By the way a crushing police state really isn't conducive to any real expression of humanity, which is why I feel so strongly about this. And why I think people who support the ongoing destruction of any real freedom in what are supposed to be free societies are right up there with the fascists of yore.Yet you haven't given any examples of a Crushing Police State. I'm not being crushed. I don't know anybody who is being crushed. Am I missing something?
Fuzzy Logic-.....the ongoing destruction of any real freedom in what are supposed to be free societies....What does this even mean? You have no context. You probably have very little grasp of history. You obviously have no knowledge of law.
Fuzzy Logic-explain to me how giving up any real civil liberties protects us from idiots with too much power.Besides the fact that you are not even an American(if I'm not mistaken)first you tell me what Civil liberties you have given up. Go ahead, I'll wait.
By the way a crushing police state really isn't conducive to any real expression of humanity, which is why I feel so strongly about this. And why I think people who support the ongoing destruction of any real freedom in what are supposed to be free societies are right up there with the fascists of yore.Yet you haven't given any examples of a Crushing Police State. I'm not being crushed. I don't know anybody who is being crushed. Am I missing something? A conscience apparently, I see no indication this is other than a big game to you.
By the way a crushing police state really isn't conducive to any real expression of humanity, which is why I feel so strongly about this. And why I think people who support the ongoing destruction of any real freedom in what are supposed to be free societies are right up there with the fascists of yore.Yet you haven't given any examples of a Crushing Police State. I'm not being crushed. I don't know anybody who is being crushed. Am I missing something? A conscience apparently, I see no indication this is other than a big game to you. Are you going to contribute here or not?
Did you have any examples of civil liberties you have lost Fuzzy?
I have read a LOT of Vyasma’s posts over the past few years, and to that extent, I think I can vouch for his head and his heart being in the right place, consistently.
That being said, Vyasma, as to your point about the law, it is legal for the POTUS to grant pardons. In this case, for the support of whistleblowers, in general, I think that he should.
I think that the government’s keeping secrets from the people in the name of “national security” has been a mechanism for abuse of power that may very well have lead to more problems, for the U.S. and the world, than it has avoided. I am NOT saying that there is no place for national security secrets. I AM saying that I think that the system for insuring that the secrets kept are actually protecting national security (and not just protecting the interests of the secret keepers) is seriously out of whack. Whistleblowers are a potential mechanism for addressing such abuses.
I have read a LOT of Vyasma's posts over the past few years, and to that extent, I think I can vouch for his head and his heart being in the right place, consistently. That being said, Vyasma, as to your point about the law, it is legal for the POTUS to grant pardons. In this case, for the support of whistleblowers, in general, I think that he should. I think that the government's keeping secrets from the people in the name of "national security" has been a mechanism for abuse of power that may very well have lead to more problems, for the U.S. and the world, than it has avoided. I am NOT saying that there is no place for national security secrets. I AM saying that I think that the system for insuring that the secrets kept are actually protecting national security (and not just protecting the interests of the secret keepers) is seriously out of whack. Whistleblowers are a potential mechanism for addressing such abuses.I totally agree Tim. I alluded to that in my last post to you. Concerning the positive effects of this Snowden affair. I'm not against checks and balances and then checking them again. And firing people! And changing the rules and the laws etc. If Snowden was pardoned for support for whistleblowers....hmmnn? Like I said, if it makes people feel better...that's the only real thing it will do. Snowden engaged in treason or near treasonous activity. This could lead to a conversation on where we move the goal post on what constitutes treason. That leads into fantasy land. In otherwords what is the balance between perceptions of security versus perceptions of threats. I'm totally for pardons and whistleblowers. I don't think it applies to Snowden. I think there is a lot of hyperbole and opportunism by various press and media organs. That's me.
I have read a LOT of Vyasma's posts over the past few years, and to that extent, I think I can vouch for his head and his heart being in the right place, consistently.In this case I think he's dead wrong and arrogant for trying to disqualify my views by passing then off as being merely leftist. I encounter this more and more and it's utter nonsense. Being committed to a free and open society based on respect for basic ethics and morals(such as don't destroy the environment that makes it possible to be here in the first place and don't enslave other people) makes someone a humanist in my view and someone who's pandering to the status quo however unjust is showing little regard for the interests of their fellow humans.
Being committed to a free and open society based on respect for basic ethics and morals(such as don't destroy the environment that makes it possible to be here in the first place and don't enslave other people) makes someone a humanist in my view and someone who's pandering to the status quo however unjust is showing little regard for the interests of their fellow humans.This is why I can't engage you in any debate. You don't even have a topic. Are you talking about ecology now, or the Bush 9/11 meme? Plus you accuse me of being a Nazi and go along with other people's childish banter as if you're all ganging up on me and making fun of me on the schoolyard. I am still waiting for you to tell me some of the civil liberties that have been taken away from you. What basic ethics and morals do you think have been violated?
Being committed to a free and open society based on respect for basic ethics and morals(such as don't destroy the environment that makes it possible to be here in the first place and don't enslave other people) makes someone a humanist in my view and someone who's pandering to the status quo however unjust is showing little regard for the interests of their fellow humans.This is why I can't engage you in any debate. You don't even have a topic. Are you talking about ecology now, or the Bush 9/11 meme? Plus you accuse me of being a Nazi and go along with other people's childish banter as if you're all ganging up on me and making fun of me on the schoolyard. I am still waiting for you to tell me some of the civil liberties that have been taken away from you. What basic ethics and morals do you think have been violated? I get the impression it's all just some clever game for you, it's about real people and not just some concepts. And I guarantee you, if you walk on what's important to me in an emotionless attempt to "make your point" you're going to get a real human reaction.
I get the impression it's all just some clever game for you, it's about real people and not just some concepts. And I guarantee you, if you walk on what's important to me in an emotionless attempt to "make your point" you're going to get a real human reaction.:lol: You're a flake.
I get the impression it's all just some clever game for you, it's about real people and not just some concepts. And I guarantee you, if you walk on what's important to me in an emotionless attempt to "make your point" you're going to get a real human reaction.:lol: You're a flake. My family goes back in America to before the nation even existed and members have fought in all the important wars, I take freedom and liberty there very seriously. What do you stand for, from what I see there's not much inside someone who thinks what's going on now in the nation is justified or even Constitutionally legal. And some mumbo-jumbo about being a humanist doesn't cut it when functionally you come across pretty much as a fascist.
My family goes back in America to before the nation even existed and members have fought in all the important wars, I take freedom and liberty there very seriously. What do you stand for, from what I see there's not much inside someone who thinks what's going on now in the nation is justified or even Constitutionally legal. And some mumbo-jumbo about being a humanist doesn't cut it when functionally you come across pretty much as a fascist.We're you going to tell me what civil liberties have been taken away from you or not? Maybe you can also tell me "what is going on now in the nation" while you're at it. Or is going to be more emotional, weepy screeds?
This is why I think the US is becoming a crushing police state btw.
http://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/viewthread/17148/
And why someone who claims all is fine and we need to treat someone like Snowden as a traitor might just be a closet fascist.
I lost family fighting those bastards, I don’t need to put up with crap from one here.
My family goes back in America to before the nation even existed and members have fought in all the important wars, I take freedom and liberty there very seriously. What do you stand for, from what I see there's not much inside someone who thinks what's going on now in the nation is justified or even Constitutionally legal. And some mumbo-jumbo about being a humanist doesn't cut it when functionally you come across pretty much as a fascist.We're you going to tell me what civil liberties have been taken away from you or not? Maybe you can also tell me "what is going on now in the nation" while you're at it. Or is going to be more emotional, weepy screeds? Read the thread I posted idiot.
If you think there is such a thing as treason to begin with, what would it be?
I’m still waiting for you to tell me what civil liberties you have lost.
If you think there is such a thing as treason to begin with, what would it be? I'm still waiting for you to tell me what civil liberties you have lost.Read the thread to the bottom, we're all affected. And if you don't understand that then why are you even commenting on this subject? My guess is it's just to get a rise out of someone who actually does care, which makes any further discussion with you pointless.
If you think there is such a thing as treason to begin with, what would it be? I'm still waiting for you to tell me what civil liberties you have lost.Although impolite about referencing it, he gave the link to the topic he posted re: civil liberties under attack in our society at large. http://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/viewthread/17148/ AFAIK, I, personally, have not lost any civil liberties and Fuzzy may not have either. Still if some members of society are having their civil liberties attacked, then it should be a matter of concern for all of us, IMO. Re what constitutes treason, isn't it something like: providing aid and comfort to the enemy in time of war and/or advocating the violent overthrow of the government? (I would look it up, but I'm in the middle of this post.) What about when government agencies (e.g., the NSA and CIA) abuse their power and obfuscate it so that Congressional or other oversight becomes ineffectual. Could that be considered treasonous?
Read the thread to the bottom, we're all affected. And if you don't understand that then why are you even commenting on this subject? My guess is it's just to get a rise out of someone who actually does care, which makes any further discussion with you pointless.I would be commenting on the subject because I don't agree that Snowden should be pardoned. I also don't subscribe to your hyper-paranoid, fatalist views. I'm commenting because I wanted to talk about Snowden being pardoned. I wasn't counting on getting sucked into a prolonged discussion about your worldview on everything from Bush to 9/11 to Global Warming to perceived freedoms being taken away.