaining,… not too much. That's why I want to compensate by sharing some deep thoughts on the topic from someone who Presidents took advice from. You see a couple days ago I came upon one of Stephen Schneider's last talks. Sad to think he's been gone nearly six years already. It was also sad to see how few people had viewed the video, because here's another example of what a scientist sounds like, and this scientist was among the most knowledgeable of the old timers. He was also unfettered by professional constraints, since he knew this was among his last opportunities to share and he's as worth listening to today as he was back then. Even more so, considering how little among human thinking and attitude has actually changed these years and how important some of his insights are. For the videos, link to Crisis of Life, considering what AGW means. Stephen Schneider http://whatsupwiththatwatts.blogspot.com/2016/05/crisisoflife-agw-schneider.html

I’m coming to the the conclusion that it isn’t just pointless but actually harmful to try and engage the kind of people you describe. In the end it may be creating even more capable psychopaths.

I'm coming to the the conclusion that it isn't just pointless but actually harmful to try and engage the kind of people you describe. In the end it may be creating even more capable psychopaths.
I can see a lot of truth in that. Too much, but, ... do we just roll over and say it's okay to so grossly misrepresent the reality of this world… Earth? And what about raising awareness among the disinterested but still rational young generations? Attempting to teach critical thinking and provide learning opportunities, is it time to toss in the towel on that too? Or looking toward the more long term future, how about if old farts like me, continue making an issue of it, as an example so younger folks can better appreciate what they are up against with the Faith-based right-wing political crowd. Perhaps it will encourage them to keep a lower profile and to focus on networking with like minded and getting on with preparing for the tougher days ahead. You know it's going to get crazy on this road we're on. Sometimes it's stupefying to remember that as a young kid, I could still dream of blank places on the map, and a wild world waiting to be explored and discovered. Explorers and trappers and woodsmen were my hero figures, now kids have gangsters (of every strip), and dreams of ostentation consumption. Back then it all seemed so fantastic and full of opportunities, now from news reports I know that most the places I used to dream of visiting have turned into genuine hell holes for their inhabitants. A lousy half a century's time, it's all turned the corner to watching the consumption and cycles of war profiteering taking over and a shift to towards disintegration. Including human sanity as they descend back into faith-based paranoia-riddled tribalism. Like the song says: Maybe we had too much too fast. :down:
I can see a lot of truth in that. Too much, but, ... do we just roll over and say it's okay to so grossly misrepresent the reality of this world… Earth? And what about raising awareness among the disinterested but still rational young generations? Attempting to teach critical thinking and provide learning opportunities, is it time to toss in the towel on that too? Or looking toward the more long term future, how about if old farts like me, continue making an issue of it, as an example so younger folks can better appreciate what they are up against with the Faith-based right-wing political crowd. Perhaps it will encourage them to keep a lower profile and to focus on networking with like minded and getting on with preparing for the tougher days ahead. You know it's going to get crazy on this road we're on. Sometimes it's stupefying to remember that as a young kid, I could still dream of blank places on the map, and a wild world waiting to be explored and discovered. Explorers and trappers and woodsmen were my hero figures, now kids have gangsters (of every strip), and dreams of ostentation consumption. Back then it all seemed so fantastic and full of opportunities, now from news reports I know that most the places I used to dream of visiting have turned into genuine hell holes for their inhabitants. A lousy half a century's time, it's all turned the corner to watching the consumption and cycles of war profiteering taking over and a shift to towards disintegration. Including human sanity as they descend back into faith-based paranoia-riddled tribalism. Like the song says: Maybe we had too much too fast. :down:
I just watched Requiem For The American Dream which is a series of interviews by Noam Chomsky, it is amazing how much America and the world has changed. There isn't the hope for something better that existed in even some of the darkest times in the past. I think this is largely because the control freak sociopaths who measure everything in zero sum game terms have largely taken over and tried to remake the world in their image. Where the only thing that is really valued is wealth and the power that flows from it. What I meant by my comments is it's pointless to try and engage these "people" on their terms, just look at how Vyazma "discusses" things, it's all a sick game designed to always throw back on the opponent anything they present there's no real honesty, integrity or empathy being shown on their part at all. To just play their game is to lose. But as you say there is value in education and always making the best and clearest information available to those who are still open to reason and facts. "You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time." Houses built of cards always come down, just keep adding information to speed the process and don't work to help the sociopaths prop up their castles of lies.

And keep in mind that true democratic movements don’t talk about elimination of entire sections of society that are deemed “undesirable” for political, religious, ideological or other reasons…but that is exactly what lies under the rhetoric of the groups you’re discussing above. For them real “freedom” is the removal by any means of those they hate.
It’s why people like Sarah Palin really don’t get that putting cross-hairs on congresspersons she wanted to see removed was a truly despicable act as well as Donald Trump building support by resorting to xenophobia and spreading lies about Mexicans and Muslim Americans, thousands of which he claimed were partying on the rooftops of New Jersey as the towers came down on 9/11.
You can’t reason with people who see the world through those kind of hate stained lenses. You can just present the fact and let them hang themselves eventually…which they will because they’ve essentially declared war on the rest of us whether we admit it or not.

What I meant by my comments is it's pointless to try and engage these "people" on their terms, just look at how Vyazma "discusses" things, it's all a sick game designed to always throw back on the opponent anything they present there's no real honesty, integrity or empathy being shown on their part at all. To just play their game is to lose.
aw man, :ohh: and I just came running back here, with an article specially for Vyazma… :coolgrin: and, and besides, I thought of a good response to one of his recent swipes. :coolsmirk: This is just among the 5, 6 of us, or however V put it earlier, :) just a little locker room bitch slapping among pals :-P - I won't blog about it. :zip:

Seriously though.
Doug, thanks, your thoughts are always refreshing and worth chewing on.
I for one, am glad you’ve been hanging around and adding your commentary around the CFI neighborhood.
Definitely worth the listening too.

What I meant by my comments is it's pointless to try and engage these "people" on their terms, just look at how Vyazma "discusses" things, it's all a sick game designed to always throw back on the opponent anything they present there's no real honesty, integrity or empathy being shown on their part at all. To just play their game is to lose.
aw man, :ohh: and I just came running back here, with an article specially for Vyazma… :coolgrin: and, and besides, I thought of a good response to one of his recent swipes. :coolsmirk: This is just among the 5, 6 of us, or however V put it earlier, :) just a little locker room bitch slapping among pals :-P - I won't blog about it. :zip: I get what you're saying, it's human to want to win, but you're dealing with someone who most likely doesn't care in the slightest about anyone else's existence that's the secret to the "success" of people like that. Any attempt to fight back or assert your position in the format they eventually morph the "discussion" into is in the end used against you. As I said above, for us it's an attempt to appeal to reason, likely for them it's just one more opportunity to do as much damage as possible to create the kind of chaotic environment they crave.

To put it simpler any time you have the urge to put any effort into rebutting the kind of people you’re discussing keep in mind that no matter how well supported the evidence you present is, no matter how much of it there is, they will always find a way to distort it and feed it back in a way that is purely designed to erode rational discussion. It’s the last thing they want.
Just look at Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, Sean Hannity, Bill O’Reilly and more, the whole point is to pull the discussion down into the spiritual/intellectual sewers they live in.

To put it simpler any time you have the urge to put any effort into rebutting the kind of people you're discussing keep in mind that no matter how well supported the evidence you present is, no matter how much of it there is, they will always find a way to distort it and feed it back in a way that is purely designed to erode rational discussion. It's the last thing they want. Just look at Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly and more, the whole point is to pull the discussion down into the spiritual/intellectual sewers they live in.
Too true - two points. I hear what your saying, what's a better approach? Part of it, for me, is also this need to understand, to grasp, what's going on inside those heads. To be able to define it in words. ______________________________ I appreciate the advice, in a way I wish I could absorb it a bit more. In particular considering that one Dave Burton of some pro-CO2 blog has peppered me with half a dozen comments at one of my old blog posts. And to me his stuff seems a great vehicle for describing tactics. As it happens tomorrow scheduled work day has been cancelled due to fears of severe weather, so I'm ready to go at it. But, now that I think about it, this series won't be about arguing science, it's going to be about pointing out his malicious lies and pushing the concept that these deliberate deceivers of critically important scientific information are 'criminally negligent' and deserve to be reprimanded.
What I meant by my comments is it's pointless to try and engage these "people" on their terms, just look at how Vyazma "discusses" things, it's all a sick game designed to always throw back on the opponent anything they present there's no real honesty, integrity or empathy being shown on their part at all. To just play their game is to lose.
Yeah, you can huddle up with CC here, then you don't have to lose. You guys can bounce platitudes off one another all day long. I notice you didn't bother answering any of my questions in the Nazi/Banks conspiracy theory topic Doug. Where's the honesty Doug? The integrity? What other facts did you distort? What other methods of hyperbole will you use next? Run away....run away!

Well Vy, you’ve never explained why Donald Trump’s father was friends with Lee Harvey Oswald, so there.

Too true - two points. I hear what your saying, what's a better approach? Part of it, for me, is also this need to understand, to grasp, what's going on inside those heads. To be able to define it in words. ______________________________
The important part isn't what's going on inside their heads, it's what's not. There is a small but significant part of the population who fundamentally lack the ability to feel empathy, they don't feel remorse and they have no real emotional attachment to anything but their own interests. Which means they love to play and "win" games with absolutely no concern for the consequences to others. Just look at Vyazma response here, it's all about "winning" and trying to create the impression he strides among us ants like a giant. Total smoke and mirrors, to even engage them helps them create this illusion which requires a format, if left to their own they become the empty shells they truly are. How else can you describe someone who thinks it's funny to play mind games over a conflict that took the lives of tens of millions of people in support of the relatively few people who made sure it happened by funding both sides of the conflict.
I appreciate the advice, in a way I wish I could absorb it a bit more. In particular considering that one Dave Burton of some pro-CO2 blog has peppered me with half a dozen comments at one of my old blog posts. And to me his stuff seems a great vehicle for describing tactics. As it happens tomorrow scheduled work day has been cancelled due to fears of severe weather, so I'm ready to go at it. But, now that I think about it, this series won't be about arguing science, it's going to be about pointing out his malicious lies and pushing the concept that these deliberate deceivers of critically important scientific information are 'criminally negligent' and deserve to be reprimanded.
I guess what it comes down to is don't take any of it personally, because the person on the other side is almost certainly not doing so. It's how they win, they manipulate the debate to create an emotional response which they then turn on their "opponent". Not really feeling anything themselves this doesn't work in reverse, you're never going to get a sociopath to feel remorse and the more you educate them how empathetic people react in a given context the more effective sociopaths they become. I've been guilty of this in my own life. What it comes down to is, you're never going to win a mind game with a sociopath, because the whole point of the game is the emotional destruction of the participants. Sociopaths are already shallow effective, which means they feel little or nothing. They're still standing at the end of the process and move on to the next victim.
Well Vy, you've never explained why Donald Trump's father was friends with Lee Harvey Oswald, so there.
I didn't know that he was. Is that a fact?
How else can you describe someone who thinks it's funny to play mind games over a conflict that took the lives of tens of millions of people in support of the relatively few people who made sure it happened by funding both sides of the conflict.
Yes. Love it. Add water, makes it's own sauce. :lol: It always comes out in snippets. Little hints. For example: "There's no way anyone could sneak into a field at night and make crop circles that fast." Or, "There's a janitor who made a statement that this particular movie studio was heavily guarded by the CIA." In this case we have the classic "Godwin Fixation" The person can't help themselves. They are dying to fill up page upon page of historical gobbly-gook smattered with actual events. And the flourishes? You have to watch for those. "...and Nazi tanks rolled off of Ford assembly lines..." Just little bits dropped in here and there to fatten up the hyperbole. IBM knowingly helped the Nazis create computers to facilitate the holocaust... Etc etc... :-)
Well Vy, you've never explained why Donald Trump's father was friends with Lee Harvey Oswald, so there.
I didn't know that he was. Is that a fact? No. I made it up loosely based on the National Enquirer report of Ted Cruz' father hanging out with Oswald. So there is no basis for my statement.
In this case we have the classic "Godwin Fixation"
To be clear, Godwin's law applies to the spurious use of comparisons to Hitler and the Nazi's, in the discussion involved direct involvement in support of Hitler and the rebuilding of the German industrial and military base was being discussed and there is no historical doubt that many wealthy individuals in the western world and the corporations and banks they controlled played an essential part in the resumption of war in Europe in 1939 and the millions of deaths that followed. Few if any of those people were ever held responsible. Pretending this isn't the case is close to or full on Holocaust denial, either with outright contradicting the facts or playing some idiotic non-denial denial game. Which is why I strongly suspect the above poster is in fact a sociopath.
In this case we have the classic "Godwin Fixation"
To be clear, Godwin's law applies to the spurious use of comparisons to Hitler and the Nazi's, in the discussion involved direct involvement in support of Hitler and the rebuilding of the German industrial and military base was being discussed and there is no historical doubt that many wealthy individuals in the western world and the corporations and banks they controlled played an essential part in the resumption of war in Europe in 1939 and the millions of deaths that followed. Few if any of those people were ever held responsible. Pretending this isn't the case is close to or full on Holocaust denial, either with outright contradicting the facts or playing some idiotic non-denial denial game. Which is why I strongly suspect the above poster is in fact a sociopath. Or just an every day jerk.

That’s all you got left…name-calling. :lol:
That still beats having to listen to you talk about conspiracy theories.
Or did you want to continue telling everybody how IBM secretly facilitated the Holocaust?
Or how bankers invested in Germany? Whew! What a revelation.
How did they keep that secret?
C’mon Doug, let’s here more about Ford and Nestles. Enlighten us all.

The information has already been provided.
You choose to ridicule since you got nothing else going for you.
Besides, it’s all same as it ever was, war profiteering has been one of the few growth enterprises these past few decades.
But, the resultant desperate shape of human relations and or refugees and the wide spread misery left in the wake of all these contrived war’s and insurrections, goes unseen, unrecognized, on the way to the nice cocktail lounge where the successful people gather, to brag about their toys.