Gerrymandering has almost always worked in the favour of the Repugs. As you may have noticed, MO called the winner the night of the election a few hours after our polls closed. IMHO, they probably didn’t count the mail in votes. MO is heavily gerrymandered. Thus, why I think if there should be any recounts, it should be in states like MO and they count ALL the votes, not just the Repug votes.
Yes gerrymandering, and for states like the Dakotas there is a big electoral college advantage already built in. The one we really exposed though, well, Stacey Abrams did, just register 800,000 disenfranchised people and all of a sudden a Southern stronghold is a swing state. I think we’ll start to see other dominoes fall soon.
IMHO, gerrymandering is one of the political things we need to get rid of, besides the E.C.
@mriana Gerrymandering is a huge problem which does need to be done away with, absolutely. Republicans use every trick in the books to cheat, sometimes illegally, but mostly legally.
I really don’t like the talk about Trump cheating, though. He did not get the popular vote last time either, and by a lot, but he did legitimately win the electoral college. He absolutely didn’t do it on purpose as he claimed to have done, but he did legitimately win last time and almost legitimately won this time.
Our system is very robust, with both sides, independents and foreign governments watching our polls closely. This whole rhetoric of paying people off and not counting votes isn’t realistic. It’s not realistic when the other side does it, it’s not realistic when our side does it. It would be virtually impossible. And though it pains me greatly to say it, Donald J Trump is MY president right now. I didn’t vote for him, I’d be happy to kick him in the ass on the way out, but he is my president. I didn’t accept that rhetoric from the other side saying, “Obama is not MY president”, so I can’t accept it for my side either. Unlike the Republicans our side has standards and honor and values truth. I feel your pain, as do the families of about a quarter million people confirmed to have been killed by Covid, but this rhetoric does more harm than good.
@widdershins You might not like it, but even now that’s what he’s attempting to do- lie, cheat, and steal this election. What makes you think he didn’t steal the last election? Nothing he’s done in his life has been legit, not even running and campaigning for this election. He’s murdered thousands of people via the pandemic and those on the border ordering the border guards cage them despite flu and COVID. He’s kidnapped children (rather had them kidnapped) and lost them in the system. He’s a criminal no matter how you try to spin it and now he’s bordering on treason.
I respect and like you very much, so I hope you will take this as the friendly wake-up slap it’s intended to be and not a personal insult. You sound like a Trump supporter when you spew claims of election fraud with no evidence to back it and partisan hyperbole where you use the strongest language you possibly can to describe something you see as wrong, even though it doesn’t technically fit. You are better than them, so be better than them.
@widdershins No, I despise that murderous orange creature, who is a sociopath, and have never voted for him. Now if I were a dotard supporter, why would I be accusing him of lying, cheating and stealing? Seems to me you’re very confuse as to what a dotard supporter is and it certainly isn’t me. Dumpster people are part of the dotard’s Cult 45 and worship him. I’d sooner spit on his grave. Besides, there is evidence that the dotard had help from Russia last election and even encouraged them to rig the election in his favour on national TV. He’s even attempting to steal the election again, as he goes from on court to another, but courts aren’t feeding his ego. So there is evidence he is attempting and has attempted to lie cheat and steal. Dumpster people would not accuse him of lying, cheating and stealing, for they believe that disgusting orange creature can do no wrong, but he’s a criminal, who needs to serve time in prison- not just for what I just said, but also for crimes against humanity, which is a longer list.
I think the comparison Widdershins is making is something called “horseshoe” theory. i’ll find a link later. Basically, it starts at the top of the horseshoe with centrists, then you go to the Left or Right, but it also curves down in terms of extremism. This makes the horseshoe pattern, when the Left and Right begin to sound similar in their most extremes expressions.
Now, I don’t think this does apply to mriana. That’s one of the problems with the theory, it opens up this analysis of “you sound just like” anytime someone expresses a strong opinion.
I have seen the phenomenon actually play out though. People who were once very liberal, get frustrated with their own party/culture, start to explore unsubstantiated theories about ballot machines, vaccines, or listening to some fringe member of the Kennedy family, then they lose the ability to rationally evaluate evidence. They find other radical extremists who might be leftist but they are okay with guns or something, or with violent overthrow, or just not voting. Whatever, that leads to them jumping to a completely different political viewpoint, but to them it makes perfect sense. They’ll say the Left pushed them away or some nonsense.
First, I was unfamiliar with horseshoe theory, so I wasn’t intentionally making that comparison.
Second, I never said you were a Trump supporter. Believe me, you’ve left no doubt about your feelings for him. I was simply comparing your claims of election fraud without evidence in the 2016 elections to their claims of election fraud without evidence in the 2020 elections.
To be clear, I did not take issue with anything you meant, just the way you said it. I will point out the specific issues I have.
But first, let me apologize for my poor wording. It was NEVER my intention to suggest that you, in any way, support, voted for, accept or tolerate Trump or to make you feel as if I was suggesting that. I do know that you have a burning hatred for the man and that this isn’t a new development and I did not intend to suggest otherwise.
Now onto the specific things I take issue with. He didn’t “murder” anyone. I think the best you could accuse him of is negligent homicide, and you could make a very good case for it. But that’s not “murder”. Using the word “murder” is hyperbole in the same way it is when the other side calls abortion “murder”.
Next, he didn’t “kidnap” anyone. He ordered the separation of children from their parents at the border AND he botched it so badly that it is proving impossible to reunite them. And yes, that is horrendous. If it’s not illegal it certainly should be. But if it is, the charge would not be “kidnapping”. That word is hyperbole.
And finally, the biggest issue, that he stole the 2016 election. Based on what evidence? There is no evidence to suggest anything untoward happened in the 2016 election except the normal gerrymandering which both sides do, the Republicans just do it much, much better. And yes, that is because they are sleazy, power hunger totalitarians who don’t let any pesky conscious get in their way. And yes, it is very, very wrong that a candidate can lose the popular vote by million and still win. But that’s the system we have and it’s the system we have always had. There is no argument, none whatsoever, to be made that he stole or bought the 2016 election or cheated any more than is permissible by law.
That last one is why I said that you are sounding like a Trump supporter, NOT meaning that it sounded like you support Trump, but that you are making unfounded and unevidenced claims of election fraud in the 2016 election just as they are in the 2020 election.
Once again I deeply apologize for the confusion there. The way you took that must have been like a punch to the gut. I can tell from the way you post every time Trump comes up that actually calling you “a Trump supporter” is about the lowest blow someone could deliver to you and it was definitely not my intention to take a cheap shot like that. I was simply comparing your rhetoric to theirs.
I have a very difficult time letting inaccurate information pass without pointing it out. I have ruined many a joke because when someone said something which wasn’t right, I immediately correct them without thought and then realize they’re screwing with the person about 10 seconds later. And it is my firm belief that the rhetoric and hyperbole of the right is one thing that is seriously wrong with this country. While I think it’s definitely time for Democrats to start going low once in a while, I believe that once they devolve to the same level of dishonesty as Republicans the country is screwed. There will no longer by any voice of reason. Nobody who can be trusted. Everyone will pick a side and hate the other. The country can’t survive like that. It’s already pretty screwed up just from Republicans doing it for 30 years. If both sides do it, if the only voices we hear are the crazy doomsayers on each side, if there’s nobody who can be trusted to be honest with us then nobody will trust the government, we’ll all become preppers and build bunkers and, sooner or later, one side or the other will make what both sides fear is coming a reality. Many on the right already want a civil war. If the left works people up with rhetoric and, let’s call it what it is, lies then both sides will want a civil war and we’ll get one. Then you’ll see some real kidnapping and murder.
There is no evidence to suggest anything untoward happened in the 2016 election except the normal gerrymandering which both sides do, the Republicans just do it much, much better. -- WiddershinsTrump has done so many things since, this seems like small potatoes. Before getting elected, he, well, his people, met with Russia to get dirt. At the time Wikileaks was getting some of the hacked data from the DNC, Bannon changed his strategy to focus on Michigan and Ohio. Without those states, Hillary would have won.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/31/politics/trump-tower-meeting-timeline/index.html
I did not say there was fraud in the 2020 election. Quite the contrary. The dotard did and he’s attempting to steal the election by jumping from court to court until he finds a judge that will stroke his sociopathic ego and overturn the election in his favour. It’s not going to happen, but he did fire the man who told the truth that there was no fraud in this election and President Biden won fair and square. BTW, I can say that anyway I want, the truth is, the dotard is attempting to cheat and steal the election, plain and simple, but he’s not succeeding.
One more thing, he IS murdering people right and left by allowing the pandemic to rage through the U.S. IMHO, a president/leader who does nothing about a pandemic in his country is committing murder. He also had people killed at the border, which is also murder- indirectly, but still murder. He also kidnapped children, via ICE, ripping them away from their parent(s), destroying their childhood. All of this are crimes against humanity and I will not back down on that. The dotard is a murderer, a kidnapper, and all around criminal. I’m just sorry you like him so much not to see any of this, but it is what it is and a spade should be called a spade. Please don’t downgrade it to something it’s not.
Again, you misread what I said. TRUMP is claiming fraud in the 2020 elections without evidence. YOU are claiming fraud in the 2016 election without evidence. All I am saying is that your claim that Trump stole or bought the 2016 election is materially no difference than his claims that Biden stole the 2020 election. Yes, Trump is a bad man and Biden is not. But that doesn’t make a claim without evidence any different than a claim without evidence.
And I do not disagree that there is the potential for actual criminal charges for the failed pandemic response. Negligent homicide, dereliction of duties, maybe some other charges about giving false medical information resulting in countless deaths, but it is impossible for a “murder” charge. It is not “murder”. Emotionally, it sure as hell feels like it. But there is no factual, reality-based case to be made for “murder”.
I think the big difference between us here is that you are very, very passionate in your hatred for Trump and I try to put passion aside when assessing something. We really don’t disagree on very much at all. I don’t take exception with anything you think about Trump, only the hyperbole.
YOU are claiming fraud in the 2016 election without evidence. -- WiddershinsOf course there is evidence. There just isn't a court that can present that evidence with the power to prosecute once it determines guilt. We have Mueller, the Republican led committee report, and the trail of connections that have been openly stated. Even if you dismiss all of that, we have an environment of AI data collection and people with the skills to manipulate it. They don't need to get together in a room somewhere and have someone hide a recording device so we hear about it. Instead, every powerful Republican leader says, "well, it's just Trump. He has the right to put out those lawsuits. He's only calling for legal votes. It's no problem." That's open signalling that they won't stop him, won't sanction him, and that they want another one just like him only smarter and less volatile.
OTOH Widdershins, in another context, a different forum, I would not use the language that mriana is using. We do need to learn how to speak across the divide. We also need our own spaces where we can speak freely. It’s different these days because those private spaces are public.
I was just listening to a podcast this morning on this very topic. It’s kinda long. I’ll try to find some time to make some timestamps. I think it’s around an hour in where they talk about his Haitian wife and how he learned to get the respect of the Haitian people so he could do his work with education.
At the end, they mention Magaret Wheatley’s “Islands of Sanity”, might be another way to look at it.
I disagree with your assessment that there is evidence that “Trump stole the 2016 election”. Russia interfered and the Trump campaign welcomed that interference. That is a fact. No evidence of collusion? Trump Jr’s emails IS absolute, irrefutable evidence of at least attempted collusion. Collusion absolutely happened. And there was the data mining used to manipulate people. That absolutely happened. And there was the bullshit Benghazi investigation which mysteriously wrapped up exactly one week before the electoral college met in 2016, after it was no longer politically useful. And then there was that jackass Comey, who broke every norm in announcing another trumped up investigation 11 days before the election. And there’s also Hillary’s 2.8 million popular vote advantage. There was a SHITLOAD of cheating. I have no doubt about that. It happens every election and Republicans do the vast majority of it.
BUT all ANY of that did was change how people voted and ignore the majority in the country for the majorities in states, the way it has always, always been done. You can’t “steal an election” by counting the votes and declaring a winner. The election was fair (as fair as it ever is) and Hillary lost, the end. Nobody “stole” anything. In fact, she conceded on, I believe, November 6th. No whining, no court cases, no crying foul, just “You won. Congratulations.” If the multimillionaire with dozens of high-priced lawyers who actually lost the election doesn’t see fraud then there likely isn’t any evidence of fraud. It’s not “fair”. But that’s not the same as not “legitimate”.
“Russia interfered and the Trump campaign welcomed that interference”
Russia didnt invade and hold the elections under gunpoint did they? Russia didnt hack into voting machines and change peoples votes did they? Russia didnt take over american minds to vote for trump.
“The election was fair (as fair as it ever is) and Hillary lost, the end. Nobody “stole” anything.”
This is true. She had nothing for offer to the working class
@anton Computer hackers don’t need a gun to interfere with elections or anything else and Russia has a lot of hackers, especially those that Putin has on his team. BTW, the U.S. government has their own hackers too. Now days screwing with countries only takes a computer and hacking skills.
Russia didnt invade and hold the elections under gunpoint did they? Russia didnt hack into voting machines and change peoples votes did they? Russia didnt take over american minds to vote for trump.If you read what I posted I said exactly what Russia did and made none of those claims. I said that Russia interfered with our election, which they absolutely did for the US and several other countries. That part of your post is what's known as "reductio ad absurdum", a logical fallacy commonly used by those with no real arugment.
This is true. She had nothing for offer to the working classA win in the popular vote by 2.8 million votes, or 2.1%, says otherwise. She lost ONLY due to Republican gerrymandering to manipulate the electoral college. The electoral college is the law of the land, so she did lose. But she lost due to legalized cheating, not because "she lost". In fact, in the last 8 presidential elections there was only a single "fair" Republican win and that win wouldn't have even happened if the first election Jr was in hadn't been won by losing.
In short, if you’re on the side that hasn’t been able to pull off a single legitimate “win” in 30 years you really shouldn’t be talking shit about the opposing candidates.
"A win in the popular vote by 2.8 million votes, or 2.1%, says otherwise:
Lost the working class vote in the rust belt states where democrats neoliberial policies really hit hard. This is on the back of the favourability rating of the Democratic Party being the lowest ever during the Obama years
“I said that Russia interfered with our election, which they absolutely did for the US and several other countries”
It cannot be demostrated that one vote was changed because of this so called interference so why the blame game and not taking responsibility for the Party’s out of touch policies?
It cannot be demostrated that one vote was changed because of this so called interference so why the blame game and not taking responsibility for the Party’s out of touch policies? -- antonThis is not really to anton, since he doesn't care about much other than getting to type some more.
There is no chart, no meme, no saying that can explain artificial intelligence. By definition, it uses data that is so large, no human effort could replace the amount of processing done by machine needed to analyze it. By definition, you can explain the algorithms, but you can’t hand calculate a result or use any other alternate method to figure out if the result is correct. It’s not really even correct in a mathematical sense, it’s predictive, the result is a probability. An AI chess computer will give you a move and a percent probability the move will result in mate.
In advertising, which is what an election is, you create a profile of people, but there aren’t actual people to match it. You can’t find the person who was going to vote one way, then saw your AI facebook post and voted another way. The demonstration of the effectiveness is the result of the votes of 150 million people. And yes, anton, policies matter and how a candidate presents themselves matter.
Even if you can’t understand it, the question you gotta ask is, why are powerful people who have lots of money spending their money on this data? Why are they collecting so much information on you? Why are they paying people so much to write those algorithms? This is not a conspiracy theory and it’s not an invisible force. You can find the receipts for every dollar spent and the meeting notes for why they are doing it. There is no belief system required.