Question for all

Religion and Secularism
21

“It’s a question for everyone on this list, theist and atheist alike. Knowing what you know about the character of Jesus, as described in the bible, what do you think his position would be? Surely you can speculate.”

Going by the descriptions of Jesus’ teachings and his behaviour as described in the Bible. Is it really this simple: (?)

Jesus said the greatest commandment was to love God. Second only to that commandment was “love your neighbour as yourself” Mark 12:31 “The second is this: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

Jesus was pressed, being asked “who is my neighbour?” In response , he told the parable of The Good Samaritan. The meaning drawn is that everyman is my neighbour.

The example of the Samaritan is lost on modern, non Jewish readers. These people were (and are) a minor sect of Jews, not even considered “real jews” by mainstream Jewry. I think this may still be the case.

So, a despised Samaritan helped one who reviled him and his people. Not sure of a good modern analogy. Perhaps a badly injured member of the KKK in full robes, in say Alabama ca 1920, being helped by a black man.

So, Mexicans, all of them, are our neighbours according to my understanding of the bible. There is no wriggle room. It has always bemused me that the second greatest commandment is probably the most ignored by Christians of all flavours.

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Caveat: I consider the New Testament the mythology of Christianity, we really have no idea of much at all about Jesus, his life or his teachings. However ,still an interesting exercise. I’d be really interested in asking some devout Christians of different sects for their take, beginning with asking if they agree about “love your neighbour” then perhaps ask how they obey that commandment.

When I was a teen, the cri de coeur of adolescents who left Christianity was that"they’re just a bunch of hypocrites!" An interesting ,and accurate observation, if simplistic. Jesus has some harsh words about hypocrisy, when speaking of the Scribes and the Pharisees and Sadducees. Plus those about to stone a woman who committed adultery:

Matt:23 1-12 on the hypocrisy of the Scribes and Pharisees. It’s a long passage, s0 I won’t quote it here

On the woman who committed adultery: John 8:7 "When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”

22

 

Maybe these will help

 

Isaiah 58:10
And if you give yourself to the hungry And satisfy the desire of the afflicted, Then your light will rise in darkness And your gloom will become like midday.

Matthew 5:42
"Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

Matthew 6:1-4
"Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven. "So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. "But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,read more.

Matthew 25:35
'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;

Luke 10:35
"On the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I return I will repay you.’

Luke 11:41
"But give that which is within as charity, and then all things are clean for you.

Luke 12:33
"Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys.

Luke 14:13
"But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,

Luke 18:22
When Jesus heard this, He said to him, “One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Luke 19:8
Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much.”

1 Timothy 6:18
Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

1 John 3:17
But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

23

@Lois

Helpful? Not sure; I was trying to work from first principles, keeping it as simple as I could. I think I made my point.

Yes, it’s interesting, quite, but not overly, especially with the peanut gallery hovering to insert inanities.

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TimB: BTW, Jesus is a mythical figure, but is still an important figure in a story that has shaped much of the cultural development of modern societies. Spiderman, not as much so.

Lois: You and I know Jesus was a mythical figure, but a lot of people don’t. They truly believe he was a real person, the son of god and a god in his own right, sent to earth to save them. . But they ignore what he said, anyway, if it’s inconvenient. That’s theistic religion for you.

 

 

25

Only an imbecile would post such a question to non christians ie the majority

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No Lois I did not manage to rewrite the bible. What books did Jesus write in the bible? You quote people who may have never even met Jesus. No doubt you had your data before you posted. That’s why I said there are so many different types of Jesus’s in the minds of people today. And you took Paul’s pathway of the bible. No secret that Jesus was a Sadducee, which meant he was of the Hellenistic Jewish religion. Which was a deist religion. Basically, an atheist that use religion as a form of controlling civilization. Point being, with the data that has been literally dug up and made available to us in the last fifty years we now have the ability to view the pathway that Jesus may have used.

I may not have managed to rewrite the bible, but Thomas Jefferson did. The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth. Is a deist bible put together by Jefferson. No secret that Jesus was a Sadducee, which meant he was of the Hellenistic Jewish religion. Which was a deist religion. Basically, an atheist that use religion as a form of controlling civilization. We know that Jefferson knew and use the thinking’s of the Greek philosophers along with Adams and Franklin and others to put Jesus’s method of civilization management into use.

[As a sniveling, manipulative Republican, you manage to rewrite the bible to your own ends. Nothing new.]

Lois if you are going to troll, then what’s your point? If you want to argue about the bible. Then say so and I will not respond. You and Lausten are no doubt bible people. I am not. I want to understand our history is all. I asked in a post if “Jesus owned slaves”. You and Lausten could not step outside of the bible. I don’t think you really have any real knowledge of Jesus outside of the bible. Your post is misleading. It is not about what Jesus the human would have thought about the Mexican border, it is what is the Christian Jesus is thinking about the border.

19:30 He said: “I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet.” This is Jesus’s saying in the Quran. That is saying Jesus is just passing on the words of god. Therefore, whatever his position would be about the Mexican border would be the position of God.

I took the pathway of Jefferson, Adams and Franklin. Sorry, that as an America you don’t know that pathway. As an intellectual exercise your exercise is very limited and lacking in intelligence needed for true results. I don’t think you have the basic knowledge of the subject matter. Try again in just the Christian pathway and you should do ok.

27

ouch.

Player, don’t play with her. She’s been around. You keep it short and cute, she knows her topic.

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well, that was for bottom of page one

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Only an imbecile would post such a question to non christians ie the majority
Sometimes you'd be better off deleting, before posting.

As mentioned Jesus is a much a cultural figure, icon, as “GOD” to some.

I’ll toss my lot with Patrick D. June 4, 2019 at 1:31 am on this one.

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But not the majority

31

“You and I know Jesus was a mythical figure, but a lot of people don’t”

Not sure that’s entirely true, unless you mean the Jesus of The New Testament, who is almost certainly myth…

That Jesus has not been proved to have existed historically does not prove he did not exist. The ‘he’ to whom I refer is a wondering rabbi, called something like Yeshua/Yoshua bar Yusuf, who was probably preaching some time during the reign of the emperor Tiberius.He probably managed to upset the wrong people and get himself executed by the Romans for sedition. Judea was arse deep in itinerant rabbis at that time. Nor was it at all uncommon for a Jew to be crucified. Yeshua founded a small, Jewish sect, which would have faded into a well deserve obscurity had not Paul of Tarsus stuck his oar in and invented the religion which became Christianity…

Christianity has nothing to do with the man called Yeshua bar Yusuf.

The historicity of Jesu has never been established. From what I understand, AT BEST , mainstream scholars accept that he probably existed. I’m happy with that because I make so few other concessions. I can also accept the position of him being mythical, root and branch. So I guess here I’m as much clarifying my own position as arguing the point

 

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Not the Torah, nor the New Testament, not the Q’uran nor the Hadith are history books. They are the mythology of the three Abrahamic religions. Together and separately, they are proof of exactly nothing.

Not the best idea trying to argue with an atheist, claiming sacred texts as proof of , well, anything.

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You and I know Jesus was a mythical figure, but a lot of people don’t”

Patrick D. Not sure that’s entirely true, unless you mean the Jesus of The New Testament, who is almost certainly myth…

<b>Lois: Some 2 Billion people the world over say he was not a myth and that he was an actual human being who became god. If people believe that and act on it, it doesn’t matter if Jesus is a myth. </b>

That Jesus has not been proved to have existed historically does not prove he did not exist. The ‘he’ to whom I refer is a wondering rabbi, called something like Yeshua/Yoshua bar Yusuf, who was probably preaching some time during the reign of the emperor Tiberius.He probably managed to upset the wrong people and get himself executed by the Romans for sedition. Judea was arse deep in itinerant rabbis at that time. Nor was it at all uncommon for a Jew to be crucified. Yeshua founded a small, Jewish sect, which would have faded into a well deserve obscurity had not Paul of Tarsus stuck his oar in and invented the religion which became Christianity…

Christianity has nothing to do with the man called Yeshua bar Yusuf.

 

<b>Lois: tell that to the 2 billion. </b>

<b>The historicity of Jesu has never been established. </b>

<b>No god has ever been established. Believers don’t need or want evidence. They have faith. </b>

 

From what I understand, AT BEST , mainstream scholars accept that he probably existed. I’m happy with that because I make so few other concessions. I can also accept the position of him being mythical, root and branch. So I guess here I’m as much clarifying my own position as arguing the point

<b>Lois: Good. IMO that’s the right attitude to take but neither of us will ever convince the 2 billion that we’re right. They KNOW what they believe. </b>

 

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Not the Torah, nor the New Testament, not the Q’uran nor the Hadith are history books. They are the mythology of the three Abrahamic religions. Together and separately, they are proof of exactly nothing.

Not the best idea trying to argue with an atheist, claiming sacred texts as proof of , well, anything.

<b>Lois: It’s pretty useless to argue with an atheist about any religion or belief. Most atheists know more about the bible than Christians do and are intellectually superior.</b>

33

Mike Yohe

You and Lausten could not step outside of the bible. I don’t think you really have any real knowledge of Jesus outside of the bible. Your post is misleading. It is not about what Jesus the human would have thought about the Mexican border, it is what is the Christian Jesus is thinking about the border.

Lois: do YOU have any knowledge of Jesus outside of the Bible? If so, please cite it, you can’t blame Lausten or me for not having any information outside the bible, there isn’t anything of any value about Jesus outside the bible.

You have no idea what I meant by my question.

Jefferson did not rewrite the bible, all he did was take out everything that was not a purported direct quote from Jesus. Jefferson didn’t add one word of his own nor did he change one word.

 

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Player: Only an imbecile would post such a question to non christians ie the majority

I didn’t post to non-Christians, it was posted to anyone who might be interested in the question, assuming Christians and non-Christians alike would know their own minds. Did you think you were somehow required to respond?

 

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Thanks, CC.

36

@Mikyohe

“You’re just ignorant” is a common ad hominem attack, not an argument.

You have no way of knowing what I’ve read and studied privately over the last 45 years, or at university.

There are no such things as truths’ or ‘facts’ about Jesus; he wrote nothing himself, and nothing was written about him for a least two human generations after his death. IE There are NO eyewitness accounts about his life or his teachings . EVERYTHING written about him is hearsay. TheNew testament is the mythology of Christianity. No extra biblical sources are any more factual.

Having actually read the Q’uran, I’m aware of the Islamic teachings about “Isa”. If anything, the Q’uran is even more fanciful than the New Testament. EG: The Prophet and his flying horse. Far more egregious is that great chunks of the Q’uran were lifted from the Torah. Islam is a literal derivative of Judaism, not its perfection.

I’m aware of various esoteric traditions about Jesus, including the ‘truth’ about the missing years, and alleged time in India. The ex-biblical accounts I’ve read over years are more fanciful than the Torah, New Testament and Q’uran put together. They are without exception, fantasy, conjecture romantic drivel.

I don’t care about your personal superstitions, until you insist on their validity. My objection is there is no proof for any of your claims. Religious beliefs are based on faith, and are impervious to facts or reason. This is how it has to be because religious claims about say the existence of god, or what Jesus really said and did, are unfalsifiable .IE they cannot be disproved.

That a claim cannot be disproved does not make the claim true. (Look up “Russell’s teapot”)

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I assume that there was a person named Jesus who lived in those days, and who is the person originally associated with the Christian mythology of Jesus. The mythological version is the important one, imo. And that one, if consistent with his mythology, would have been exhorting us to help the asylum seekers who arrive at our borders.

38

“I assume that there was a person named Jesus who lived in those days, and who is the person originally associated with the Christian mythology of Jesus”

Certainly possible. Equally possible that this obscure little rabbi and his obscure little sect were usurped by Paul and others. First with the association with Jewish mythology (the messiah). Later with additions, such as the virgin birth and the resurrection.

Worth remembering that Christianity contained no new ideas. At the time, it was similar to some of the mystery religions. There was a point at which Mithraism came close to becoming a major religion instead of Christianity.